"...now have to be sacrficed..."

[Yuriatin]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Indeed Johnny - this is the quandry crossing my brain more often than not - what can we do?

I wonder if there's nothing we in the diaspora CAN do ... perhaps nothing will change until the people themselves recognize they're being trampled on and act, in some way ...

(dont we already have a third party)

[RichD]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

only about half the ppl feel trampled on at any one time

[Sinco01]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

but he is gonna install his own "assistants"

and usually those assts have their own vision and "play calling" for the game ..

might not be a drastic change, but subtle enough to be noticed or felt in some areas ..

what kind of reaction ..

we will wait and see if the "change" happens

[Sinco01]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">only about half the ppl feel trampled on at any one time </div></div>

ain't dat de truth ... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes Tuff Gong,
De cow dem coulda run tings betta than the twin parties.
PNP, JLP all the same.
Vote one in and the other out, back and forth and nothing changes.

No chance for a viable third party, you think?

What are the options then?
Is it hopeless?

Bring an honest person into either party and they're soon as corrupt as any of them, no?

What to do? </div></div>

There are two viable Political Parties in Jamaica. There are others, they are not options.

Elections are this year, certainly no later than early the next year.

The choice is between the incumbent PNP and the Opposition JLP. There are no other choices.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #333333">TG, u know that there is talk that the US is definitely looking at a recession...the sneeze yessiday pon di Stock Market is just a forerunner as to wat is coming, given the recent movements by China....whe u tink bout dat expectation an how it gwine to affek yaad</span> </div></div>

In the 8 years (1993-2001) The Forty-Second President of the USA, William J (Bill) Clinton, was running things the USA's Economy grew the fastest and achieved one of the highest growth rate in its history.
A PNP Government had by then almost competed it first full term in office, with plenty of goodwill to spare.

In the 18 years that the said PNP party had been in Government the USA had very good, if not exceptional growth rates.
The USA had and still has the highest per capita consumption in the world. It consumes an unreal 2/3 of the total output in the world.

Last year Americans in the USA, spent most of their savings on consumer goods and services, when it was all gone they borrowed to spend.
The USA is c180 miles as the crow files from Jamaica's shore.

What happened to the markets yesterday was a correction, because there are fears the Chinese Economy might over heat thereby forcing the Government of China to take steps halt the runaway growth, which have a negative effect on the market in the short and medium term. The USA market as you referred to, also has its challenges.

With all that said, Americans in the USA are not going to stop spending. The Chinese is not going to tinker with their economy in such a fashion as to bring down the house on all of our heads.

<u>The question then</u>.

<span style="color: #CC0000">A.</span> why can't Jamaica sell to the world's biggest consumer market?
<span style="color: #000099">B.</span> why worry now, when we could not sell to the world's fastest growing and largest market in the Bill Clinton years?

My conclusion is that the ones who got us in the mess cannot take us out of it. They have had their chances and they blew them all.

[evanovitch]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #333333">TG, u know that there is talk that the US is definitely looking at a recession...the sneeze yessiday pon di Stock Market is just a forerunner as to wat is coming, given the recent movements by China....whe u tink bout dat expectation an how it gwine to affek yaad</span> </div></div>

In the 8 years (1993-2001) The Forty-Second President of the USA, William J (Bill) Clinton, was running things the USA's Economy grew the fastest and achieved one of the highest growth rate in its history.
A PNP Government had by then almost competed it first full term in office, with plenty of goodwill to spare.

In the 18 years that the said PNP party had been in Government the USA had very good, if not exceptional growth rates.
The USA had and still has the highest per capita consumption in the world. It consumes an unreal 2/3 of the total output in the world.

Last year Americans in the USA, spent most of their savings on consumer goods and services, when it was all gone they borrowed to spend.
The USA is c180 miles as the crow files from Jamaica's shore.

What happened to the markets yesterday was a correction, because there are fears the Chinese Economy might over heat thereby forcing the Government of China to take steps halt the runaway growth, which have a negative effect on the market in the short and medium term. The USA market as you referred to, also has its challenges.

With all that said, Americans in the USA are not going to stop spending. The Chinese is not going to tinker with their economy in such a fashion as to bring down the house on all of our heads.

<u>The question then</u>.

<span style="color: #CC0000">A.</span> why can't Jamaica sell to the world's biggest consumer market?
<span style="color: #000099">B.</span> why worry now, when we could not sell to the world's fastest growing and largest market in the Bill Clinton years?

My conclusion is that the ones who got us in the mess cannot take us out of it. They have had their chances and they blew them all.

