"...now have to be sacrficed..."

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In reality and not in some pie-in-the-sky theory of possibility, the Jamaican electorate has a choice of either the JLP or the PNP, neither of which shows or has ever shown (forgetting Manley) any sign of a change in the way things are done.</div></div>

What change are you talking about? The PNP has 18 unbroken years of leadership in Jamaica, twenty six/seven counting the Menlie years of the 70s.

In the Menlie first term the economy (that was one of the fastest growing in the hemisphere) shrank 25%. In the 80s a JLP Government came to power the economy recovered and grew.

In the last eighteen years the economy has again shrunk by another 25%, all or most of the factories shuttered. Garbage strewn all over the streets of every town. Human Rights abuse left and right.
Crime on the increase and corruption at its highest level.
In fact deja vu, it is the 70s all over again.
Coincidently a PNP Government has overseen all this destruction.

So what reality are you talking about?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the saying goes:
In a political and, more to the point, in a social situation wherein Peter is robbed to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul.

Those at the top of the heap would be fools to make any changes wherein they would suffer a loss of power and/or wealth and/or privilege.</div></div>

I thought you were talking about reality?
Are you saying the PNP has robbed who to pay the JLP?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Is it POSSIBLe that change will come from within either the JLP or PNP. Yes
Is it at all PROBABLE? No.</div></div>

Again you have claimed that your opinions are routed in reality, yet you continue to make statements with scant regards for the history of Governance in Jamaica. It is both possible and probable that any one of the two viable parties in Jamaica can renew itself. Just do a search and compare the numbers.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Dyoll up above a bit clearly demonstrates the problem; He says it might be a ggod idea to put the JLP back in power. Why? Not because they have any better plan but because things have not improved (or worsened) under the PNP.
That is not the route to change. That is asking for more of the same. </div></div>

There are numerous examples in the world of politics, where the incumbent is so bad, that it leaves the Opposition no choice but to stand back and shout timberrrr!

But here again is a case, where fact is an alien word to you. You do great damage; I think , to your arguments when you base them on fiction rather than fact.

The fact it the JLP has consistently put what it sees are the prescriptions for economic and social welfare, into the public domain.

What more could you ask?

[Yuriatin]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Primary school space needed in St Thomas
published: Saturday | March 3, 2007

Morant Bay, St. Thomas:

There is growing concern within the education circles of St. Thomas with regard to a lack of space for primary schooling.

This week Maxine Henry-Wilson, Minister of Education and Youth, disclosed that the ministry would be providing approximately 16,990 new spaces by year-end at the primary and secondary levels. Not all schools, however, will benefit.

In St. Thomas, where educators state that space is sorely needed, principal of Lyssons Primary, Ena Barclay, is hoping that her school will at least receive the additional classrooms promised as she said the institution is "bursting at the seams".

Classroom to student ratio

The current classroom to student ratio at the school varies with some classrooms experiencing a one to 43 and one to 44 ratio at grades six and three, and grades two and five respectively.

Mrs. Barclay noted that the school's parent teacher association saw the need for space and started construction of a building, which was intended to contain a computer room and staff rooms, at the institution.

"Lyssons right now, at least, needs an additional three classrooms. But, if we get this building, which the Government has promised to finish, we would be grateful, as it will be used as classrooms for the new school term in September," she said.

Mrs. Barclay said that, due to the lack of primary school space in the parish, several private early childhood institutions have sprung up in Morant Bay, the parish capital, and surrounding communities in the eastern side of St. Thomas.

"If the public education could afford it (the needed school space) there wouldn't have been so many schools started," she said.

Hopeton Henry, president of the Jamaica Teachers' Association, echoed Mrs. Barclay's sentiments regarding space in St. Thomas and said it was extremely critical at the eastern end of the parish. He said most, if not all, of the primary schools in the eastern end of St. Thomas heading into Portland are overcrowded.

"Another school is needed between Lyssons community and Port Morant as there is a big gap," he said.

Mr. Henry said this great need for space in the parish may be associated with housing developments and population shifts.

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Well Tuff Gong,
After PNP/Manley came JLP/Seaga, then PNP until today and things have not inproved but rather deteriorated and the debt become a huge burden.

Both parties are to blame because both parties have essentially the same policies.

You seem to believe that the problems of Jamaica are political and the social problems of crumbling infrastructure, and violence are problems that stem from a corrupt political system with the PNP bearing the lion's share of the blame having been in power longer.

