"...now have to be sacrficed..."

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Geneva</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"As mi get a money mi buy fish and put inna mi fridge ... and mi start buy up some lingerie already...."</div></div>

Yu si tha part yah?

Now you tell me.... only in Jamaica can Fish and Lingerie look right inna the same sentence.
</div></div>

mi confused..wah she a buy up lingerie fah [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif[/img] why is that even relevant [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek2.gif[/img] </div></div>

To sell on her stall!
The dates might ask the guys to contribute to the evening by buying sexy lingerie.....It's a man ting you wouldn't get it!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong,
In the United States you would be termed a "bitter ender" in that you will stick to outmoded and ineffective arguments until the bitter end.

Manley has been out of power and dead for many, many years. To say that he is responsible for the condition Jamaica is in today is just ludicrous.

You seem to be saying that Manley's policies were so disastrous that he was ousted in favor of Edward Seaga and the PNP but then those succeeding Manley made so few changes in those disastrous policies that Jamaica is in the terrible shape it is today.

Now I'll ask you again; what are the policy changes that the JLP has in store for Jamaica when the electorate votes them in again that will result in any serious change in the status quo?

It is my contention that the problems in Jamaica stem from the same problems that afflict much of the Third World; a huge and crippling debt-the result of continuing neo-colonialism in which the financial resources necessary for development and rebuilding of the infrastructure are sent out of the country to the wealthy nations who lend money.
Jamaica is also faced with the socially destructive problem of the gun violence stemming from the massive and mysterious influx of guns in the late 70's and early 80's and the internecine fighting between Jamaicans loyal to the two parties.
A goodly percentage of the gun violence now is committed during the commission of crimes like robberies and person to person shootings.

Neither party has the solution to these problems and the evidence is all around you if you would only open your eyes and your closed mind.

One last question: At what point in the future does Jamaica's plight cease to be Michael Manley's fault or will he be your bete noire forever?

You really do hate him don't you? </div></div>

Wait a second you are accusing me of being a what, a bitter ender?
Then you go on to what ...post, your usual drivel about why we have the problems we have?
<ul>[*]Let's check the facts:[*]Menlie has been dead and gone[*]fact I have said that and was the first to say that[*]fact it was you who brought his name up and continue to bring his name up @ every opportunity[*]fact you continue to post on in a couple of fora about the CIA intervention in Jamaica, yet you have shown no concrete proof of same.[*]fact you continue to claim Jamaica’s problem is rooted in the XYZ and Alphabet soup of CIA/IMF/World Bank/Neocolonialist intrigue yet you chide me for making the connection between the failed polices of Menlie to the state of Jamaica today?[*]fact is Menlie did have second chance and but for his retirement might well have been still sitting there are the party he led then, had 4 straight terms in office.[*]fact the JLP has only one opportunity to for the Government; yet in this same topic you are blaming and have always blame them for Jamaica's problems.[*]fact you have consistently failed to produced dates, times, stats to back up any of you prognosis yet you hold on as if you life is dependent upon the falsehood you write.[/list]
Who is the so-called bitter-ender?

Yo Johnny Flakes ease off and don't take it further because I am about to show you another side. Don't start the name calling because I won't end it.

I suppose the reason such as you find this board so welcoming, is that you can pontificate on matters way beyond your level of competency and mental capacity and no one challenges you on your lack veracity.


That was uncalled for Tuff Gong....Lets keep it civil

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Tuff Gong,
You can't answer my questions so you try resorting to racist name-calling to distract from that fact. How puerile. I'm truly devastated by your razor-sharp wit but i'll try to carry on.

I'm going public with your discovery whether you like it or not and here's what the headline will read in the Gleaner:

JAMAICA'S PROBLEMS ARE ALL MANLEY'S DUPPY'S FAULT
Racist Bitter-Ender Makes Startling Revelation in Jamaicans.Com Forum
Entire Country DWL!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong,
You can't answer my questions so you try resorting to racist name-calling to distract from that fact. How puerile. I'm truly devastated by your razor-sharp wit but i'll try to carry on.

I'm going public with your discovery whether you like it or not and here's what the headline will read in the Gleaner:

JAMAICA'S PROBLEMS ARE ALL MANLEY'S DUPPY'S FAULT
Racist Bitter-Ender Makes Startling Revelation in Jamaicans.Com Forum
Entire Country DWL!

</div></div>

What questions?

You started the name calling!