</div></div>

u know TG...wen u ansa widdout fighting, u mek sense u know [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70459-hugs.gif[/img]

but can the Chinese be trusted....to hear my guys on Coast to Coast, dem, di Chinese,shedding di US dollar fi gold....pushing gold wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy up untillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllll

[Dyoll_73]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

The PNP should go. Too much arrogance, PR, ineptitude and corruption. A change may be good. The JLP can't do any worse, except I heard Derick Smith, the JLP shadow minister for national security, calling the PNP "coward" for not re-instituting hanging. Mr Smith may have forgotten that it was the JLP that, in effect, placed a moratorium on the dealth penalty about twenty years ago. As the years went by, and while the JLP became the opposition, it seemed as if the JLP had taken an anti-capital punishment position, certainly from statements made by Oswald Harding. As an opponent of capital punishment, myself, I was pleased with that position, and thought that the uncivilized, anti-intellectual vagabonds in the JLP had gotten it right. By contrast, the 'enlightened' PNP was clamoring for a return to hanging, and if you all recall, was trying all means to restrict the number of appeals of those convicted. A.J. "gimme a drink" Nicholson, the Attorney General, was blaming the Privy Council for the high rate of murder in Jamaica and not his government's failure to deal with crime, caused in large measure by injustice and social inequity. By calling for hanging, the PNP hoped to appear tough and doing something about crime. Re-instituting the death penalty would not make a serious dent in crime, and they knew it.

Now the JLP is doing the same politicking. I guess they see it as part of a winning strategy.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">u know TG...wen u ansa widdout fighting, u mek sense u know [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70459-hugs.gif[/img]

but can the Chinese be trusted....to hear my guys on Coast to Coast, dem, di Chinese,shedding di US dollar fi gold....pushing gold wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy up untillllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllll </div></div>

DWL.... Mi stop fight...although mi wasn't all this time just pretending!

Can you trust the Chinese?
Well even though the Chinese economy has been growing at a very rapid pace, there are millions of Chinese unfed or near staving.
Hence the reason why it would be in their interests to:

<span style="color: #FF0000">A.</span> slow the rate of growth in the economy while expanding it.
<span style="color: #6600CC">B.</span> help to protect the USA Economy from great shocks
<span style="color: #003300">C. </span>don't go off on any stupid Bush-like adventures.
<span style="color: #FF0000">D.</span> saber rattle a little bit, knowing full well that the Democratic Majority in 07 and maybe a Democratic victory in 08 might, push for real sanctions against China, which will drive the cost of Chinese production upwards.

I did not know gold was up so high till about Friday when someone asked why was oil going higher and why was gold up to 800.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The PNP should go. Too much arrogance, PR, ineptitude and corruption. A change may be good. The JLP can't do any worse, except I heard Derick Smith, the JLP shadow minister for national security, calling the PNP "coward" for not re-instituting hanging. Mr Smith may have forgotten that it was the JLP that, in effect, placed a moratorium on the dealth penalty about twenty years ago. As the years went by, and while the JLP became the opposition, it seemed as if the JLP had taken an anti-capital punishment position, certainly from statements made by Oswald Harding. As an opponent of capital punishment, myself, I was pleased with that position, and thought that the uncivilized, anti-intellectual vagabonds in the JLP had gotten it right. By contrast, the 'enlightened' PNP was clamoring for a return to hanging, and if you all recall, was trying all means to restrict the number of appeals of those convicted. A.J. "gimme a drink" Nicholson, the Attorney General, was blaming the Privy Council for the high rate of murder in Jamaica and not his government's failure to deal with crime, caused in large measure by injustice and social inequity. By calling for hanging, the PNP hoped to appear tough and doing something about crime. Re-instituting the death penalty would not make a serious dent in crime, and they knew it.

Now the JLP is doing the same politicking. I guess they see it as part of a winning strategy. </div></div>

You have hit upon the same question/concerns I have.

Mr. Smith is one of my least favourite JLP politicians. We have to remember that a Political Party represents a hopefully a consensus between individuals, attenuated by the wishes of its members.

So it is true that in both parties there is a strong anti-death penalty caucus, which includes Delroy Chuck, A.J. Nicholson, P.Joke and Bruce Golding(?).
There are some others who are strong death penalty advocates.

With Mr. Smith's pronouncement I don't know if it is electioneering or the consensus of the Party speaking.
Never-the-less the death penalty is still on the books and if there one single thing you can point to that has halted the hangings, it is the manner in which the PNP Government has toyed with the laws of Jamaica, especially the distinction between capital and non-capital murder.

