Cabinet pores over report on preliminary IMF talks

[Tuff Gong]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">here is one option

externalize the debt.....dollarize.....default (in that order) </div></div>
Except for <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Default</span> what problems that we currently have would the first two options solve? </div></div>First thing is that externalization is not an economic principle. It is an accounting principle use to hide expenses and deceive the unwitting about the real value of an entity. i will not accept externalization as a solution. It is in reality a sure way to postpone the problem and then have it ballooning on you when those external entities have to be settled. </div></div>

Are you sure you know what you are talking about here?
Isn't it generally agreed that most of the local GOJ debt is locally owned and that is what RichD means when he say externalize to sell the debt abroad?

In any case are you agreeing or disagreeing that is will be part of a solution. If so a solution to what?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=RichD]here is one option

externalize the debt.....dollarize.....default (in that order) </div></div>
Except for <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Default</span> what problems that we currently have would the first two options solve? </div></div>First thing is that externalization is not an economic principle. It is an accounting principle use to hide expenses and deceive the unwitting about the real value of an entity. i will not accept externalization as a solution. It is in reality a sure way to postpone the problem and then have it ballooning on you when those external entities have to be settled. </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Are you sure you know what you are talking about here?
Isn't it generally agreed that most of the local GOJ debt is locally owned and that is what RichD means when he say externalize to sell the debt abroad?

In any case are you agreeing or disagreeing that is will be part of a solution. If so a solution to what?
</div></div> No that is not what it means. Look up externality if you want to see what it really means. Anyway you can't force foreigners to buy you debt. You can't force locals to sell it ti foreigners either. So that make no sense.

OK let me post a definition of it here.<span style="color: #CC0000">

Externality
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&quot;External&quot; redirects here. For other uses, see External (disambiguation).
In economics, an externality or spillover of an economic transaction is an impact on a party that is not directly involved in the transaction. In such a case, prices do not reflect the full costs or benefits in production or consumption of a product or service. A positive impact is called an external benefit, while a negative impact is called an external cost. Producers and consumers in a market may either not bear all of the costs or not reap all of the benefits of the economic activity. For example, manufacturing that causes air pollution imposes costs on the whole society, while fire-proofing a home improves the fire safety of neighbors.

In a competitive market, the existence of externalities would cause either too much or too little of the good to be produced or consumed in terms of overall costs and benefits to society. If there exist external costs such as pollution, the good will be overproduced by a competitive market, as the producer does not take into account the external costs when producing the good. If there are external benefits, such as in areas of education or public safety, too little of the good would be produced by private markets as producers and buyers do not take into account the external benefits to others. Here, overall cost and benefit to society is defined as the sum of the economic benefits and costs for all parties involved.
</span>

[Amberal37]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">First thing is that externalization is not an economic principle. It is an accounting principle use to hide expenses </span>and deceive the unwitting about the real value of an entity. i will not accept externalization as a solution. It is in reality a sure way to postpone the problem and then have it ballooning on you when those external entities have to be settled. </div></div>

Ohhh...think I might see the problem...(Macro..micro (or mini)) - go figure Doc...

<span style="font-weight: bold">By the way...explain what YOUR interpretation of debt externalisation is pleeease...</span>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how do you suggest stabillity be achieved? </div></div>

It is a curious question because we were not discussing stability as an issue.
The key to solving all or most of Jamaica’s problems in an expansion of the economy. We need more avenues to earn money and we need for the existing ones to grow and become more profitable.

Propping up a dead currency of a dead economy is an exercise in futility in my books.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No that is not what it means. Look up externality if you want to see what it really means.</div></div>

My friend the best person to ask would be <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span>. Ask him what he means by Externalization of the Jamaican Debt. I think you have hopelessly mixed this whole thing up.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: amberal37</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">First thing is that externalization is not an economic principle. It is an accounting principle use to hide expenses </span>and deceive the unwitting about the real value of an entity. i will not accept externalization as a solution. It is in reality a sure way to postpone the problem and then have it ballooning on you when those external entities have to be settled. </div></div>

Ohhh...think I might see the problem...(Macro..micro (or mini)) - go figure Doc...

