Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blackpassenger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dude, youre asking a question which would require more than this thread to respond to properly. 'afristocracies' around the world, jamaica included, are pretty much doomed. there are more cultural aspects which are conducive to collective failure than to collective success. as a jamaican living in japan (well, im now in the us from 4 months ago for graduate school) since 2001, I can assure you that jamaica could never be a japan. we simply do not have a history and culture that would allow us to do what japan did. bloody hell, look at singapore, who utilized the development process that jamaica, yes jamaica, our jamaica developed over 40 years ago. look at singapore compared to jamaica. the afristocracy is hopeless. for one, there simply is not the leadership or the incentive to lead effectively. you should read a book called culture matters, highly recommended </div></div> Singapore is a bubble (Paper)economy (just like the US economy. Their economy is standing on th elegs of underpais minorities,underpaid workers, and over extended credits. It Bermuda, Cayman ,Isle of man, and even much of Barbados, and Bhamas, is paper economy.
The US crash will soon reverbrate through them and you will see the result in a few months.

[Archie68]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Archie68</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">As for the cultural comments; I accept that to a point. Momentum can shift. unlikely, but it can happen. We can hope. </span></div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Archie &amp; blackpassenger</span>, I like to face reality, so set me straight on this one: is &quot;culture&quot; code for race or color? </div></div>

Load mi gad, wha mek yu hav fe se dat???? You have exposed an issue facts cannot explain.

No and yes star, culture and race are the same and not the same.

The English and Irish are the same genetically (proven) and cultural enemies. That is bigotry. There are so many examples, I think you get that aspect.

Yet, in the cultural aspect, there is pigment as well. Pigment, culture and physical features dictate race and your place in the world.

Accept it is irrational.I accept my blackness because all blacks accept me. In the rest of the world, i and you will be called something else.

Do you what to understand this irrational concept? Study Brazil and its concept of race.

[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Same exploitation of resources in Surinam with no benefit to the people.

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[Blackstar*]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Bumping for mountaingal.

[bee_bop]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">The history of western Europe differs greatly from that of the rest of the world. The Roman empire, and its disciplined organizational characteristics, forms the foundation for most western European cultures. Rome differed from most of its conquered territories by this discipline, and as time went on, including the <span style="font-style: italic">dark ages</span> and <span style="font-style: italic">renaissance</span>, this organization was adopted to become characteristic of Europe.

Of course countries as Japan had their own disciplined culture, and even the Zulu Empire embodied some of this disciplined organization. Unfortunately for the Zulus, they were unique among a lot of African Kingdoms.

Westernized, European countries, did a lot to weaken the foundations of modern Africa, such as: the fall of the late President Patrice Lumumba of the former Zaire; the struggle by Angolans to prevent destruction by civil war, and external aggression; the struggle by South African blacks to achieve leadership status; Nigeria's internal struggles to cope with military governments; Zimbabwe's internal civil war during the administration of Ian Smith, then the problems under Mugabe's administration. The list is long, and involves a lot more detail, too much for a mere Message Board.

Personally, I believe that as the non-Roman European cultures took time to adapt to the structured, and disciplined, organization of Rome, so will the black-led countries take time to re-develop a new culture that enhances leadership, with the abilities to manage modern development. Ultimately, if the world doesn't come to a sudden end in a <span style="font-style: italic">nuclear armageddeon</span>, black leaders will learn the hard lessons from their experiences with western Europe, and adapt to this new reality.</span></span>

[Wahalla]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Rome did a great PR job.... The celts had more sophiusticates societies.. tjye had less centralisation and more humanity... Rome was an aboration....

[Amberal37]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

An interesting topic, and since it's been revived from the graveyard, I will offer my opinions - although honestly I think it would take a thesis (in the form of a book) to put all the issues at play...

...
3. Colonialism played a huge impact in the underdevelopment of most black countries.

Unlike India and other non-black countries, blacks were not allowed to be educated under colonial [tyranny] rule.

Those that were allowed to be educated, were the ones that were seen to &quot;look&quot; more European (whether straighter noses (Hutu/Tutsi in Rwanda/Uganda), lighter skins (Caribbean), or straighter hair (north/east Africa)).

These were also more likely to then be put in managerial and administrative positions in the colonies, and later were made to own the bulk of land and property during the transition from colonialism to independence. Sources to check out for verification are sourced from &quot;idi Amin kicked the Indians out of Uganda&quot; also see who still owns the majority of agricultural land in South Africa, and many southern African Countries.

These people that were given education were not necessarily smarter, but being offered the competitive advantages of education (and the lions share of land and property ownership) during, then after colonialism, served later to make them think themselves smarter, and went on to create the later neo-colonial &quot;ruling class&quot; who now still often represent the government in these countries.

