Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

[johnnycakes]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

Tuff Going,

I think we've pretty much gone through anything substantive on Jamaica's problems and come to the conclusion that the PNP has no solutions but rather is a big part of the problem.

We diverge on the matter of the JLP. You believe that they did incrementally better when they were in power but that because of the perverse nature of the Jamaican electorate, the JLP was voted out anyway preferring the failed policies of the PNP.

I contend that there is not much difference in the policies of the two parties and that the minor differences in the PNP policies were only were able to create minor improvements in the major problems. Since then Jamaica has continued its downhill slide.

When I asked for what your solutions to the problems were or what you thought the JLP offered through its policies that would ameliorate those serious problems you replied only that you would have to wait for the new JLP manifesto.

That reply tells me that you have no concrete ideas on solving Jamaica's problems within the existing systems of twin capitalist party politics and a (failed) neo-liberal economy.

I am a supporter of 21st century socialism as a way out of poverty and the problems that arise from poverty.
Having a huge percentage of kids not going to school or not able to continue because of lack of money for schools is not acceptable unless you want a two-tier society of have and have-nots. Massive unemployment and underemployment has terrible social effects. Lack of proper and adequate medical and mental care, well that speaks for itself. Having the third highest murder rate in the world which is due in large part to unemployment and that to poverty needs fixing.

None of those things listed above which are killing Jamaica exist in poor socialist Cuba in which the average income is over $1000.00U.S less than it is in Jamaica..
They are not only possible but probable in a non-democratic, capitalist, poor Third World society like Jamaica.

You've as much as admitted that neo-liberal economic policies do not work in Jamaica or at least not for the last 25 years. You hang on to a political system that is top down, not democratic and which perpetuates the status quo and which is locked into the very neo-liberal economic policies that have never worked.


That's the issue.

As it stands the nature of the Jamaican electorate pretty much dictates no change for the foreseeable future. They pretty much agree with you that the devil they know is better than the devil they don't know.

The big question is: How much worse can things get?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Going,

I think we've pretty much gone through anything substantive on Jamaica's problems and come to the conclusion that the PNP has no solutions but rather is a big part of the problem.

We diverge on the matter of the JLP. You believe that they did incrementally better when they were in power but that because of the perverse nature of the Jamaican electorate, the JLP was voted out anyway preferring the failed policies of the PNP.
</div></div>
Correction the JLP was way better.

When the PNP came to power in the 70s the growth rate was 6%.
When the PNP was voted out in 1980 the economy had tanked and growth rate was in negative.

When the JLP was voted out in 1989 Jamaica was growing 6% over the previous figures.
In 17 years of PNP machinations the economy has never even pass the 1% mark and all growth rates are now calculated over the new PNP Government mark which makes it about 3%.

Most of the factories that has employed hundreds of workers are now shuttered and we owe about a trillion $Ja of debt.

Significantly different from anything you have stated.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Going,

I think we've pretty much gone through anything substantive on Jamaica's problems and come to the conclusion that the PNP has no solutions but rather is a big part of the problem.

We diverge on the matter of the JLP. You believe that they did incrementally better when they were in power but that because of the perverse nature of the Jamaican electorate, the JLP was voted out anyway preferring the failed policies of the PNP.
</div></div>
Correction the JLP was way better.

When the PNP came to power in the 70s the growth rate was 6%.
When the PNP was voted out in 1980 the economy had tanked and growth rate was in negative.

When the JLP was voted out in 1989 Jamaica was growing 6% over the previous figures.
In 17 years of PNP machinations the economy has never even pass the 1% mark and all growth rates are now calculated over the new PNP Government mark which makes it about 3%.

Most of the factories that has employed hundreds of workers are now shuttered and we owe about a trillion $Ja of debt.

Significantly different from anything you have stated.
</div></div>
The one and three percentage growth rates amount to much more than the 6 percentage rate.
the meat of thematter is 6% of what? ..and 3% of what.
the size of the economy is still much greater than they cllaim it is. since even the UN acknowledge that 40+5 of the present Jamaican economy is not counted or included in the statistics, but who wnat to know that?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The one and three percentage growth rates amount to much more than the 6 percentage rate.
the meat of thematter is 6% of what? ..and 3% of what.</div></div>

Well let's get to that.
I can answer in about a few sentences.

The Government is counting the percentage starting from their destruction of the Economy, not added to the JLP's 80s numbers or worse the pre-70s numbers.

The economy is still smaller that the pre-70s figure, still smaller than even the 80s numbers, it terms of size and variety and except in inflated dollar numb

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the size of the economy is still much greater than they cllaim it is. since even the UN acknowledge that 40+5 of the present Jamaican economy is not counted or included in the statistics, but who wnat to know that? </div></div>

Let's talk about what we can count, what there are verifiable figures for.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

The region as a whole did fairly well from 1960-1980 then dropped during the period 1980-2000 and since then has gone flat.

Again the question arises of why the Jamaican people did not keep the JLP in power if things were so much better under their leadership?