I believe the problems are poverty based and stem from a vastly unequal distribution of the goods and services which is based on the pay one gets for his/her labor under a totalitarian capitalism . The wealthy own lots of land, have lots of money in the bank and make a lot more pay than do the poor.
Second but perhaps just as important is the debt which eats up 60-70% of the nations income.

Both parties incurred the debt and have no solution to the debt problem. Both parties are strict adherents of a capitalist system that perpetuates economic inequality and the social problems it generates.

You may see some difference in policies between the PNP and JLP but to me it's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic while the ship is heading right for an iceberg.

While I am not quite sure that it is a deliberate plan, divide and conquer does work well in keeping Jamaicans (and U.S citizens) squabbling amongst themselves about the minute actual differences in PNP/JLP policies that have kept Jamaica from achieving better things and from keeping them from looking deeper at the real underlying cause of the problems.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Tuff Gong,
After PNP/Manley came JLP/Seaga, then PNP until today and things have not inproved but rather deteriorated and the debt become a huge burden.</div></div>

The PNP Governments of Menlie twice destroyed the economy.
Every Government that Eddie Seaga has been involved has led to growth and expansion of the economy, fact that are easily verifiable.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both parties are to blame because both parties have essentially the same policies.</div></div>

No! Under the Westminster System the Government of Jamaica is drawn from the party with the majority gained in a General Election.

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Tuff Gong,
After PNP/Manley came JLP/Seaga, then PNP until today and things have not inproved but rather deteriorated and the debt become a huge burden.</div></div>

The PNP Governments of Menlie twice destroyed the economy.
Every Government that Eddie Seaga has been involved has led to growth and expansion of the economy, fact that are easily verifiable.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both parties are to blame because both parties have essentially the same policies.</div></div>

No! Under the Westminster System the Government of Jamaica is drawn from the party with the majority gained in a General Election. </div></div>


Right TG, the government under the JLP made things so much better that the Jamaican electorate chose to not reelect them.
Makes sense to me.

The fact that Jamaica has a Westminster or Parliamentarian form of government whereunder the winning party takes control of policy makes no difference at all if both parties have the same policies, which they do just as the Republican and Democrats in the U.S and the two-party systems in most capitalist countries do.

The policies of the JLP differ in what significant way from the policies of the PNP?

The fortunes of Jamaica and its people have been bettered in what way.
Roads, hospitals, infrastructure, corruption, DEBT How?

If the JLP is so much better, does that mean that the Jamaican electorate is so dumbed-down that it can't see where its best interests lie?

I don't understand your thinking.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Right TG, the government under the JLP made things so much better that the Jamaican electorate chose to not reelect them.
Makes sense to me. </div></div>

Yes!

Whether is makes sense to you or not is neither here nor there.
The fact is after PNP toasted the economy in the 70s. The JLP came to power, with Jamaica facing huge debts and an economy in disarray. The JLP Government of Eddie Seaga succeeded in rebuilding much of the Jamaican economy.

After little over a term and a half the People of Jamaica decided they had enough of the JLP and put the PNP into power, whereupon they have spent the last 18 years doing another number on the economy of Jamaica and the Jamaican people.

Again it would be nice if you at least do a little bit of research. Concentrate less on what you consider my thinking and more on what are the facts of the Jamaican social and political experience are.

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Tuff Gong,

The question remains. Is Jamaica any better off now than it was shortly after iindependence.
Has the standard of living for Jamaican, the infrastructure, the ability to live feeling safe and secure in one's home and neighborhood, the drug problems, schools, hospitals in short the quality of life IMPROVED or has it deteriorated under the combined leadership of the twin parties of capitalism?


And would you please answer the obvious question: If things got decidely better under a JLP/Seaga government where as you said they had the all the power needed under the Westminster system, why oh why would the Jamaican electorate then turn the JLP out in favor of the PNP which had such a bad record?
Mind you, I am not disagreeing with you that the PNP did not perform well but rather if your perception was that Seaga and the JLP turned things around so dramatically, how was it that the preponderance of the electorate didn't see it that way?

BTW I am doing my research. I am asking you for clarification. You have better access to the economic figures than I and you should know the mood of the Jamaican electorate better than I.

You've told me what happened, that the Jamaican electorate turned out the very successful JLP in favor of the woefully inadequate PNP but you did not explain why they would do such an obviously stupid thing.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong,

The question remains. Is Jamaica any better off now than it was shortly after iindependence.</div></div>

No!