While we all know that that colonialism no longer exists, the &quot;ruling class&quot;, who started off with these competitive advantage of education, perhaps understandably (?), tried to maintain this gap, and continue the system of unequal distribution of wealth by most means, largely corruption.
The less-European looking Blacks in the respective countries, have for the last 50 or so years, being playing catch-up with the opportunity to gain education, and using that as a means to lift themselves out of oppression. But most often mistake the methods of the ruling class as &quot;cleverness&quot; - as opposed to greed or competitive advantage.

So by not seeing the motivations behind the actions, many start to mimic the actions.

So we see that much of the education and improvement is at the mercy of the &quot;ruling class&quot; – many who do not have the will or desire to give up their positions, and who are normally the ones in power.

Unless this previously educated classes, is fair-minded, and they enact systems that serve to uplift ALL of the peoples in that country then that country will not progress.

In short - we are still going through a regressive period, one of post and neo-colonialism.

I would say that considering the periods of negative impact (slavery/colonialism), we are still in the early stages of recovery, but that does not mean that we should not be impatient for this recovery to speed up.

We need to have debates like this all the time - especially with those in power.

<span style="font-weight: bold">What will help us</span>
Internal and external lobbying. The people living under these systems may be subdued by minor awards, or may be kept too poor to even bother with the idea of “politics”.

Information - the more we know, the more we can hold our leaders accountable, not just the leaders of the countries we are from.

Write to those leaders and tell them what you do know.

Post information on the WWW on how you want things to improve, or

Proceed to try to become part of the ruling class with a view to changing the status quo, or

Sponsor a candidate with the right credentials to do so...

Individual economic growth (be careful this is not false growth) - this helps to build confidence in other blacks around us, and will hopefully plant a seed.

Use voluntary time, or setup up businesses that would enable blacks in otherwise inaccessible areas, to gain access to education, or means of exploiting their resources so they become self-sufficient. (could be basic skills like teaching carpentry, or drainage, or uses of other raw materials that most blacks have access to).

Individually not falling prey to corrupt practices - Most people have short term history span, and will not know or may not care that blacks once had a civilisation, each black person in a position of power needs to remember that they are a representative of another black person...

[Marielle]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: amberal37</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unlike India and other non-black countries, blacks were not allowed to be educated under colonial [tyranny] rule.</div></div>

Not strictly true. France had the stance that if you took the French &quot;values&quot; on board you could become &quot;French&quot;.....

In Gambia I met a Senegalese man in the Roots village of Juffure, where he had a music and dance school who told me his dad
was the first black lawyer in France in the late 50's/early 60's (can't remember which, presumably 60's).....

[Marielle]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Contrary to what some may think, black people are not intellectually inferior, lazy, dirty, lacking in morals or any of the other &quot;reasons&quot; that racists give </div></div>

[Marielle]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

The Dogon are famous for their astronomical knowledge taught through oral tradition, dating back thousands of years, referencing the star system, Sirius. Sirius is the dog star. It is linked with the Egyptian goddess Isis. The astronomical information known by the Dogon since that time, was not discovered and verified until the 19th and 20th centuries, making one wonder how the Dogon came by this knowledge. Their oral traditions say it was given to them by the Nommo. The source of their information may date back to the time of the ancient Egyptian priests.

http://www.crystalinks.com/dogon.html

[Amberal37]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marielle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: amberal37</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unlike India and other non-black countries, blacks were not allowed to be educated under colonial [tyranny] rule.</div></div>

Not strictly true. France had the stance that if you took the French &quot;values&quot; on board you could become &quot;French&quot;.....

In Gambia I met a Senegalese man in the Roots village of Juffure, where he had a music and dance school who told me his dad
was the first black lawyer in France in the late 50's/early 60's (can't remember which, presumably 60's)..... </div></div>

I would like a further debate on this further, but so far I am not sure I am not
sure how your statement on adopting French values to be 'French' negates what I have written.


The fact is that many black states are still recovering from the pillaging carried out during
colonialism. Although changing, the elite &quot;buorgoisie&quot; classes that were created during that era largely still
hold the power and engage in many non-progressive practices in order to hold onto this. So wealth
is maintained in the power of a small minority to the detriment of the majority.


Following colonialisation - which was a race to control the huge resources that exist in Africa
(hereby totally disagreeing with a couple of posters who mentioned a lack of resources), we are
still getting through a period of neo-coloniasation, whereby the resources are still controlled
not by governments, but by companies (check the diamond mines, agricultural land farming, gold
mines and others). There are some countries that are &quot;wisening up&quot; to a lot of these factors - such
as Tanzania, Ghana, Uganda, Nigeria, and possibly Zimbabwe (it's a wait and see, as honestly do not
know what the guy here is under). I wouldn't necessarily count Botswana as one of those, because
although it has one of the highest GDP in Africa, 30% of it's population live below poverty live,
7% population is former colonialists, you can do the maths on the distribution of wealth.

Also, while I appreciate your point regarding the Dogons of Mali (being a form of educated?) (I in fact
read about them some time back in the late 80s/90 s, and it might well have been an Ivan Van Sertima book too!)
these knowledge sources do need to be restored and maintained, but I didn't get that is what
the poster was asking.
Indeed, are we even in a position to say that we are able to preserve the knowledge that the Dogons hold?