I think the answer is that while the economy as a whole may have done better while Seaga was in power, the benefits went largely to those at the top just as they did in the United States. The "trickle-down"' theory isand was just an excuse to enrich thsoe at the top. From 1980 on, at least in the region as a whole and definitely in the U.S the standard of living dropped for the working class while there was an enormous transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

The following article explains how this worked out in Latin America and it reads very much like what went on in the Caribbean and Jamaica as well.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=20&ItemID=12367

Is it also not true that when Seaga won office that he was granted the loans that Manley was denied and it was these loans that financed the temporary upsurge in the economy? After which the downhill slide continued. No?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The region as a whole did fairly well from 1960-1980 then dropped during the period 1980-2000 and since then has gone flat.</div></div>

You don't know what you are talking about.
Let's say we accept your blanket assessment why did the Jamaican economy lose 25% in the 70s?

Why did economy pick up in the 80s even in the face of decline in bauxite earnings, IMF structural Adjustment and the fallout from the 70s?

Why did the PNP2 with Menlie/Patterson fail to continue the magic of the 80s when our largest Trading Partner had 8 years straight worth of record growth?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again the question arises of why the Jamaican people did not keep the JLP in power if things were so much better under their leadership?</div></div>

Same answer as in choosing Menlie the first time coming out of what you yourself is now admitting...the heady days of the 60s which supposedly continued until the 90s.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the answer is that while the economy as a whole may have done better while Seaga was in power, the benefits went largely to those at the top just as they did in the United States.</div></div>

Don't think or I should say start thinking. You never lived in Jamaica, I did.
If it was true then that only the rich benefited it is even worse now.

It is a well-worn, foolish notion bandied about by armchair socilistas that the poor automatically suffer when the rich benefit.
It is also another fallacy to say that when an economy is doing well, all citizens will/should benefit equally in real time.

That is a foolish notion under any Political Economy.
Be is Cuba, Singapore, China, The USA, Brazil, Venezuela, etc.
I challenge you to prove me wrong.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it also not true that when Seaga won office that he was granted the loans that Manley was denied and it was these loans that financed the temporary upsurge in the economy? After which the downhill slide continued. No?</div></div>

False.

It was Michael Menlie who went to the IMF got loans and left a lot of it unpaid. Eddie Blinds got loans, but most of it again went to deal with Menlie's debts.

Why don't you draw other sensible comparison pre and post comparisons such as:

the state of the economy
the state of the country
the state of the infrastructure
the exchange rate
the crime situation
the state of citizens/Human Rights

[johnnycakes]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

Tuff Gong,
We agree.

In a capitalist economy a rising tide does not lift all boats.

In the U.S there was a trillion dollar transfer from the poor to the rich over the past 25 years during which (the 90's) the U.S had the biggest economic boom in its history.

It is no secret that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer not only in the underdeveloped Third World but in the richest country on Earth.


There are about 1000 billionaires in the world today and each year 12 million people starve to death because they lack the money to buy food.

Those are the extremes but that scenario is far more common in the poorer Third World than in the First World.

Capitalism has had a couple of thousand years to become more humane and it has not only not done so, it has become even more inhumane.

That's why why I support democratic socialism. It feeds, clothes, house, provides medicine and education for everyone in Cuba. In Venezuela in parallel with the existing capitalist structure it has about eliminated illiteracy and greatly reduced the poverty rate which stood at 80% before the Chavista changes.

The capitalism you support cannot do any of those things, never has and never will because it's driven by greed and not human need.

It's a failure on a colossal and horrifying scale for anyone who cares about people and not the almighty dollar.

It is this failed economic system that is supported by the JLP and the PNP and that is why you cannot expect change from them.

That's what it all comes down to.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Tuff Gong,
We agree.

In a capitalist economy a rising tide does not lift all boats.</div></div>

No economy in any moving from under performing to a positive outlook cannot do for all. Yes it is especially pronounced in a Capitalist Economy, all things being equal.

Of course all things in this world will never be equal.
Wars, racism, cultural backlash, class prejudice, religious bias, poor management of resources, corruption and natural disasters, (to name a few), play very important parts, in the input and the resulting outcome and must be checked off against what is number on paper.

There is no truthful way, beyond theory, to say this political economy is better than the next, since in the modern world none has really been given a chance based purely on its merits.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Tuff Gong,
We agree.

In a capitalist economy a rising tide does not lift all boats.</div></div>



"TG-No economy in any moving from under performing to a positive outlook cannot do for all. Yes it is especially pronounced in a Capitalist Economy, all things being equal.


JC- Except of course in SOCIALIST Cuba which is exactly my point.
Capitalism is, by its very nature, a top-down form. Any growth especially that prompted by government spending or subsidies begins with the big corporations, at the top and in very few circumstances ever filters down, trickles down to the poor.
Of course it is especially pronounced in a capitalist economy.

A socialist economy puts the needs of the neediest first. A capitalist economy puts the wealth and propert of the rich first.
Not very complicated and the outcomes are both predictable and evident.


TG_"Of course all things in this world will never be equal.
Wars, racism, cultural backlash, class prejudice, religious bias, poor management of resources, corruption and natural disasters, (to name a few), play very important parts, in the input and the resulting outcome and must be checked off against what is number on "


JC- Not to forget how the goods and services of a given society are distributed and not to forget or fail to see how so many of those things you listed above no longer come into play in socialist Cuba.