There is also the problem with catching and convicting the murders. According to the police the so-called cleared up rate is way under 50%. Then cleared up don't mean they have some in custody, it generally means the police killed someone yesterday and put half and dozen bodies on the dead man.
The men one death row are not doing any more killing, unless they getting out @ night.

Rest assured I think Mr. Smith will be not be the Minister, it will be Mr. McMallian. I think Mr. Smith will become Ambassador to China after the JLP first term.
He has been good party person but some of the things in his head is just too far back in the 60-70s-80s..

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes Tuff Gong,
De cow dem coulda run tings betta than the twin parties.
PNP, JLP all the same.
Vote one in and the other out, back and forth and nothing changes.

No chance for a viable third party, you think?

What are the options then?
Is it hopeless?

Bring an honest person into either party and they're soon as corrupt as any of them, no?

What to do? </div></div>

There are two viable Political Parties in Jamaica. There are others, they are not options.

Elections are this year, certainly no later than early the next year.

The choice is between the incumbent PNP and the Opposition JLP. There are no other choices.
</div></div>

So Tuff Gong,

In reality the Jamaican electorate like the U.S electorate has only the choice of voting for twin parties of the status quo.

That in essence means no chance for change.

What are the chances of a Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales etc type winning ?
Are there any of these in Jamaica or has no one any hope or serious though of
change? Has the Manley experience so poisoned the thought of change that Jamaica can only change the leader of the status quo from time to time without hope for bettering the country?

That's a sad thought.

[Yuriatin]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Alright then - oonu see why mi heart heavy ... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70374-lipsrsealed.gif[/img]

Lately, mia really, really wonda if any hope deh fi JA.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So Tuff Gong,

In reality the Jamaican electorate like the U.S electorate has only the choice of voting for twin parties</div></div>

I am talking about Jamaica. There are many other countires where the choice between two parties.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In reality the Jamaican electorate like the U.S electorate has only the choice of voting for twin parties.

That in essence means no chance for change.</div></div>

Who said the JLP or the PNP should necessarily represent the Status Quo?

From either of the two parties a government may be formed.
The PNP formed the government for 17 years straight. Last year a new Prime Minister assumed power, this represented a new Government. The PNP then had the chance to go in a new direction.

There is going to be an election soon, any one of the two parties that wins, has the opportunity to change the status quo. There is no need to follow any previous line.

Even more important than anything I have said so far is the fact that the Jamaican Constitution does not recognize any Political Party.
Anyone can form a party and there have been and still are a number of minor parties, they are just not viable.

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In reality the Jamaican electorate like the U.S electorate has only the choice of voting for twin parties.

That in essence means no chance for change.</div></div>

TF- Who said the JLP or the PNP should necessarily represent the Status Quo?


There is going to be an election soon, any one of the two parties that wins, has the opportunity to change the status quo. There is no need to follow any previous line.

Even more important than anything I have said so far is the fact that the Jamaican Constitution does not recognize any Political Party.
Anyone can form a party and there have been and still are a number of minor parties, they are just not viable.(quote)"



Just my point TG,

In reality and not in some pie-in-the-sky theory of possibility, the Jamaican electorate has a choice of either the JLP or the PNP, neither of which shows or has ever shown (forgetting Manley) any sign of a change in the way things are done.

As the saying goes:
In a political and, more to the point, in a social situation wherein Peter is robbed to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul.

Those at the top of the heap would be fools to make any changes wherein they would suffer a loss of power and/or wealth and/or privilege.

Is it POSSIBLe that change will come from within either the JLP or PNP. Yes
Is it at all PROBABLE? No.

Dyoll up above a bit clearly demonstrates the problem; He says it might be a ggod idea to put the JLP back in power. Why? Not because they have any better plan but because things have not improved (or worsened) under the PNP.
That is not the route to change. That is asking for more of the same.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In reality the Jamaican electorate like the U.S electorate has only the choice of voting for twin parties.

That in essence means no chance for change.</div></div>

TF- Who said the JLP or the PNP should necessarily represent the Status Quo?


There is going to be an election soon, any one of the two parties that wins, has the opportunity to change the status quo. There is no need to follow any previous line.

Even more important than anything I have said so far is the fact that the Jamaican Constitution does not recognize any Political Party.
Anyone can form a party and there have been and still are a number of minor parties, they are just not viable.(quote)"

Just my point TG,</div></div>

What point is that?

Are you agreeing with me that there are other choices, as there are other parties?