If it is this one let me attempt to take you out of your misery.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really do hate him don't you? </div></div>

I never told you that…but you hear voices in the head, so I take the opportunity to disabuse you of what you think you might have heard/imaigned I said in that regard.

Of course I hated his policies, but I met him and he was a nice person, I have said this over and over. I even made and presented him with a Peanut Dish on the urgings of my teacher.

You Johnny Flakes on the other hand have very good reason(s) to admire and his polices. The 21 families owning the Jamaica, the human right and political abuse, the fi wi time now, 5 flights a day dictum, because without that it would be unlikely that some Jamaicans would become refugees inside and outside of Jamaica, thereby providing foreigners like you the opportunity to buy up Jamaica at fire sale prices.

...but there comes a time when as in Menlie's own words, one has to trade ones self-interests for enlightened self-interests.
We overstand you are just not there yet.

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Sorry Tuff Gong,

But...you just come across as someone who never has anything good to say about Manley and everything good about the JLP which is certainly just as bad for Jamaica as the PNP and Manley ever was.

Do you have any answers to Jamaica's problems or are you just going to attack the messenger?

What policies does the JLP have that will in any serious way mitigate Jamaica's problems?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry Tuff Gong,

But...you just come across as someone who never has anything good to say about Manley and everything good about the JLP which is certainly just as bad for Jamaica as the PNP and Manley ever was.

Do you have any answers to Jamaica's problems or are you just going to attack the messenger?

What policies does the JLP have that will in any serious way mitigate Jamaica's problems? </div></div>

You are a damn liar.
You were here when I was attacked for attacking:

the JLP
the USA
the PNP
called a Communist
called a Leftist (which was true)
called a PNP supporter (which was true)

Why does my criticism of the socio-political and socio-economic matters are seen as attacks?

Look Johnny Flakes, please do better to shore up your own illogical arguments. Every criticism of me that you have made of my comments has reflected badly on you?
Like a mirror held up so you can view tangled web you weave.

I go where the truth takes me. I have friends, brothers, countrymen and women in Jamaica. I don't have to pay no attention to spin-doctors posing as messengers on a BB.

Get the facts, don't accuse me of what I never wrote or just put down the crack-pipe.

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Okay Tuff Gong,
Enough of the vitriol. Let's just cut to the chase.

First, what do you have for practical solutions to Jamaica's problems?
Practical meaning things in the realm of probability and not just possible if Jesus Christ returns.

What policies does the JLP have that will in any serious way mitigate Jamaica's problems?
You can include or exclude all of the things tried in the past that have failed but if you include things that have failed in the past, please explain how they will now be able to work.

These are not trick questions.
These are questions that can also be asked of anyone in any developing country with serious social and economic problems.

I'd be sincerely interested in your thoughts on these matters.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay Tuff Gong,
Enough of the vitriol. Let's just cut to the chase.

First, what do you have for practical solutions to Jamaica's problems?
Practical meaning things in the realm of probability and not just possible if Jesus Christ returns.

What policies does the JLP have that will in any serious way mitigate Jamaica's problems?
You can include or exclude all of the things tried in the past that have failed but if you include things that have failed in the past, please explain how they will now be able to work.

These are not trick questions.
These are questions that can also be asked of anyone in any developing country with serious social and economic problems.

I'd be sincerely interested in your thoughts on these matters. </div></div>

Are you?

Well I have communicated them time and time again, but I am going to vary from anything I have said in the past to say this:

Given that the PNP has done dis-serve Jamaica for 18 years. They have not listened, will not listen, continue to perpetuate serious human rights abuses, cannot get garbage out of the streets, can see to the health, security, economy and has been the single most corrupted Administration in the history of Independent Jamaica, the only solution is to vote them out.

There are no other alternatives!

The JLP as we speak is still working on their manifesto. I think they should take their time. They don't even need one this trip.

[Wardob]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

As Tuff` said, the JLP Manifesto under the Golding Leadership, is not completed. However if one is interested in what it would look like he or she can read that of the Seaga Lead JLP, with some minor changes Golding’s I believe will be somewhat along the said line.