At this point in time how can that knowledge alone protect them (the dogons), or any other black nation from
being subjected to mass disease experimentation again? from building defences against widescale famine and
drought, or atleast reserves to deal with these. I think that individual black countries were being judge
based on things like their ability to protect the young and old from crises, to feed their nation's population
without relying on outside handouts (aid) to do so, ability to have political systems that makes the masses
feel safe and protected by their government, ability to take on but to substain education where each
individual feel that they can contribute or have a place in that society, ability to provide hygienic and
safe dwellings for it's population, or a system where that population can gain access to such.
While no nation meets these 100%, the consensus is that black countries are least likely to meet these at an
acceptable level (e.g. 80% or more)

[Marielle]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

So many things to comment on in your post

I am not saying that it was &quot;good&quot; to adopt French values,
(don't go to Paris or France and expect them to speak English!! )
just that that they at least gave you the chance to get an education (in reply that &quot;no blacks were allowed to be educated&quot.... I guess their take was a French Revolution thing - Equality, Fratenity, Brotherhood etc.....
(how about Sisterhood, eh??!! ) i.e. &quot;PEOPLEhood!)

As for the Dogon (not DogonS), I am only trying to show they had knowledge of stuff that the &quot;West&quot; didn't even know about till their telescopes found it out....
thereby negating the fact that &quot;Africans don't know ****).

(I happen to know about the Dogon because my ex-husband was from that tribe, altho his mum was Songhai...).

My parents went through WWII and showed me by their attitude
(my dad was in the Resistance after being taken out of university for refusing to sign to get rid of the jewish professors and made to work in German weapons factory, only know that the Germans took over my mum's house, they won't even talk about it....) that it doesn't help to stay stuck in the past, whatever happened, you have to move on....

[Amberal37]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

I totally agree about moving on, it is essential that black/Africans do move on speedily too from this scar in history. To enable this to happen one needs to be aware of the factors that created the crises, combatting them, and building safeguards against them - otherwise if we escape this era with no lessons learnt, we WILL be one set of untelligent beings.

Despite Germany being such a turnaround, the last two major wars are revisited time and time again in the history classes.
History might be painful for some, but it is not a dirty word.

But I really hear what you are saying about the Dogon<span style="text-decoration: line-through">s</span> It is all the more reason why &quot;normality&quot; needs to be restored, so we know the real knowledge that is out there, not propaganda.

[bee_bop]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelli0n</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look on Haiti. They have been &quot;free&quot; since Toussaint days and they are one of the most politically tumultuous countries in the world. </div></div>
Since I realize that you are ignorant of the truth about Haitian freedom. Let me inform you that Haiti was invaded and occupied twice by the USA. During those periods, The Us military deposed the nationalist governments,disposess black citizens of their properties and imposed light skinned rule. They destroyed the forests,and planted sisal from which they had US comopanies manufacturing baseballs. They forced Haiti to pay France millions to get back so-called freedoms,of which Haiti has not yet attained. So which with all tha which is onlythe tip of the iceburg,how in heavens name was haiti suppose to achieve any economic prosperity?
hAhh boy,talk about giving people basket to carry water,and then blame fthem for the lack of it.
Do some research of Us invasion of haiti,and while you are at it,do the invasion of CUba,Dominican republic,the partitioning of columbia. The claiming of Jamiaican islands (Morant Cays).
Congress actually pass laws authorizing the US navy to do all these in the name of democracy. So tell me again about haitian freedoms. </div></div>

<span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-weight: bold">The matter of Sisal being planted in Haiti, and the destruction of Haitian forests, was related to me by my mother (not Haitian) who remembers it from the period it occured in.

Looking through Google Earth at South-eastern Haiti, near the DR border, there is utter ecological ruin, instead of riverine flows one sees mud flows. There is no grass whatsoever, in some areas, which is not natural as if some one poisoned the soil.

My heart goes out to Haitians, and their experience of destruction, destabilization, subversion, coups, and counter-coups, international invasions, corrupt governments, etc. The saddest part is that Jamaica seems to be slowly sliding down the same path...to be truthful, this frightens the <span style="font-style: italic">beejeebers</span> out of me...ahh life!!!</span></span>

[Archie68]

Re: Why Are Black-Led Countries Doing So Badly?

Littleman, you thesis has been explored relentlessly by many smart people. They agree to a point; not <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">discipline</div></div>. Common system, legal code, language, and trade.

However, your attempt at a point reveals a deeper point. It is: Africa has never had a unifing civilization. Cultural, bantu is dominant. However, there was never a common series of soldiers, laws, language, etc. that imposed some sort of commonality.

My African history professor claimed it is impossible due to Africa's geography. His point was: you cannot have a unified concept if geography does not let you reach the place.

Africa geography fragments people.

That is the past. The issue remains. Will black people keep on going on.

Or can we, create a common vision? If not, the present and future will look like the past. That simple.