Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[Blackstar*]

Especially compared to (formerly poor) Asian countries like Thailand, India, and China?

[little pepper]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Not aggressive & pushy enough?? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I just checked CIA World Facts & India GDP is still very low (and lower than JA's) but I hear they're trying hard to get some of China's business.

Seriously though, I don't know but suspect a lot of things, including their historically different encounters with foreigners - not as an excuse but maybe a reason as to how their economies developed.

And Chinese (and a lot of other Asians) definitely do business differently - as I said to a Jamaican cab driver once, if Chinee make a dollar, he spend 5 cents & put the rest into the business. Jamaican and a lot of westerners go and spend $1.50 so they have a new debt before they make any more money. The cabbie agreed with me.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Thanks for your response, little pepper. You have a point about individuals and by extension their leaders going for instant gratification.

I guess what is troubling me is that our (read "black") leaders around the world do not look out for the interests of the people who they are supposed to be serving. In addition, we seem to engage in self-destructive behavior without anyone forcing us to do so. Here are just a few examples off the top of my head:<ul type="square">[*]GOJ signed an agreement whereby it has to make up any shortfall in revenue for Bouygues if the GOJ establishes any form of transportation that would compete with the Portmore toll road.
Isn't the government supposed to put the interests of the people whom it serves over those of foreign-owned businesses?
[*]Equatorial Guinea has some of the highest quality crude oil in the world, yet sells it off to petrol companies more cheaply than the lowest quality oil found elsewhere. The revenue earned is sent illico presto to Riggs Bank in DC, meanwhile the govt. there spends less than 1% of said revenue on healthcare for its citizens.
What is the benefit in that for the people of Equatorial Guinea?
[*]Daily, weapons-laden planes arrive in the Dem. Rep. of Congo and leave just as laden with minerals and other raw materials used to elaborate common goods for Western consumption, i.e. cell phones and other electronics.
How is this helping the Congolese people and their country to develop?
[*]Just about every black-run country is buckling under with high crime rates and/or civil war.
So wah mek we a kill awf wan anaddah?[/list]We know WHAT is happening. So I am wondering WHY countries where blacks are in the majority and are political leaders are underperforming socially and economically.

There are as many forms of government - from dictatorships to democracies - and differences in geopolitical context, ethnic makeup, etc. as there are countries. The only common denominator I can see is the skin color of the majority and the leaders. Help me out with this, people.

I have a little idea and it has something to do with self-hate but I would like to hear your opinions please.


<font color="red">Warning:</font> Contrary to what some may think, black people are not intellectually inferior, lazy, dirty, lacking in morals or any of the other "reasons" that racists give (sometimes on this very board). Any and all remarks to that effect will be duly reported to the administrators as bigoted and racist.

[Archie68]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

We have failed in terms of standards for ourselves and for our leaders.

1. We have no concept of "black people."

2. We have been infected by Western leftism.

3. We are tribal and have no concept of a bigger tribe.

There are many reasons. All of them lead to failure.

Everytime I thing about Africa, I think about my time there. I have no Africa; I have Africas. And there were thousand I did not see in my short time there. The question is painful for me. It reminds me of our failure. That said, that is not how African view it. Their view is far more local.

Our dream of Africa never existed. The only thing Africans have in common is melanin.

The question is unfair and any answer is unfair.

Africa fails because there are thousands of African tribes that have no wider world view beyond a their limited view. Africa is a giant gang war in a ghetto.

Your question fails because Africans do not see, a Africa. They see the tribes they have always faced and competed against.

For Africa to succeed, it requires a geographic vision that has never existed. There are thousands of competing cultures and tribes in Africa. I mean thousands.

Blackstar, the 14 months in Africa left me numb. Sensory overload.

Any African that claims to understand Africans is a liar. There are to many types of African to understand in 10 lifetimes.

Whatever, the answer is, Africans have no AFRICAN intellectual concept and thus they would reject your question.

For me, as an outsider. I have given up on African unity there or elsewhere.

I just want the mass murder and oppression to stop.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Archie, the lack of unity amongst Africans and the diaspora is a given.

It doesn't explain why individual countries from Haiti to Jamaica to Kenya are not living up to their social and economic potential. Wah mek? Jamaica doesn't have to feel any particular unity with Equatorial Guinea for Jamaica to have less crime and Guineans be more prosperous.

Japan and China don't get along. S. Korea and Japan don't get along. This doesn't hold back the development of those three countries. China is comprised of multiple ethnic groups and religions.

You see what I'm saying?

[Archie68]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

What about the rest? Do we have Standards of leadership?

We do not have a results based leadership. In JA, Manley (Basta and Manleys were close relatives)and Spiaga controlled politics for over three decades. All borrowed and bankrupt the cuntry. Mikieman and Spiaga enpowered the dons and were stilled loved by the masses. They had young men murdering each other in the streets and we stilled voted for them.

JA's problem, is: we have not established standards for our selves and for those that lead us.

We talk about ourrulers with words such as, I "like" or "believe in" or "charisma."

