Seaga Reasoning

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get annoyed when postsers use emotions to deal with a simple logical situation.</div></div>
You get annoyed, use emotions and deal with matters based on party loyalty anyway.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #000099">You know how often in my real life job I have to seal with people underestimating my knowledge and skills in my profession??
.. and most of the time I did not even get an opportunity to display my wares,before being so assesed.
Hey at least you have made statement that confirms my view of your knowledge. what you need to do is to show that this is not so.
Until then I stand by my statement.</span></div></div>
<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Here is a great answer to the nonsense quoted above. You might recognize it:</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #660000">If you are so qualified,you certainly did not display it in your statement on th etopic. get of the political platform and discuss the topic.</span></div></div>
<span style='font-size: 11pt'>This one is good as well:</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #660000">Deal with the topic logically,and avoid the personal attacks.
My statemnt is a very general statement, which covers a very broad population. Do you think I think any less of people who are not economically literate?
This is not a put down it is just an observation. </span></div></div>

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

[

Skellion-"Screw up is right Dyoll...as we have seen time and time again. Seaga is a brilliant economist, and Manley was...a far fetched idealist....socialist. Oil and water.


But none of them could have done anything for Jamaica really because of what external forces dictate. "




While I agree very little with you in general Skellion, That last sentence was and is right on the money.

To attribute the dismal state of affairs in Jamaica on any one person or party is to be rearranging the furniture while the house is burning.


The problem as I see it is neo-liberal economics and an electoral system that is run from the top down, (each party tell you who you can vote for) and which is not very democratic.

It is the case in both the political and economic systems that those with the money and power AT THE TOP decide everything that has to do with how people will live.

The solution is grass roots, bottom up democracy and a grass roots bottom up democratic economy.


As said before when the system is designed to rob Peter to pay Paul you can always depend on Paul to want to keep things as they are.


Support of either the JLP or PNP ensures the top down status quo in both the electoral system and the economy and the poor will be continue to be robbed to pay the rich.


Trying to get the twin parties of capitalism to change either the electoral or economic systems so that they fairly represent the poor and working man is like trying to teach a pig to sing: It annoys the pig and wastes your time.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skellion-"Screw up is right Dyoll...as we have seen time and time again. Seaga is a brilliant economist, and Manley was...a far fetched idealist....socialist. Oil and water.


But none of them could have done anything for Jamaica really because of what external forces dictate. " </div></div>

You are talking nonsense read the Eddie Blinds article before you comment.
Time and Time again Menlie refused to take the most sensible route choosing instead the politically expedient route. Which not surprisingly failed over and over again!

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Tuff Gong,

Skellion is correct. Neither Manley nor Seaga were able to solve any of Jamaica's problems.

The problems of Jamaica are not solvable utilising minor changes in the systems that have created the problems in the first place.

Jamaica is a geographic island but not an economic one. It operates in the same world as every other country and is subject to the same rules.

Trickle-down economics do not work in the Third World no matter how you tweak them. All you will get are minor and temporary improvements which for the sake of argument I will grant you that Mr.Seaga accomplished. Then it was back downhill.

Even had Mr Seaga been voted in again there is no way he could have kept any sort of economic improvement going utilising trickle-down economics. He had to borrow heavily to do what he did, the effects were temporary and in the end Jamaica wound up owing more money.

It was a net loss just as it is and was in the rest of the Third World.

It will take revolutionary change to turn Jamaica around; to make it the better place it once was and could be again.

Neither the PNP nor the JLP are up to it and they have demonstrated that amply over the past 25 years.

Slightly off subject but when can we expect a new JLP manifesto?

Anyone?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Gong,

Skellion is correct. Neither Manley nor Seaga were able to solve any of Jamaica's problems.</div></div>

Did she say that?
Where?

Which world leader has solved any of his/her country's problems?

You name one?

I have a few in mind, but go ahead make our day on this board!

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Skellion
"But none of them could have done anything for Jamaica really because of what external forces dictate. "

Tuff Going,

Does not the quote above say that because of things happening outside the control of the PNP nor the JLP that neither Seaga nor Manley had a chance of changing things?


Fidel Castro and the Cuban Revolution solved the problems of poverty, unemployment, crime, illiteracy, debt, health which are all the things that are serious problems in Jamaica.


Hugo Chavez is in the process of curing illiteracy, bringing down the immense poverty rate, vastly improving on the lack of healthcare among the poor in a country where this had never been done. In addition Venezuela is helping countries like Argentina and Ecuador pay off their debts with low interest no-conditions loans.

