"...now have to be sacrficed..."

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

quote By the time of Hugh Shearer's Government the financial and manufacturing sector was owned and operated mainly by Jamaicans.


Name me 2 financial institution that was owned by Jamaicans during the 60's.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica had no manufacturing sector. </div></div>

What a thing!

In order to make your spurious arguments valid, you have single-handed destroyed the entire 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s Jamaican Manufacturing Sector,

Anyway as with all discussion on this board dealing with socio-political and socio-economic matters it is always hijacked by the Ghost of Menlie.
Eventually the subscribers to the cult of personality find a way to inject Menlie and their Spin on events, as the Central, in fact the only theme.

Well my contention is that Menlie is dead and even the most rabid supporter seems to have signed on to the belief that Jamaica has gone belly up.
So kudos to Menlie, PJoke, Sistah P. and their backers they have succeeded in making Jamaica Black, but at a very high price.

Carpe diem!

This is a different dispensation, for if not now then when.
Time Come!

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong,

The question remains. Is Jamaica any better off now than it was shortly after iindependence.</div></div>

No!

That is why we are planning to change the Government.
The current state of the economy cannot be blamed on the JLP. The PNP got us into this mess and it appears they cannot extricate us, hence the new for a new team.
</div></div>

Thank you,

The PNP got Jamaica into "this mess" and did not the JLP double the debt under Seaga?in the 80's?
And what specific changes has the JLP announced that would on any serious way change the situation?

If such plans exist why haven't the Jamaican people called for new elections?

Sorry Tuff Gong, according to you the two parties have the capability, the possibility of making changes in the status quo but if they haven't done so in the 27 years I've been watching Jamaica deteriorate, what makes you or anyone think that they will?

Like someone getting married for the seventh time you appear to be placing hope in front of experience.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The PNP got Jamaica into "this mess" and did not the JLP double the debt under Seaga?in the 80's? </div></div>

No!

Simply because the JLP Government was in a rebuilding mode when they came to power.
The Economy of Jamaica was destroyed by then.
Even the most strident Spin Doctor has never disputed this.

When the PNP took over the in 72 the economy was growing @ 6%. Hugh Shearer was recently held to be the best Prime Minister in Jamaica's history based on the economic numbers.

When Eddie Seaga's JLP Government was voted out, the economy was growing and the debt was nowhere near what it is now.
In fact that was the last time Jamaica had seen a budget surplus.

It was Menlie who started the borrowing train rolling.
It would be nice if you would just get the facts, before committing a bag nonsense to the forum.

[Sinco01]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

It was Menlie who started the borrowing train rolling

and untill now no one is doing anything to improve our energy neeeds and cut oil consumption ...

no push to thoroughly utilize sun, wind and water which we have in abudance ..

as long as we are dependent on someone elses oil this debt will not be under control

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica had no manufacturing sector. </div></div>

What a thing!

In order to make your spurious arguments valid, you have single-handed destroyed the entire 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s Jamaican Manufacturing Sector,

Anyway as with all discussion on this board dealing with socio-political and socio-economic matters it is always hijacked by the Ghost of Menlie.
Eventually the subscribers to the cult of personality find a way to inject Menlie and their Spin on events, as the Central, in fact the only theme.

Well my contention is that Menlie is dead and even the most rabid supporter seems to have signed on to the belief that Jamaica has gone belly up.
So kudos to Menlie, PJoke, Sistah P. and their backers they have succeeded in making Jamaica Black, but at a very high price.

Carpe diem!

This is a different dispensation, for if not now then when.
Time Come!

</div></div>
The only manufacturing sector jamaica had in the 40's and 50's was sugar,and Red Stripe beer.
they are still in operation
Even the bauxite industry which started in the 50's,was not a manufacturing industry,but an exporter of raw bauxite.
Jamaica had none of the assembly type manufacturing sector as such before the 6o's. the manufacturing sector was initiated with the developement of the Industrial estates between Spanist town Rd and marcus garvey drive.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only manufacturing sector jamaica had in the 40's and 50's was sugar,and Red Stripe beer.
they are still in operation
Even the bauxite industry which started in the 50's,was not a manufacturing industry,but an exporter of raw bauxite.
Jamaica had none of the assembly type manufacturing sector as such before the 6o's. the manufacturing sector was initiated with the developement of the Industrial estates between Spanist town Rd and marcus garvey drive. </div></div>

Dr Please!
Don't taak nonsense!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was Menlie who started the borrowing train rolling

and untill now no one is doing anything to improve our energy neeeds and cut oil consumption ...

no push to thoroughly utilize sun, wind and water which we have in abudance ..

as long as we are dependent on someone elses oil this debt will not be under control </div></div>

.... but the debt was or is still not made up merely the cost of our energy needs?
There were plans especially in the 70s to use alternative energy but those plans were shelved in the heady days of PJoke Terms in office and only revived in his last year in power.

So it is not true at all to say no one is talking about alternatives!

In any case China, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland and other manufacturing powerhouses all dependant on other people’s oil.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And what specific changes has the JLP announced that would on any serious way change the situation?

If such plans exist why haven't the Jamaican people called for new elections?</div></div>

Here again your laziness, dishonesty, and just plain illogical positions shine through.