But for those who know not the JLP, here are some facts about the party, especially under the leadership of Mr. Edward Seaga, you might find interesting.
And to the apologist please if you may, list your party accomplishments for comparison especially those under the leadership of Mr. Michael Manley. I wont hold my breath anyhow. Happy reading


1944-55

: The University College of the West Indies was established
: A Beginning of a massive Primary School Building
: A total of 88 Schools were built to accommodate 99,000 children of School age


1962-1972

: 50 Junior Secondary School and 120 Primary School were built, which widen the educational opportunities for the children of the poor to make Primary and Secondary education available for 64,000 children who even in 1962 still had no School
: Tertiary Education Institution, including that for Agriculture, were upgraded and advance, and technical education was made free of cost to all students
: Teachers College were improved and expanded
: Youth training was expanded, as Cobbla and Chester vale Youth Camps were improved. New Youth Camps for Boys were open in Kenilworth in Hanover and Luidas Vale in St. Catherine as well as one for Girls in Cape Clear, St. Mary
: Student Oan Fun, operated by the BOJ, was established to aid needy students at the UWI , CAST and the Teachers Colleges

1980-1989.

: Extensive School construction programmed coupled with the provision of free School Textbooks and School feeding programme.
: Establishment of the Human Employment and Resource Trust (H.E.A.R.T)
: To promote national, industrial and economic growth and expansion C.A.S.T was encourage teaching degree courses. In response C.A.S.T. offered several; degree courses.
: Removal of the School of Agriculture from Twickenham Park to Portland and upgrade to a College of Agriculture teaching Associates Degree.
: Establishment of the Police Academy, with special courses fro the Officer Corps of Jamaica and the Caribbean

Planning and Development.

: 1963 see the 5yrs Development Plan
: 1966. Redevelopment of Kingston Waterfront
: 1967. Reclamation and development of Ochio Rios Waterfront (Turtle Beach)
1967. Comprehensive planned urban community-transformation of “Back-O-Wall” slum to Tivoli Garden ,a modern, fully, planned urban development; Hillshire Hills, Development, Portmore Town Centre (Torrington Park)

: 1968: UDC
: 1969. CRIDP
: 1971. 20 –Year Physical Development Plan
: 1983. National Conference Centre- HQ SA.
: 1983. National Committee on Drug Abuse
: 1985. MPM- Beautification and Public Cleansing
: 1988. Reclamation of Montego Bay Waterfront
: 1988. Negril development (Bloody Bay)


Social Programmes

: 1963. Construction of National Arena
: 1963. Things Jamaica
: Drug Abuse Council
: 1964. 100 Villages Community Development Programme
: 1965. Community Sports Development on structure island wide
: 1965. Golden Age Movement.
: 1965. National Volunteers
: 1970. Student Revolving Loan Fund for Higher Education
: 1971. National School Feeding Programme
: 1972. Jamaica Racing Commission
: 1974. Institute of Media &amp;Communication (CARIMAC)
: 1984. Food Stamp Programme
: 1985. Golden Age Home for the elderly poor
: 1986. L.E.A.P
: 1988. P.A.C.
: 1988. Residential Halls for UWI, C.A.S.T. and Cultural Training Centre.

Cultural Programmes

: 1963. Jamaica Festival
: 1964 Promotion and launching Jamaica Music (Ska)abroad
: 1964. Return of Marcus Garvey body to Jamaica
: 1964. Order of National Heroes- Garvey First Hero
: 1964. National Heros Park
: 1965 &amp; 69. Arawak and Port Royal Museums
: 1967. Institute of Jamaica
: 1967. Research and recording of Folk Culture
: 1967. Devon House
: 1968. National Heritage Week
: 1971. Design of Culture Training Centre
: 1972. Racing Commission and Jockey School
: 1988. Planning development of Heritage sites (Port Royal, Spanish Town, (Seville)
: 1988. Media Divestment Programme to establish several small private radio stations and church television

That’s all for now more is available on their web site

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."


I doubt the Menlie LowJackers will be able to counter with anything, near as impressive as this. As I remember it all of the so-called accomplishments of Menlie, except for the NHT and the Bauxite Levy has been obliterated. They too are hanging by a thread.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."


Oh I have to correct myself....There is no more Bauxite Levy!

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Wardob,

Many thanks for the post. I found it to be of great help. I went to and read a great deal of the JLP Manifesto and found it both very informative and very depressing.

I did have a problem with the statistics, many of which only went as far as 2001 which makes them 5-6 years old and which makes determining whether Jamaica's conditions are improving or worsening difficult to tell.

Up until now this thread has been dealing with the past which all have agreed has been bleak. The JLP Manifesto's style of stating what is going on now (or back in 2001) and then stating what they intended to do about the deplorable social and economic conditions was very eye opening.

I found the statistics for education, health and employment to be most discouraging but environmental degradation, falling tourism, and the lack of discussion of the debt crisis to also be saddening.

