Seaga Reasoning

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just happen to be aware of a slightly different history of his life.
It is in the archives of a prominent ivy league unoversity. It is not as glowing of Mr bustamante. ever wonder why he as an ordinary citizen could have his letter to th eeditor printed in the Gleaner every day for over thfee years between the time he returned from the USA and becomming involved in the labour movement?
</div></div>

Actually you posted it before to discredit Busta, but it backfired, why not post it again?
As usual the Spinners are ready to post and repost their version of his-story.
Where is the PNP’s Manifesto, the General Elections seems imminent?

[Wardob]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Dr. I too believe in the two party system, I also share your opinion that both parties, not just the JLP (the PNP is just as guilty)as you said it would be

“A good thing to base the party on principles and not personalities irrespective of the influence they personality had on the party.”

But you must admit that both Alexander Bustamante and Norman Manley have played such a roll in the development of our politics and Country that should be expected that their names will forever enshrined in their Party Archives and their achievement (If one believes there is any) will long live in the memories of not only in that of their faithful followers but in the hearts and minds of every Jamaicans.

Taking all of that into consideration, I see nothing wrong with both the JLP and the PNP continued to maintaining and use the name of their founding leaders Alexander Bustamante, and Norman Washington Manley in whatever way they choose to.

“Until that party's anthem, policy and goals is based on principles instead of personality. It will only attract those who are not mentally free enough to look to principles instead of personalities”

Had you made that statement in reference to both parties I would have no problem with it, but to attribute it to only JLP and its supporter’s shows bias from one who goes to length to convince this Board that he is neutral.
And if one take a look at your statement and compare it with both parties it can be seen as more describing and befitting of supporters of the PNP, rather than those of the JLP. To supporters of the PNP Michael not Norman was God, he is the yard stick by which all present and future party leaders are and will be judged, how often we have heard they speak of not his principle but his personality.
From what I know JLP party supporters today are not swearing to “Follow Bustamante till I die” the anthem was change to reflect today’s reality while paying respect to its founder and leader

“I will keep and cause Her Majesty Peace, to be kept and preserve” that’s the sworn oat of our Constabulary Force………….That is more degrading to me as a Jamaican than keeping the name of Bustamante in a party anthem.

“Is the party's intension one of being lead? Or is it expected to be the source and engine of leadership??”……….

As always in the time of needs and where leadership is lacking the peole alway call upon the JLP to provide leadership.

No amount of attempt to change history and to discredit Sir Alexander will work; the truth is on his side. I do not recall having seen your post which attempt to do so, but as Tuff said maybe you should post it again.


One Love…………

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just happen to be aware of a slightly different history of his life.
It is in the archives of a prominent ivy league unoversity. It is not as glowing of Mr bustamante. ever wonder why he as an ordinary citizen could have his letter to th eeditor printed in the Gleaner every day for over thfee years between the time he returned from the USA and becomming involved in the labour movement?
</div></div>

Actually you posted it before to discredit Busta, but it backfired, why not post it again?
As usual the Spinners are ready to post and repost their version of his-story.
Where is the PNP’s Manifesto, the General Elections seems imminent?
</div></div>
I never posted copies of the documant. i alluded to it and refer to the graduate student that produced it, but I did not post it. ..and how did it backfire again??

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dr. I too believe in the two party system, I also share your opinion that both parties, not just the JLP (the PNP is just as guilty)as you said it would be

“A good thing to base the party on principles and not personalities irrespective of the influence they personality had on the party.”

But you must admit that both Alexander Bustamante and Norman Manley have played such a roll in the development of our politics and Country that should be expected that their names will forever enshrined in their Party Archives and their achievement (If one believes there is any) will long live in the memories of not only in that of their faithful followers but in the hearts and minds of every Jamaicans.

Taking all of that into consideration, I see nothing wrong with both the JLP and the PNP continued to maintaining and use the name of their founding leaders Alexander Bustamante, and Norman Washington Manley in whatever way they choose to.

“Until that party's anthem, policy and goals is based on principles instead of personality. It will only attract those who are not mentally free enough to look to principles instead of personalities”

Had you made that statement in reference to both parties I would have no problem with it, but to attribute it to only JLP and its supporter’s shows bias from one who goes to length to convince this Board that he is neutral.
And if one take a look at your statement and compare it with both parties it can be seen as more describing and befitting of supporters of the PNP, rather than those of the JLP. To supporters of the PNP Michael not Norman was God, he is the yard stick by which all present and future party leaders are and will be judged, how often we have heard they speak of not his principle but his personality.
From what I know JLP party supporters today are not swearing to “Follow Bustamante till I die” the anthem was change to reflect today’s reality while paying respect to its founder and leader

“I will keep and cause Her Majesty Peace, to be kept and preserve” that’s the sworn oat of our Constabulary Force………….That is more degrading to me as a Jamaican than keeping the name of Bustamante in a party anthem.