That is why we are planning to change the Government.
The current state of the economy cannot be blamed on the JLP. The PNP got us into this mess and it appears they cannot extricate us, hence the new for a new team.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And would you please answer the obvious question: If things got decidely better under a JLP/Seaga government where as you said they had the all the power needed under the Westminster system, why oh why would the Jamaican electorate then turn the JLP out in favor of the PNP which had such a bad record? </div></div>

Prior to all that the Jamaican Electorate ditched was said to be the best Government in Jamaica's history since Independence, the Hugh Shearer JLP Government that was beaten by Menlie in 1972.

So it is not so unusual for Jamaicans to change a successful government.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW I am doing my research.</div></div>

If this is the usual path your research takes no wonder you have been writing the same disturbing nonsense for so many years on this board.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am asking you for clarification. You have better access to the economic figures than I and you should know the mood of the Jamaican electorate better than I.</div></div>

Again poor methodology. Go to STATIN, the IMF, World Bank, CIA World Factbook, both of us will then have similar access to and be armed with empirical data.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've told me what happened, that the Jamaican electorate turned out the very successful JLP in favor of the woefully inadequate PNP but you did not explain why they would do such an obviously stupid thing.</div></div>

See the comments in prior post.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And would you please answer the obvious question: If things got decidely better under a JLP/Seaga government where as you said they had the all the power needed under the Westminster system, why oh why would the Jamaican electorate then turn the JLP out in favor of the PNP which had such a bad record? </div></div>

Prior to all that the Jamaican Electorate ditched was said to be the best Government in Jamaica's history since Independence, the Hugh Shearer JLP Government that was beaten by Menlie in 1972.

So it is not so unusual for Jamaicans to change a successful government.
</div></div>
Success for who though?? Should be the question begging to be asked.
The problem was that during the Shearer/Sangster/Bustamante period of the 60's racism against black Jamaican was so rapmant that Manley won on the basis that he would usher in a social change. th epeople welcomed it,amnd they stuck with him even under the pressure from the private sector/JLP/CIA triumvite. They just failed when th epolice force used their job of transporting the voting ballots put them in a position of kingmaker.
The first opportunity the voters got they did what they wanted to do in the first place.
They voted in the PNP and have been doing so for the longest time. Until the JLP can convince the general population that it is not a tool of the elite,they will have difficulty of winning consecutive terms when they do win.
The people are not that stupid. It is ony that their priority is more skewed to respect than most jurisdiction. They will rather to destroy the economy than to accept blatant racism against them.
The crime we are experiencing is the warning shots that wuill preceed the emminent demand for economic equality in the society..

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Success for who though?? Should be the question begging to be asked. </div></div>

For Jamaicans!

By the time of Hugh Shearer's Government the financial and manufacturing sector was owned and operated mainly by Jamaicans.

Today you look @ the principals behind the financial sector and we need not mention the so-called manufacturing sector, for there is little or nothing going on there.

That is what the Menlie Revolution has brought us. From the day he can to power there was a pogrom against the white Jamaicans, resulting in many fleeing the Island and their home and business squatted in.
It was not like this was happening without his knowledge, because he famously said that the State should seize the commanding heights of the economy and that Jamaica had no place for millionaires, he advised anyone wanting to be such to hop on one of the five flights per day to Miami.

Many did including Black Jamaican Business persons, intellectuals, the intelligentsia and common folks, who knew it was their time next.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Success for who though?? Should be the question begging to be asked. </div></div>

For Jamaicans!

By the time of Hugh Shearer's Government the financial and manufacturing sector was owned and operated mainly by Jamaicans.

Today you look @ the principals behind the financial sector and we need not mention the so-called manufacturing sector, for there is little or nothing going on there.

That is what the Menlie Revolution has brought us. From the day he can to power there was a pogrom against the white Jamaicans, resulting in many fleeing the Island and their home and business squatted in.
It was not like this was happening without his knowledge, because he famously said that the State should seize the commanding heights of the economy and that Jamaica had no place for millionaires, he advised anyone wanting to be such to hop on one of the five flights per day to Miami.

Many did including Black Jamaican Business persons, intellectuals, the intelligentsia and common folks, who knew it was their time next.
</div></div>
Jamaica had no manufacturing sector.
It had an assembly sector in which companies use to import disi assembled units and with screw driver as tools would put them together.
The reason why this worked was because of the high tariff regime on imports.
It was undercut by Carifta,the predecessor of caricom.
under carifta Trinidad and other members got duty free access as members. well trinidad did the same assemply and sourced their products from cheaper markets,while Jamaica was sourcing from US. They went to India and Taiwan. That was the beginning of the end of the assembly being paraded as manufacturing in the country.