That is for movie star or those we date.

Our leardership must be viewed as the captain of the ship of state that brings us to a stated goal.

We do not do that.

That is true for us and for other contries. Some can afford that. Jamaica and Africa cannot.

Thus we fail.

[wolmersboy]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

I think your 2nd response has more to do with it than anything else.
That particular political philosophy which (includes victimhood as its central tenet) means that the politicians can get away with anything--it's the colonials/foreign banks/UN/all the white people's fault that everything is screwed up.
When there is no concept of self-determination or self-responsibility there cannot be any progress.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

I think you're on to something there. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

It's amazing to me that our leaders basically sell us up the river. China gets all contracts and says yes if you (the West) transfer your technology to us. We, black people say yes and we will pay you damages if you (the West) don't make as much as you had forecast. Or yes, if you give me a likkle smalls so I can build a big house in foreign and open a bank account in Switzerland.

I still think there is an element of self-hate among ourselves where we don't want to prosper, nor our fellow countrymen, or anyone else with similar backgrounds to our own. It's not like we don't know any better or can't do it. We work harder for the white man's countries than we do for ourselves.

When when we go abroad, we're trade union leaders (Toussaint and NYC transport workers union), scientists (that Malian guy who works for the NASA), statesmen (Colin Powell) etc., etc.

Wah mek we so dyam "stupid"? Why? Why? Why?

[Wahalla]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
Especially compared to (formerly poor) Asian countries like Thailand, India, and China?

[/ QUOTE ]


There was a great quote from a nigerian econmoist. "(independence)............ was never about development" Poltical independence was about securing power and resoucrces... Until that concept is understood, then there can be no discussion....

And there is one African country that it seems may be well run.. Botswana.

[wolmersboy]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Especially compared to (formerly poor) Asian countries like Thailand, India, and China?

[/ QUOTE ]


There was a great quote from a nigerian econmoist. "(independence)............ was never about development" Poltical independence was about securing power and resoucrces... Until that concept is understood, then there can be no discussion....

And there is one African country that it seems may be well run.. Botswana.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that most of the countries in question gained independence not because they wanted to control their own wealth or resources but for other reasons? Like replacing the colonial oppresors with the home-grown variety?

Please expand on your point, Walhalla. I always look forward to your posts. Many try to teach on this board. You are one of the few that get it right. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70409-waytogo.gif[/img]

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

What race controls the economic engine in African led countries,and are they in the majority?
What race controls the economic engine in the asian countries and are the majotity in control?
Politics is not economics and economics is not politics. he who controls th eeconomics controls theh higher order in the country.
shouldn't we be really looking at who is really in control in thses countries,por it is too dangerous to our own economic security to do so?
it is economic aspect of the countries that are failing and the economic engine is not oin the control of blacks in any country.Whether it is lead by Arican politicians who have toi be financed by those who controls the economic engine of the country.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

I don't know Dr D. Foreign interests "owned" Venezuela's oil resources, but now that Chavez is in power nutten nuh go suh again. If I remember correctly the "owners" of the oil did not go quietly - attempted coup financed by the US, anyone?

So how come the president of Equatorial Guinea is selling off the country's oil cheaply and he is stockpiling cash in the US while the Guineans are living in abject poverty? Someone is holding a gun to his head preventing him from doing the right thing for his country? Isn't it the same "owners" who were knocked down a peg or two in Venezuela?

Did Bouygues hold a gun to PJ's head so he would sign that foolish clause in the highway exploitation contract? Don't the J'can people own that road and why didn't the GOJ look out for the people's interests rather than those of a foreign enterprise?

Why don't our leaders do right by us?
Why do we accept it?

[Serenity82]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know Dr D. Foreign interests "owned" Venezuela's oil resources, but now that Chavez is in power nutten nuh go suh again. If I remember correctly the "owners" of the oil did not go quietly - attempted coup financed by the US, anyone?

So how come the president of Equatorial Guinea is selling off the country's oil cheaply and he is stockpiling cash in the US while the Guineans are living in abject poverty? Someone is holding a gun to his head preventing him from doing the right thing for his country? Isn't it the same "owners" who were knocked down a peg or two in Venezuela?

Did Bouygues hold a gun to PJ's head so he would sign that foolish clause in the highway exploitation contract? Don't the J'can people own that road and why didn't the GOJ look out for the people's interests rather than those of a foreign enterprise?

Why don't our leaders do right by us?
Why do we accept it?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good question and quite depressing to think about.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

I don't know Dr D. Foreign interests "owned" Venezuela's oil resources, but now that Chavez is in power nutten nuh go suh again. If I remember correctly the "owners" of the oil did not go quietly - attempted coup financed by the US, anyone?

Dudd: If you just look beyond the effects you will see the undrelying similarities in all the countries that the ecinomy is controlled by other than the majority race.