The JLP has put out its manifesto every election year.
In Jamaica the power to call elections reside on with the Prime Minister of Jamaica.
The Governor General call dissolve Parliament is a majority of the ruling party's Ministers goes to the Governor General and say we no longer have confidence in this Prime Minister.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only manufacturing sector jamaica had in the 40's and 50's was sugar,and Red Stripe beer.
they are still in operation
Even the bauxite industry which started in the 50's,was not a manufacturing industry,but an exporter of raw bauxite.
Jamaica had none of the assembly type manufacturing sector as such before the 6o's. the manufacturing sector was initiated with the developement of the Industrial estates between Spanist town Rd and marcus garvey drive. </div></div>

Dr Please!
Don't taak nonsense! </div></div>
Name me 5 factories, that wereinvolved in manufacturing during that period, that is not operating now&gt;
Yes we had PA Benjamin manufacturin,but it stil operate today.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was Menlie who started the borrowing train rolling

and untill now no one is doing anything to improve our energy neeeds and cut oil consumption ...

no push to thoroughly utilize sun, wind and water which we have in abudance ..

as long as we are dependent on someone elses oil this debt will not be under control </div></div>

.... but the debt was or is still not made up merely the cost of our energy needs?
There were plans especially in the 70s to use alternative energy but those plans were shelved in the heady days of PJoke Terms in office and only revived in his last year in power.

So it is not true at all to say no one is talking about alternatives!

In any case China, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland and other manufacturing powerhouses all dependant on other people’s oil.
</div></div>All these countries have an elite that are committed to the developement of the masses of the country. In Jamaica the elite is united by the policy of depriving the majority of economic developement.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Sorry Tuff Gong, according to you the two parties have the capability, the possibility of making changes in the status quo but if they haven't done so in the 27 years I've been watching Jamaica deteriorate, what makes you or anyone think that they will?</div></div>

Again you are putting words in my mouth and answering them to your satisfation.
The PNP are the ones who have had the twenty seven years of destroying Jamaica.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like someone getting married for the seventh time you appear to be placing hope in front of experience. </div></div>

Well have you really consider what you are saying here?
This happens every time, to every citizen in any jurisdiction where democracy is practiced.
What is so different about Jamaica?

We have to place hope in front of experience, it is the proper thing to do now, given that the 27 year run of the PNP has resulted in more crime, more poverty, more citizens been made refugees in their own country, more abuse of their human rights and a totally destroyed economy.

To hear you tell we should keep all of the about and forget about changing what is now the status quo.

[Sinco01]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was Menlie who started the borrowing train rolling

and untill now no one is doing anything to improve our energy neeeds and cut oil consumption ...

no push to thoroughly utilize sun, wind and water which we have in abudance ..

as long as we are dependent on someone elses oil this debt will not be under control </div></div>

.... but the debt was or is still not made up merely the cost of our energy needs? ..<span style="color: #CC0000">True</span>
There were plans especially in the 70s to use alternative energy but those plans were shelved in the heady days of PJoke Terms in office and only revived in his last year in power.

So it is not true at all to say no one is talking about alternatives! - <span style="color: #CC0000">not talking .. we need action</span>

In any case China, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland and other manufacturing powerhouses all dependant on other people’s oil.
</div></div> - <span style="color: #CC0000">they can afford to pay for it </span>


i still think it eats up too much of our foreign exchange/dollars

[Gen]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"As mi get a money mi buy fish and put inna mi fridge ... and mi start buy up some lingerie already...."</div></div>

Yu si tha part yah?

Now you tell me.... only in Jamaica can Fish and Lingerie look right inna the same sentence.
</div></div>

mi confused..wah she a buy up lingerie fah [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] why is that even relevant [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek2.gif[/img]

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Tuff Gong,
In the United States you would be termed a "bitter ender" in that you will stick to outmoded and ineffective arguments until the bitter end.

Manley has been out of power and dead for many, many years. To say that he is responsible for the condition Jamaica is in today is just ludicrous.

You seem to be saying that Manley's policies were so disastrous that he was ousted in favor of Edward Seaga and the PNP but then those succeeding Manley made so few changes in those disastrous policies that Jamaica is in the terrible shape it is today.

Now I'll ask you again; what are the policy changes that the JLP has in store for Jamaica when the electorate votes them in again that will result in any serious change in the status quo?

It is my contention that the problems in Jamaica stem from the same problems that afflict much of the Third World; a huge and crippling debt-the result of continuing neo-colonialism in which the financial resources necessary for development and rebuilding of the infrastructure are sent out of the country to the wealthy nations who lend money.
Jamaica is also faced with the socially destructive problem of the gun violence stemming from the massive and mysterious influx of guns in the late 70's and early 80's and the internecine fighting between Jamaicans loyal to the two parties.
A goodly percentage of the gun violence now is committed during the commission of crimes like robberies and person to person shootings.

Neither party has the solution to these problems and the evidence is all around you if you would only open your eyes and your closed mind.

One last question: At what point in the future does Jamaica's plight cease to be Michael Manley's fault or will he be your bete noire forever?

You really do hate him don't you?