“Is the party's intension one of being lead? Or is it expected to be the source and engine of leadership??”……….

As always in the time of needs and where leadership is lacking the peole alway call upon the JLP to provide leadership.

No amount of attempt to change history and to discredit Sir Alexander will work; the truth is on his side. I do not recall having seen your post which attempt to do so, but as Tuff said maybe you should post it again.


One Love…………
</div></div>
I examined the anthem and policies of the PNP before and found it to be based on principles. Not that they always abided by these principles, buty at least they can be brought before a court of law for such infractions. That is the reason why you don't see me posting about it here.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I never posted copies of the documant. i alluded to it and refer to the graduate student that produced it, but I did not post it. ..and how did it backfire again?? </div></div>

You are a liar, you posted the links to the article.
But you know what, we have come full circle and we have reached the part where it is time for the diversionary tactics by spineless, hypocritical Jamaicans and their supporters.

I am pretty sure if this was a board livicated to Barbados, Trinidad, Haiti or any other country in an election mode we would be have discussions about current events.
Not to dig down into the murky depths to rehash old mindless arguments.

Busta, Menlie-The-Elder & Younger are all dead, the battle is not among their successors.
Where is the Manifesto of the PNP?
What do they intend to run on this trip?

[Wardob]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

“Busta, Menlie-The-Elder & Younger are all dead, the battle is not among their successors”.... Tuff

Very true , and my apologies for continuing the discussion, and straying away from the original Post , but I just had to clear up Dr misleading statement about the JLP Anthem which lead into the discussion of dead leaders.

We know Dr is a master spinner, especially when he have no answer to question such as you pose” WHERE IS THEIR MANIFESTO”

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I never posted copies of the documant. i alluded to it and refer to the graduate student that produced it, but I did not post it. ..and how did it backfire again?? </div></div>

You are a liar, you posted the links to the article.
But you know what, we have come full circle and we have reached the part where it is time for the diversionary tactics by spineless, hypocritical Jamaicans and their supporters.

I am pretty sure if this was a board livicated to Barbados, Trinidad, Haiti or any other country in an election mode we would be have discussions about current events.
Not to dig down into the murky depths to rehash old mindless arguments.

Busta, Menlie-The-Elder & Younger are all dead, the battle is not among their successors.
Where is the Manifesto of the PNP?
What do they intend to run on this trip?
</div></div>Look TUFF GONG, your reputation on here so so shot,that when you say I am a liar,not even you believe it.
You are the one who ttthreaten about you keeping spread sheet on everything you do not agree withthat others post. Where is th eevidence from your spread sheet??
Look who talking about not ot dig up old mess!!
The primary digger the primary 'wallower' in the mess. the one who spend his time on here beating up on people for not wallowing in the old and dirty mess!1
you seem to think that we all have Alzhimers on here.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“Busta, Menlie-The-Elder & Younger are all dead, the battle is not among their successors”.... Tuff

Very true , and my apologies for continuing the discussion, and straying away from the original Post , but I just had to clear up Dr misleading statement about the JLP Anthem which lead into the discussion of dead leaders.

We know Dr is a master spinner, especially when he have no answer to question such as you pose” WHERE IS THEIR MANIFESTO”
</div></div>
I never even discussed the JLP's manifesto,because there was no publication. as a matter of fact i think th ereport stated that it was in process of being completed. I don't see the relevance of either the PNP or JLP's manifesto to my statement. manifestos are temporary policy statements detailing the strategy to be used by the party to achieve a set goal.
Now had yopu asked for a comparason with the actions to manufesto rate between th eparties that may be of importance, although not relevant. what is relevant is whether it is sound principle to base the parties anthem on a personality or principle.
Hey if you think it is,i respect your view,but my view differ. not that it may be important to you.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I never posted copies of the documant. i alluded to it and refer to the graduate student that produced it, but I did not post it. ..and how did it backfire again?? </div></div>

You are a liar, you posted the links to the article.
But you know what, we have come full circle and we have reached the part where it is time for the diversionary tactics by spineless, hypocritical Jamaicans and their supporters.

I am pretty sure if this was a board livicated to Barbados, Trinidad, Haiti or any other country in an election mode we would be have discussions about current events.
Not to dig down into the murky depths to rehash old mindless arguments.