What I found to be most disheartening was what the JLP proposes to fix the problems and it essentially is more of the same top-down, pie-in-the-sky trickle down economics that depends on either unrealistic assunmptions on economic growth that will generate money for the proposed projects and/or more borrowing by issuance of low interest bonds.

All the borrowing of the past did very little to ameliorate the same problems and all the projects which amounted to very little in the end are going to be repeated in a very slightly different fashion. Trickle-down economics almost invariably winds up with a lot of money going to the people at the top and very very little trickling down to the people at the bottom who need it.

Just read through that Manifesto and count how many schemes and plans are listed!
Given the GDP and the amount that has to be paid out to the lenders (debt) there is no way that Jamaica can institute a fraction of those and given that they are the same old, same old, I just do not see any chance for much change in either the social or economic woes which are intertwined.

Despite Tuff Gong's shilling for the JLP, I don't see that there is much difference in the economic pipe dreams of either party.

As I said before it's like someone marrying for the seventh time: It's hoping for the best in the face of prior experience.

I suspect the past will be prologue.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wardob,

Many thanks for the post. I found it to be of great help. I went to and read a great deal of the JLP Manifesto and found it both very informative and very depressing.

I did have a problem with the statistics, many of which only went as far as 2001 which makes them 5-6 years old and which makes determining whether Jamaica's conditions are improving or worsening difficult to tell.</div></div>

Are you serious?

Why don't you then compare the stats, with the current situation?

On a point of note, it was you who took us back to the past.
This thread actually starts from the present and looks outward to the future.
Go back and read the first few pages, if you can!

[Wardob]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Johnny good to see you have the time to read the old JLP Manifesto and the list of accomplishment of the JLP
Take a look also at that of the PNP during the same election period, compare it to where they are today and let me know how much they have accomplished.
You know I have great resPect for your out spookiness and your willingness to stand up for your belief, but I have told you a million times, Jamaicans will not willingly be governed under a Socialist, Communist or the fake Democratic Socialism system. Michael to his credit tried it, we reject it, call us what you wish and blame the CIA all you want but Like it or not, to the good or bad Jamaica nable string cut in the capitalist system .We have gone through this before, so leave it at that.

As I said I believe some change or changes will be made where or what I cannot say as I don’t speak for the JLP or anyone within the party. I am just basing my belief on what leader Golding and the rest of the party is saying publicly.

“I doubt the Menlie LowJackers will be able to counter with anything, near as impressive as this. As I remember it all of the so-called accomplishments of Menlie, except for the NHT and the Bauxite Levy has been obliterated. They too are hanging by a thread.”……… Tuff.

Some people hate to be challenge about their misinformation about the JLP. They have a problem when face with the truth, so your observation maybe correct. However I know they are fully aware of all that I posted, its no secret its public knowledge, and can be found on the JLP Web Site, but their hatred for Mr. Seaga and the JLP, will not allow them to admit that the JLP under the leadership of Mr. Seaga as moved the Country in all areas of Financial Development, Social and Cultural Programmes, and that the plain truth is the Seaga lead JLP was far superior in every way, shape or form than the Michael Manley lead PNP

<u>MORE ACCOMPLISHMENT BY THE JLP</u>


INSTITUTIONAL, PARLIAMENTARY POLITICAL REFORMS.

1961: Member of Parliament Commission which drafted the Constitution for Independent Jamaica
1979: Electoral reforms, structure EAC
1986: Establishment of the Contractor General proposal
1986: Media Commission
1992: Constitutional Reform: Advocate (PD)
1993: Constitutional Reform: .Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedom
1994: Several Parliamentary reforms to strengthen the independence of Parliament to allow NON PARLIAMENTARIANS to address Parliament on issues
1994: Money Bill tabled in Parliament to regulate money supply by law.

INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMES

1974: UNESCO International Fund for the Promotion of Culture
1982: Caribbean Business Initiative
1986: INDP
1986: CARIBCAN.

HEALTH.

The University College Hospital of the West Indies came into existence.


Now what does the PNP in disguise find here to critique?

[johnnycakes]

Re: "...now have to be sacrficed..."

Wardob,
Again thanks for your useful and objective imput.

I went back and reread several parts of the JLP Manifestoand looked at the current situation and find that not much of what I've contended from the start can be seriously questioned.

The PNP is looking to further privatise publicly run operations. It is looking to raise funds by issuing bonds which is borrowing under another name and renegotiating old loans. The Manifesto was noticebly lacking in talking of the debt problem which is a crippler that makes so many solutions to on-going problems impossible.