<span style="font-weight: bold">By the way...explain what YOUR interpretation of debt externalisation is pleeease...</span>


</div></div> It a process by which certain costs are disregarded in a attempt to achieve a favourable accounting results. Foer instance a mine will externalize th ecosts of polution abetement or corporations will externalize debts. thi sis very common in th ecurrent economic implosion the worlsd is experiencing.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how do you suggest stabillity be achieved? </div></div>

It is a curious question because we were not discussing stability as an issue.
The key to solving all or most of Jamaica’s problems in an expansion of the economy. We need more avenues to earn money and we need for the existing ones to grow and become more profitable.

Propping up a dead currency of a dead economy is an exercise in futility in my books. </div></div>The Economy cannot even begin t expand [b] until ther is stabilization of the currency. businesses have to know that the current will be what it is when they have to pay their suppliers for raw materials

[Tuff Gong]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: amberal37</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">By the way...explain what YOUR interpretation of debt externalisation is pleeease...</span>

</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It a process by which certain costs are disregarded in a attempt to achieve a favourable accounting results. Foer instance a mine will externalize th ecosts of polution abetement or corporations will externalize debts. thi sis very common in th ecurrent economic implosion the worlsd is experiencing. </div></div>

My friend I warn you stop before you lose your most ardent supporters you are barking down the wrong trail. Just ask <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span> what he means and we can move on from there.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]The Economy cannot even begin t expand [b] until ther is stabilization of the currency. businesses have to know that the current will be what it is when they have to pay their suppliers for raw materials </div></div>

That is not quite true, in any case the Jamaican currency has be relatively stable for nearly a decade and businesses in Jamaica has suffered and the economy has tanked...<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">next failed suggestion</span>!

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: amberal37</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">By the way...explain what YOUR interpretation of debt externalisation is pleeease...</span>

</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It a process by which certain costs are disregarded in a attempt to achieve a favourable accounting results. Foer instance a mine will externalize th ecosts of polution abetement or corporations will externalize debts. thi sis very common in th ecurrent economic implosion the worlsd is experiencing. </div></div>

My friend I warn you stop before you lose your most ardent supporters you are barking down the wrong trail. Just ask <span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">RichD</span> what he means and we can move on from there. </div></div>How many years have you senme posting here?
How many times have ai been wrong on economic projection?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many years have you senme posting here?
How many times have ai been wrong on economic projection? </div></div>
Over a decade.
You have most always been wrong on everything.
In any case the question of the moment is what RichD meant by externalization. This does nothing to answer the question.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many years have you senme posting here?
How many times have ai been wrong on economic projection? </div></div>
Over a decade.
You have most always been wrong on everything.
In any case the question of the moment is what RichD meant by externalization. This does nothing to answer the question.
</div></div> I have been wrong!! OK.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]The Economy cannot even begin t expand [b] until ther is stabilization of the currency. businesses have to know that the current will be what it is when they have to pay their suppliers for raw materials </div></div>

That is not quite true, in any case the Jamaican currency has be relatively stable for nearly a decade and businesses in Jamaica has suffered and the economy has tanked...<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">next failed suggestion</span>! </div></div> It is like saying that because you have to be alive to vote and because you did not vote you are not alive??
your logic is not logical at all.

[RichD]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you sure you know what you are talking about here?
Isn't it generally agreed that most of the local GOJ debt is locally owned and that is what RichD means when he say externalize to sell the debt abroad?

In any case are you agreeing or disagreeing that is will be part of a solution. If so a solution to what?
</div></div>that is exactly what im referring to when i say externalize....reduce the local economic exposure to any possible default. With things as they are right now if the GOJ was to default on debt it would be catastrophic locally (to the point of almost unrecoverablity).

[RichD]

Re: 'NO ALTERNATIVE THAN TO RESUME IMF BORROWING' - SHAW

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]The Economy cannot even begin t expand [b] until ther is stabilization of the currency. businesses have to know that the current will be what it is when they have to pay their suppliers for raw materials </div></div>

That is not quite true, in any case the Jamaican currency has be relatively stable for nearly a decade and businesses in Jamaica has suffered and the economy has tanked...<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">next failed suggestion</span>! </div></div> how can you call a 20% devaluation just in the last year stability?

100% since december 2000