Busta, Menlie-The-Elder & Younger are all dead, the battle is not among their successors.
Where is the Manifesto of the PNP?
What do they intend to run on this trip?
</div></div>Look TUFF GONG, your reputation on here so so shot,that when you say I am a liar,not even you believe it.
You are the one who ttthreaten about you keeping spread sheet on everything you do not agree withthat others post. Where is th eevidence from your spread sheet??
Look who talking about not ot dig up old mess!!
The primary digger the primary 'wallower' in the mess. the one who spend his time on here beating up on people for not wallowing in the old and dirty mess!1
you seem to think that we all have Alzhimers on here. </div></div>

Look idiot there are other things to worry about, certainly not bumbling fools like you. You first brought up the subject of the article on Busta. Fledg or some other member went out and got the post.
You are the one that want to wallow in mud-mud because this post was not about Busta, but it is the only thing you can find to talk about.

How come you zeroed in on that article, commented on it but now you claim never to have posted it?
It might help if you learn to read, comprehend what you read and go back to at least using spell-check half the time. It takes a lot just to sort out the garbage you post to find anything worth commenting on.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

PNP apologist laments the 'cult of personality' he seems to think is prevalent in the JLP and is more drawn to the apparent 'high mindedness' of the PNP's standard of "principle." Note I said "apparent." But the hero worship of the Manleys goes unnoticed. The PNP is all about principle? It's laughable.

The reality is that both principle and personality form the basis of political identity for many within a society. It's not neccesarily a bad thing. Surely, our resident social sciences expert(?) should be aware of this.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PNP apologist laments the 'cult of personality' he seems to think is prevalent in the JLP and is more drawn to the apparent 'high mindedness' of the PNP's standard of "principle." Note I said "apparent." But the hero worship of the Manleys goes unnoticed. The PNP is all about principle? It's laughable.

The reality is that both principle and personality form the basis of political identity for many within a society. It's not neccesarily a bad thing. Surely, our resident social sciences expert(?) should be aware of this. </div></div>

The PNP apologists are only concerned with stories of their cult figures, whom they keep propping up with increasingly incredulous Tall-Tales and Urban Legends, while demeaning the figures on the other side.

[Sinco01]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just happen to be aware of a slightly different history of his life.
It is in the archives of a prominent ivy league unoversity. It is not as glowing of Mr bustamante. ever wonder why he as an ordinary citizen could have his letter to th eeditor printed in the Gleaner every day for over thfee years between the time he returned from the USA and becomming involved in the labour movement?
</div></div>

care to share some with us .. ?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sinco01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just happen to be aware of a slightly different history of his life.
It is in the archives of a prominent ivy league unoversity. It is not as glowing of Mr bustamante. ever wonder why he as an ordinary citizen could have his letter to th eeditor printed in the Gleaner every day for over thfee years between the time he returned from the USA and becomming involved in the labour movement?
</div></div>
i brought it up with one of our long missing posters Fledgist.
it was the object of a PHD thesis done about 3 years ago that I was asked to examine. It is posted on a password secured page. I had sent the URL to the good Professor to examine then. It is not yest published as a result I cant post it.
It support a view that the good gentleman was selected prepared and promoted to take control of the agitating worker's movement. Tools used were the gleaner that he had letters published on a daily basis for the years prior to his involvement as a usurer to the workers on the water front. he then took control of th eexisting union byuse of the pay day loans to members,he joined the PNP, but after he left UP park camp,he disrespected Norman manley his cousin who was always his attorney,and formed the JLP,which just happened to attract all the members of the former Planters party.
Of course all this time the majority of workers/voters were illitearte/semi literate.
the main thing that stood out to me was the author could not find one instance where he ever considered himself equal to the workers,or the workers equal to him. in other words, they needed his leadership to survive.

h eeven found that what was publicised as "kill me and leave my people alone" was actually Shoot me no N!ggrr boy,you tink you can shoot white man".
It was a discovery.
other than the reference to the recorded events,His attitude in the party and politics leads me to believe this was true.
but this is not yet public knowledge,so i don't expect others to support it.
That is why i was saying that they should not place any person as the principle of the party. they need to place ideas.
for those who say some praise the manleys. that does not include me,because ai only support principles. If manley or any peerson's action is principled, i will express it. I don't fall in love with any man. I have not ever pinched anybody on their but much less doing it to michael manley. talking about emotional attachment to politicians.
...and I don't need spread sheet, i have a working brain.
care to share some with us .. ? </div></div>

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

It would be helpful if we could learn the source of this 'new knowledge' about Busta. Also, who is the researcher, and at what university is this archived?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would be helpful if we could learn the source of this 'new knowledge' about Busta. Also, who is the researcher, and at what university is this archived? </div></div>

LOL!