Hope this makes your day.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelly_n_Belly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Screw up is right Dyoll...as we have seen time and time again. Seaga is a brilliant economist, and Manley was...a far fetched idealist....socialist. Oil and water. But none of them could have done anything for Jamaica really because of what external forces dictate. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skellion
"But none of them could have done anything for Jamaica really because of what external forces dictate. "

Tuff Going,

Does not the quote above say that because of things happening outside the control of the PNP nor the JLP that neither Seaga nor Manley had a chance of changing things?</div></div>

Okay I found the quote.
She is incorrect. Seaga or his polices to be more exact
turned the economy destroy by Menlie's polices around.
<ul>[*]those polices created over 60 thousand jobs in the garment industry which has since been blown away by the polices of Menlie/Patterson and Portia. Never to be replaced by anything close to those number.[*]those polices returned the Economy to a positive growth in numbers not seen since then.[*]those polices returned the Budget to positive surplus not seen since then.[/list]
Nothing outside of Jamaica can explain the destruction of the Jamaican economy under Michael Menlie.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which world leader has solved any of his/her country's problems?

You name one?

I have a few in mind, but go ahead make our day on this board! </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fidel Castro and the Cuban Revolution solved the problems of poverty, unemployment, crime, illiteracy, debt, health which are all the things that are serious problems in Jamaica.

Hugo Chavez is in the process of curing illiteracy, bringing down the immense poverty rate, vastly improving on the lack of healthcare among the poor in a country where this had never been done. In addition Venezuela is helping countries like Argentina and Ecuador pay off their debts with low interest no-conditions loans.

Hope this makes your day. </div></div>

Johnny Cakes just a little question to plumb the depths of your dishonesty and to show you for what you really are.
A very dishonest poster that will go to any low to make your foolish points.

You have not made anybody's day just paraded yourself for what you really are.
Just like another member here who destroyed all of Jamaica’s Manufacturing output to date, to make a stupid point, you have now reduced even the most benign achievements of Menlie and Eddie and by extension of all previous Governments of Jamaica to nil to what end.

[julie*mango]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelly_n_Belly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Screw up is right Dyoll...as we have seen time and time again. Seaga is a brilliant economist, and Manley was...a far fetched idealist....socialist. Oil and water. But none of them could have done anything for Jamaica really because of what external forces dictate. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skellion
"But none of them could have done anything for Jamaica really because of what external forces dictate. "

Tuff Going,

Does not the quote above say that because of things happening outside the control of the PNP nor the JLP that neither Seaga nor Manley had a chance of changing things?</div></div>

Okay I found the quote.
She is incorrect. Seaga or his polices to be more exact
turned the economy destroy by Menlie's polices around.
<ul>[*]those polices created over 60 thousand jobs in the garment industry which has since been blown away by the polices of Menlie/Patterson and Portia. Never to be replaced by anything close to those number.[*]those polices returned the Economy to a positive growth in numbers not seen since then.[*]those polices returned the Budget to positive surplus not seen since then.[/list]
Nothing outside of Jamaica can explain the destruction of the Jamaican economy under Michael Menlie.



</div></div>

TG, if you are going to talk about Seaga's gold stars you need to talk about the things PNP did for the island. The infrastructure has grown since they came into power although Jamaica is drowning in debt because of the overspending and the increased dependence on imports.

Anyway...it is a matter of fact not opinion that regardless of whatever small growth Jamaica may have made under Seaga's policy's there is a vacuum that has been left unfilled by the British that the US has been trying to fill since Manley came into power. And since that is the case, there is no hope for Jamaica or other developing nations.


Disagree if you want to but please don't chew my head off.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelly_n_Belly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Disagree if you want to but please don't chew my head off. </div></div>
Sister I did disagree with your statement but I never tried to chew your head off.... well a little but after seeing what you did to that guy you are hauling around.... mi change mi mine!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelly_n_Belly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TG, if you are going to talk about Seaga's gold stars you need to talk about the things PNP did for the island. The infrastructure has grown since they came into power although Jamaica is drowning in debt because of the overspending and the increased dependence on imports.</div></div>

I fear you are misrepresenting me.

I have no wish to talk about Seaga's Gold Stars. I have also no wish to dwell on Menlie's failings.
If you look in all these posts the, it is the Menlie-as-a-god-on-earth-Worshippers who 9 times out of 10 want to beat other posters over the mantle with their version of events, replete with various postings from the conspricy-theroy depot.

Now if they set the rules I have no problems following them, all I ask is that we try to stick as close as possible to the facts, use information that is checkable and respect others who have actually witnessed the unfolding events first hand.

So on that note I don't want any drug crazed foreigner, high on Looney-Left ill-logic to cum preach anything bout the 70s/80s/90s to me, it is simple as that.