So how come the president of Equatorial Guinea is selling off the country's oil cheaply and he is stockpiling cash in the US while the Guineans are living in abject poverty? Someone is holding a gun to his head preventing him from doing the right thing for his country? Isn't it the same "owners" who were knocked down a peg or two in Venezuela?
Yes they hold guns not a gun to the leader's head,in the form of the threat of being overthrown, after being fasly accused,if he does not go along with their robbing the country. ofcourse they will replace him with their cultivated puppet so that they can carry on the robbery of the people of the country.

Did Bouygues hold a gun to PJ's head so he would sign that foolish clause in the highway exploitation contract? Don't the J'can people own that road and why didn't the GOJ look out for the people's interests rather than those of a foreign enterprise?
No Bouygeus did not hold a gun to th ehead of Patterson,that is because holding a gun in international politics is the act of threaten overthrow and replacing th eleader with their selected puppet.
Bouygeus,did not have to do that,because the highway will result in a greater benefit to Jamaicans than the loss the country wil;l experience in the form of tolls.

Why don't our leaders do right by us?
Our leaders don't really have to because even our educated is not even aware of what is best,and who is acting in their best intest.

Why do we accept it?
We accept this because of our lacking in th eskills required to understand mechanocs of self government.
The tools of understanding self government are applied sociology,applied economics and fondamentals of history.
how many of us even realize that these subjects exists,and what percentage of those who know hare capable in all or any one of thes eskills?
unless one understand the reasul of the act of another towards you,yoy are at risk to welcome that which is a danger to yoy.
I am sorry that this is the over whelming case with people of african decent.
They think that the have wisdome,but they are simply educated by others to be tools of others.

the majority never question even the most obvious conflicts in thier education,because those that they idolize (because they are trained to) say it is so.
just look at the way we uase the news about africa.
although some knows that there is an agreement between all th edeveloped countries to keep Africa incapable of defending it's good,by fortering wars and blame them for it in the media,we still accept it hook line and sinker,without question.
Hey I would understand if the majority does,but the educated should be at least use their knowledge of the underlying policy of those who supply the arms,and realize that illiterate and aermed people are mustly dangerous to all within their range of influence.
tghen if the policy makers use threat and coercion to put leaders in power. they are the ones who are ultimately in power.
Any way I know that my views are usually seen as 'deep' or 'far out',but they are based on my use of that which the majority of theeducated blCKS DO NOT USE.

Did I hear dogmatic?
dogma is usually ascribed to that which is beyond the level of analysis of the observer.
I don't like dogma either.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know Dr D. Foreign interests "owned" Venezuela's oil resources, but now that Chavez is in power nutten nuh go suh again. If I remember correctly the "owners" of the oil did not go quietly - attempted coup financed by the US, anyone?

Dudd: If you just look beyond the effects you will see the undrelying similarities in all the countries that the ecinomy is controlled by other than the majority race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, Chavez buck up on bigger people than himself and (seems to have) won, at least so far. Bolivians demanded that their gas reserves be returned to them and Evo Morales has heard them. If they can do it so can our leaders, especially now that the two main troublemakers are stuck to the tar baby that is Iraq and are otherwise occupied.

[ QUOTE ]
We accept this because of our lacking in th eskills required to understand mechanocs of self government.
The tools of understanding self government are applied sociology,applied economics and fondamentals of history.
how many of us even realize that these subjects exists,and what percentage of those who know hare capable in all or any one of thes eskills?
unless one understand the reasul of the act of another towards you,yoy are at risk to welcome that which is a danger to yoy.
I am sorry that this is the over whelming case with people of african decent.
They think that the have wisdome,but they are simply educated by others to be tools of others.

the majority never question even the most obvious conflicts in thier education,because those that they idolize (because they are trained to) say it is so.
just look at the way we uase the news about africa.
although some knows that there is an agreement between all th edeveloped countries to keep Africa incapable of defending it's good,by fortering wars and blame them for it in the media,we still accept it hook line and sinker,without question.
Hey I would understand if the majority does,but the educated should be at least use their knowledge of the underlying policy of those who supply the arms,and realize that illiterate and aermed people are mustly dangerous to all within their range of influence.
tghen if the policy makers use threat and coercion to put leaders in power. they are the ones who are ultimately in power.
Any way I know that my views are usually seen as 'deep' or 'far out',but they are based on my use of that which the majority of theeducated blCKS DO NOT USE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that the majority of Venezuelans and Bolivians are better educated than the majority of Jamaicans?

Chinese and Vietnamese faced many of the same challenges and injustices that we have - except slavery and for a much shorter period - and now they are respected as intelligent and hard working. Knowledgeable Americans are even afraid because most of the US debt is held by China. Not one of our countries is anywhere near to beginning to command any level of respect on the international scene like Singapore, India, Venezuela, Thailand, Indonesia.

Nigeria should be the African Brazil. Why isn't it? Rampant racism has not held back Brazil's development, so can ethnic rivalries be cited as Nigeria's undoing?

The one point that I do see is the arming of factions with nations. Wherever that takes place - from Asia to Africa to S. America - there is underdevelopment.

I'm not having a go at anyone but remain unconvinced by the explanations put forward so far. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]