Is this possible in Jamaica?

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only thing to reduce crime in Jamaica to enshrine the right to the use of fire arms by every citizen.
otherwise </div></div>

IMO, bearing arms is a privilege and not a right.

I'm more inclined to agree with Monk on this one. The moral, cultural and socio-economic underpinings of criminality have to be addressed. We can have each person armed: imagine a gun-totting society with people walking around with guns in their waists, or slinging over their shoulders, maybe even a machine gun on top of their SUV or in the back of their pick-up truck. Shoulder-held rocket launchers, perhaps?

Ok, this is hyperbole. But it seems to me that if people are bent on killing each other, they will find ways to kill each other anyway. Yes, they will 'out-gun' each other.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only thing to reduce crime in Jamaica to enshrine the right to the use of fire arms by every citizen.
otherwise </div></div>

IMO, bearing arms is a privilege and not a right.

I'm more inclined to agree with Monk on this one. The moral, cultural and socio-economic underpinings of criminality have to be addressed. We can have each person armed: imagine a gun-totting society with people walking around with guns in their waists, or slinging over their shoulders, maybe even a machine gun on top of their SUV or in the back of their pick-up truck. Shoulder-held rocket launchers, perhaps?

Ok, this is hyperbole. But it seems to me that if people are bent on killing each other, they will find ways to kill each other anyway. Yes, they will 'out-gun' each other. </div></div>

I agree with you up to the point of saying if folks are bent on killing each other...etc

We have to separate fact from fiction
<ul>[*]the fact is people are getting killed in Jamaica over 15000 since the last 18 years.[*]the fact is the GOJ cannot protect Jamaicans as seen from the above figures.[*]the fact is GOJ and its security apparatus cannot investigate crime efficiently as seen from the Woolmer debacle[*]the fact is the Justice system is in shambles where the GOJ cannot even afford to pay for room and board of its traveling Officers, at least one case made the news recently.
Add to that the backlog in all the courts, etc[*]the fact is the GOJ have virtually disarmed the citizens. Jamaica has one of the strictest laws on acquiring and keeping weapons of any kind, including pepper spray.[/list]
All of the above has not reduced crime, in fact my argument is that it has encouraged crime, because the risk of the criminal endeavor is virtually nil whilst the risk to joe and jane Jamaica has increased exponentially.

To balance the books or tilt it in favour of the law abiding Jamaicans while he or she waits for the culture to change and the social intervention to kick in. I think the answer is to increase the risks to the law-breaker, hence arm those who wish to bear arms legally.

[rudemonk]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

most people have a weapon- legally obtained or otherwise. there is a practical reality and a book reality. if legally procuring guns is easier and this makes people's book reality more comforting then it is a hollow comfort and fails to adress the actual problem- that people are committing record numbers of increasingly violent crime.

As the good Dr stated, people are presently armed yet we can note that crime has not abated, criminals surely know they are confronting people who are armed, wratchet or gun, and are not deterred- some even know before hand their mark is firearmed- they plan accordingly and so grow more and more brazen or just make sure they get the drop.

Let's not waste time with bandaids for machine gun wounds. There are social processes which could be put into place that can reverse these trends- but easy access to guns is something that would- to my mind- just make it a lot easier for criminals to gain access to legal guns, like it used to be. Any bad man could work the corrupted system at their pleasure and did.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">most people have a weapon- legally obtained or otherwise. there is a practical reality and a book reality. if legally procuring guns is easier and this makes people's book reality more comforting then it is a hollow comfort and fails to adress the actual problem- that people are committing record numbers of increasingly violent crime.

As the good Dr stated, people are presently armed yet we can note that crime has not abated, criminals surely know they are confronting people who are armed, wratchet or gun, and are not deterred- some even know before hand their mark is firearmed- they plan accordingly and so grow more and more brazen or just make sure they get the drop.

Let's not waste time with bandaids for machine gun wounds. There are social processes which could be put into place that can reverse these trends- but easy access to guns is something that would- to my mind- just make it a lot easier for criminals to gain access to legal guns, like it used to be. Any bad man could work the corrupted system at their pleasure and did.
</div></div>
The only band aid beibg suggested is the one of continuing to keep the majority of jamaican legally unarmed.
It is afact that in th aREAS WHERE THE MAJORITY OF residents have legal fire arms. the level of fire arm violence is nonexistent.
It is also a fact that the legal fire arms are not taken from owners in areas where there is a high number of fire arms owners.
it usually happens where they are in th eminority.
As a result the present policy does encourage the disarming of legal owners and creating a supply of illegal weapons to the criminals.
the only people who do not want to see legal fire arms liberalized in the country are those who are afraid of guns and those who cannot acceppt that armed black civilians can be a source of security just as armed white civilians.
since the majority of the white residents have legal fire arms,while very few black civilians does.

[rudemonk]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It is afact that in th aREAS WHERE THE MAJORITY OF residents have legal fire arms. the level of fire arm violence is nonexisten
</div></div>

from a personal perspective, I can contest that "fact."