TG "There is no truthful way, beyond theory, to say this political economy is better than the next, since in the modern world none has really been given a chance based purely on its merits."


JC- A political economy? Do you mean a capitalist economy with the non-democratic twin (multi) party electoral system as it exists in most countries?
While it is true that Cuba has not had a chance, given the 55 year U.S war against it, to be all that it could be, it has made remarkable strides in ending the things like crime, illiteracy, lack of medical care, corruption that are causing Jamaica so much grief.



</div></div>

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=johnnycakes] Tuff Gong,
We agree.

In a capitalist economy a rising tide does not lift all boats.</div></div>



"TG-No economy in any moving from under performing to a positive outlook cannot do for all. Yes it is especially pronounced in a Capitalist Economy, all things being equal.


JC- Except of course in SOCIALIST Cuba which is exactly my point. </div></div>

Prove this?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TG_"Of course all things in this world will never be equal.
Wars, racism, cultural backlash, class prejudice, religious bias, poor management of resources, corruption and natural disasters, (to name a few), play very important parts, in the input and the resulting outcome and must be checked off against what is number on "


JC- Not to forget how the goods and services of a given society are distributed and not to forget or fail to see how so many of those things you listed above no longer come into play in socialist Cuba.

TG "There is no truthful way, beyond theory, to say this political economy is better than the next, since in the modern world none has really been given a chance based purely on its merits."


JC- A political economy? Do you mean a capitalist economy with the non-democratic twin (multi) party electoral system as it exists in most countries?
While it is true that Cuba has not had a chance, given the 55 year U.S war against it, to be all that it could be, it has made remarkable strides in ending the things like crime, illiteracy, lack of medical care, corruption that are causing Jamaica so much grief. </div></div>

Johnny Cakes no political economy in modern times has ever had the chance to exist and operate on its merits.
It is as simply as what holds for Cuba holds for the world at large.
Countries don't exist in a vacuum, the closet to that was the Balkans, North Korea, Afghanistan and Turkmenistan, and we see the results of that.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

[

Johnny Cakes no political economy in modern times has ever had the chance to exist and operate on its merits.
It is as simply as what holds for Cuba holds for the world at large.
Countries don't exist in a vacuum, the closet to that was the Balkans, North Korea, Afghanistan and Turkmenistan, and we see the results of that.
[/quote]



Tuff Gong,

Cuba's Fidelista driven socialism and Cuba's Poder Popular electoral system are very far removed from the old Stalinist forms and the corrupt Leninist top-down socialism that persists in places like the DPRK.Afghanistan never was anything more than a tribalsociety even during their brief experiment with Soviet backed socialism. The Balkans pretty much the same as the Soviet Union since that's who really ran things.

No Cuba is somthing far different from those examples and Venezuela is even different from Cuba in that it is heading towards socialism without a violent revolution but rather through the ballot box.

That gives hope to people in other countries for radical change without the violence and deaths that have been necessary in the past.

Cuba has done what it has with a lot of Soviet aid up to 1990 and then hit a poor patch before hitting high gear economically after the turn of the century. It did this "in a vacuum" with no appreciable help from any other country.
Cuba's future now looks even rosier given the rise of the socialist movement throughout Latin America.

I would hope that the corrupt "communist" systems in China, the DPRK and elsewhere would fade into history and more egalitarian and democratic forms of socialism and democratic electoral systems take their place.

They have given the names of communism and socialism a black eye that in the case of Cuba and Venezuela is undeserved.

Capitalism and the multi-party systems that support and perpetuate capitalism are becoming unworkable and have failed to take care of the people which is what political and economic systems should be all about.

It is what democratic socialism: 21st Century Socialism IS all about and I believe it's about time.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Chavez saves Jamaica's LNG plan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong,

Cuba's Fidelista driven socialism and Cuba's Poder Popular electoral system are very far removed from the old Stalinist forms and the corrupt Leninist top-down socialism that persists in places like the DPRK.Afghanistan never was anything more than a tribalsociety even during their brief experiment with Soviet backed socialism. The Balkans pretty much the same as the Soviet Union since that's who really ran things.</div></div>

Yaawn!
I don't need a treatise on Socialism, especially revisionist socilista his-tory. No country exists in a vacuum, no system in modern times has been tested, based on all things been equal.

As usual there are only three arguments in respect of Jamaica for the Low-Jackers.

The Manli is God argument
Cuba is all things to all people
The USA was and still is hell bent on destroying Jamaica.

Pretty soon all arguments on this board in respect of Jamaica's Socio-Economic and Socio-Political history direction, devolves into one, all or a combination of these 3 arguments.

All too soon, the so-called LNG deal with Venezuela gets low-jacked, blown away replaced by the bovine scatology, that is de rigueur, dripped from the pens of those quoting from the, first and second books of the Fringe-Left-Bible.
No one can tell us how Venezuela (who does not even have the manufacturing capability to deliver this fuel to Jamaica) will be able (or when if they are), to deliver the goods?