According to JC (not short for Jesus Christ, although he no doubt thinks so), neither the PNP under Menlie nor the JLP under Eddie Blinds did not fix any of Jamaica's problems. He has been saying that for months. It is all here in black and white...a nuh me seh so!

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

Tuff Going,

You did not dispute anything I posted about Cuba.

You just remain mired in Jamaica's failed political and economic systems struggling in vain to find something good to say about them.

Edward Seaga did not perform any economic miracles. His years in office produced the moderate and temporary improvements that any Third World neo-colonial country's economy would show given enough money to goose that economy.

Neither Seaga nor Jesus Christ himself could feed the multitudes given the nature of Jamaica's economy and Third World conditions in general.

The reason: capitalism does not work in the Third World. Neo-liberal economics has not led any poor Third World country out of a bad situation.

It does not work because it cannot work. And, no socialism will not solve every problem and will probably create some new ones but as shown in Cuba socialism can and does eliminate a great many of the problems that Cuba had and which Jamaica still has such as illiteracy, lack of sufficient medical care, joblessness, despair.

The problems are clear. The cause of the problems is clear. The solution is clear.
But first you have to open your eyes and your mind.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Going,

You did not dispute anything I posted about Cuba.</div></div>

What was there to dispute?

This argument was not about Cuba. You said Menlie and Eddie did not solve any of Jamaica's problems whilst in office.
This was not the first time you made that claim.

So what does Cuba have to do with this?
You were being deceptive and lied to make some insignificant point that is plain and simple.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelly_n_Belly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Disagree if you want to but please don't chew my head off. </div></div>
Sister I did disagree with your statement but I never tried to chew your head off.... well a little but after seeing what you did to that guy you are hauling around.... mi change mi mine!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skelly_n_Belly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">TG, if you are going to talk about Seaga's gold stars you need to talk about the things PNP did for the island. The infrastructure has grown since they came into power although Jamaica is drowning in debt because of the overspending and the increased dependence on imports.</div></div>

I fear you are misrepresenting me.

I have no wish to talk about Seaga's Gold Stars. I have also no wish to dwell on Menlie's failings.
If you look in all these posts the, it is the Menlie-as-a-god-on-earth-Worshippers who 9 times out of 10 want to beat other posters over the mantle with their version of events, replete with various postings from the conspricy-theroy depot.

Now if they set the rules I have no problems following them, all I ask is that we try to stick as close as possible to the facts, use information that is checkable and respect others who have actually witnessed the unfolding events first hand.

So on that note I don't want any drug crazed foreigner, high on Looney-Left ill-logic to cum preach anything bout the 70s/80s/90s to me, it is simple as that.

According to JC (not short for Jesus Christ, although he no doubt thinks so), neither the PNP under Menlie nor the JLP under Eddie Blinds did not fix any of Jamaica's problems. He has been saying that for months. It is all here in black and white...a nuh me seh so!

</div></div>
Your actions on these boards have spoken so loud that I can't hear what this post is saying... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/704555_dwl.gif[/img]
You ,did you say you don't heap praise on Mr seaga at every oppotunity??

[johnnycakes]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Going,

You did not dispute anything I posted about Cuba.</div></div>

What was there to dispute?

This argument was not about Cuba. You said Menlie and Eddie did not solve any of Jamaica's problems whilst in office.
This was not the first time you made that claim.

So what does Cuba have to do with this?
You were being deceptive and lied to make some insignificant point that is plain and simple.

</div></div>


Manley and Seaga did not solve any of Jamaica's problems as they both had to work within political and economic structures that by their very nature prevent any such solution. They are the creators and the perpetuators of the problems that beset Jamaica.

"What does Cuba have to do with any of this?", you ask?

Your memory seems to be failing. You asked what country had solved problems similar to Jamaica's or some such , did you not or do I have to copy and paste what you said?

Are you by any chance related to the Archie who writes on the "International" page?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Seaga Reasoning

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your actions on these boards have spoken so loud that I can't hear what this post is saying... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/704555_dwl.gif[/img]
You ,did you say you don't heap praise on Mr seaga at every oppotunity?? </div></div>I don't.
I merely reply to debunk the Manlie-Freaks version.

If you can read and comprehend follow any post on this board that mention Eddie Blinds and see if I have ever derailed or attempt to derail any posts by posting reams of info about Eddie whether in the positive or negative light.

You same one was here when I was tufted off the board for criticizing Bruce Golding and the JLP, you same one was here when I was banned for criticizing Menlie.
You was here when I was accused of been a Communist.

Please do anything but don't tell a lie on me, because Dr. if you start the nastiness, I certainly will be adding to it and don't look to me to end it...just be careful.