The JLP is admittedly pro-business/pro-capitalist and adheres to neo-liberal economic which is no more than the trickle-down economics which did not work even in the rich United States where the infrastructure and sufficient funding existed under Reagan. The end result of giving money to the corporations and people at the top to fund economic expansion is that the people at t5he top get richers and a very small amount of that funding, a very small amount of effective infrastructure ofr job creating occurs and the poor and working class do not benefit in any meaningful way.
Venezuela, Bolivia and a few other countries in Latin America have said outright that neo-liberal economics has not worked, is not working and that there is no sign of neo-liberal econimics doing much but either stagnating the economies of Third World countries or even worsening the situations of those countries.

You said in your post above that Jamaica tried socialism but that is like a smoker saying that he tried smoking one less cigarette and it didn't help him quit smoking.
Jamaica tried a few baby steps toward socialist economics but that is like saying that the United States welfare payments to the very poorest did not end poverty, therefore socialism doesn't work.

Manley's few measures never got close to addressing the root causes of Jamaica's problems which essentially are those of poverty, neo-colonialism and underdevelopment.

I contend that neither the PNP nor the JLP have programs that can address these problems and history bears me out.


All I am hearing is that the PNP policies have made things worse, that the JLP policies made things better but that the Jamaican people voted them out anyway and in the meantime Jamaica has stagnated or regressed in making any meaningful progress.

All I saw offered in the JLP manifesto was more of the same failed policies. All I see in the PNP is more of the same.

Each party has grandiose schemes and high sounding platitudes, many of which are couched in terms so obfuscating that I have trouble understanding what they're trying to say.

If you take a look at the Third World countries in the world, there are very few success stories and none in countries that have the problems of corruption, violence , debt and poor governance that Jamaica has

I've read through all the accomplishments that you've listed for the JLP but after all that, what has really changed in the lives of the poor and working Jamaicans?

Any change has been incremental at best and in the 28 years I've been coming to Jamaica I can only say that things seem to have gotten worse.

Again, either of the two parties is doing amounts to reshuffling the same old cards and the rich are either getting richer or leaving the country. The fact that the second highest source of income for Jamaica is money sent back from those who have left for better work elsewhere speaks volumes.

I find the educational statistics extremely disheartening with 20% not going to school and illiteracy rates at 50% in some segments. The poverty and despair in the elderly population for whom no work or government care is provided is very sad.
Poor medical care or none, corruption, crime, violence, joblessness.
None of these are being addressed or rather none of these have had any serious declines under any of the programs either planned or put into effect by the
governments of either party.


Maybe because I'm not a Jamaican, that I don't live amidst the problem but observe from outside and maybe because I follow 21st century socialist developments in Cuba, Venezuela and elsewhere and see the possibilities for other poor countries that I have the positions that I do.

Why is it that Jamaica cannot adopt at least some of the programs that have worked in Cuba and Venezuela like the literacy programs? There is nothing inherently socialist about those programs that should raise the hackles of the capitalist bitter-enders. Those literacy programs in Cuba and Venezuela worked wonders in a very short time and there are other local grass roots political programs that work in parallel with existing party structures that seem to be working well in Venezuela

All I am saying is that neo-liberal economics, that is U.S style capitalism cannot work in the Third World except in a very select few countries like Singapore. It certainly has not worked in Jamaica and shows no sign of working no matter how many times the two capitalist parties reshuffle the deck.

Neo-liberal economics require infrastructure, resources and certainly nothing like the debt servicing that Jamaica and other poor countries must deal with.

Thabo Mbeki in South Africa has recently announced a new trickle-down neo-liberal economic plan to address his countries problems and I'm taking bets right now that it won't work AGAIN.

I just do not understand where any Jamaican gets the idea that failed policies of the past if reintroduced as old wine in new bottles will work any better than they have in the past which is not at all.

Maybe, and I'm not joking, this hope, this faith in failed systems is based on and tied in with the belief in the Bible and other myths which would have us getting our rewards in heaven AFTER we've died and which would have the meek inheriting the Earth, that the last shall be first and that we should "render unto Caesar".

Like Reverend Ike used to say before he went to meet Jesus; "Never mind that pie in the sky bye and bye, I want mine NOW and with ice cream on it."

Question: At what point will people like Tuff Gong admit that the existing parties have no answers to Jamaica's problems and are, in fact, part of the problems?

How many years of declining standards of living, health, safety will it take?

Where are Jamaica's visionary leaders?