Without thinking too long I know of two people at least who carried legal firearms and yet were slain despite the fact. Robbed and slain.

Dr, it seems you are backsliding away from some of your earlier statements made when addressing my presumed naivet'e?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It is afact that in th aREAS WHERE THE MAJORITY OF residents have legal fire arms. the level of fire arm violence is nonexisten
</div></div>

from a personal perspective, I can contest that "fact."

Without thinking too long I know of two people at least who carried legal firearms and yet were slain despite the fact. Robbed and slain.

Dr, it seems you are backsliding away from some of your earlier statements made when addressing my presumed naivet'e?
</div></div>
The people that you know were noit robbed of their fire arms in an area where the majority owned and posess fire arms.
I actually keep a tally on these reports.
i know what i am talking abouty . i've been studying this for more than 20 years.

[rudemonk]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The people that you know were noit robbed of their fire arms in an area where the majority owned and posess fire arms.
I actually keep a tally on these reports.
i know what i am talking abouty . i've been studying this for more than 20 years. </div></div>

Pardon me Dr., I did not mention anywhere what the object of the robbery was- certainly I am not suggetsing they were robbed for their guns. They were robbed because of their money, one was simply slain for retribution of a slight and robbed as an afterthought.

But are you a Dr of parapsychology then? Mind reading? Because I did not mention any names, yet you know why and how and where they were robbed and murdered...

That my friend is quite impressive, except that you are getting some signals crossed, perhaps adjust the aluminum antennae a bit to the right or left as you scan my mind- because they had crimes committed upon them DESPITE their being armed, DESPITE everyone knowing they were armed and carrying, and still slain without either of them firing off a single round in their own defense, in a location where pretty much any important business man is known to carry...

The crimes committed against them was not for their guns, sir.

If you have been studying this subject for 20 years and your solution is to get more guns on the street- which previously you have said are already there- then I'm sure you know by now that many things go under reported or are reported "differently" shall we say...

In any case, it is a waste of time to stem the flow of violence through violent means.

Better to spend such intellectual capital on developing opportunity and potential for advancement and protection against systemic extortion that is creating the problems of crime and murderation.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Is this possible in Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The people that you know were noit robbed of their fire arms in an area where the majority owned and posess fire arms.
I actually keep a tally on these reports.
i know what i am talking abouty . i've been studying this for more than 20 years. </div></div>

Pardon me Dr., I did not mention anywhere what the object of the robbery was- certainly I am not suggetsing they were robbed for their guns. They were robbed because of their money, one was simply slain for retribution of a slight and robbed as an afterthought.

But are you a Dr of parapsychology then? Mind reading? Because I did not mention any names, yet you know why and how and where they were robbed and murdered...

That my friend is quite impressive, except that you are getting some signals crossed, perhaps adjust the aluminum antennae a bit to the right or left as you scan my mind- because they had crimes committed upon them DESPITE their being armed, DESPITE everyone knowing they were armed and carrying, and still slain without either of them firing off a single round in their own defense, in a location where pretty much any important business man is known to carry...

The crimes committed against them was not for their guns, sir.

If you have been studying this subject for 20 years and your solution is to get more guns on the street- which previously you have said are already there- then I'm sure you know by now that many things go under reported or are reported "differently" shall we say...

In any case, it is a waste of time to stem the flow of violence through violent means.

Better to spend such intellectual capital on developing opportunity and potential for advancement and protection against systemic extortion that is creating the problems of crime and murderation. </div></div>
Hey Monk,no neeed for the games.. it does not work very well in these media.
the fact that th eevidence is recorded for instant revision does not lend to the the act of posting statements that you create and alluding them to me saying so.
No where did I say that their was a lot of legal fire arms that I am supporting. The legal fire arms are in the hands of the whites and near whites. while the sector that is most capable of reducing the fire arms violence are the majority blacks
It is not the asme as you saying "putting more fire arms on the streets".
I am not suggesting putting any weapons on any streets. I am suggesting that every law abiding jamaican citizen be afforded the opportunity to have a legally procured fire arms to support order in th ecountry.
It is as simple as the country will not be able to support the size police force at the income levels to gurantee a safe and relatively violence free country.
the tax base is just not there.
Only people who take the Jamaican citizenry for a bunch of fools,fools themselves would suggest that it is possible to disarm the people with illegal weapons.
It cannmot be done.
there will always be new sources of arms as long as th edemand for them are there.
The demand for the illegal weapons are there and will always be there as long as the use an illegal weaoon is seen as reliable source of wealth.
At present any child old enough to fire a weapon is capable of taking the hard earned property of any unharmed citizen.
this will be so until citizens are armed legally or illegally.
the fact is that Jamaicans are not as docile as many think.
If they ever decide that the government does not have their intrest at heart. nothing will stop them from arming themselves.
Irrespective of the consequencies.
those who know the history of jamaica know's it well.
Remember it was jamaicans that rioted in the military work campin florida during the the second world war.
..and remember that they rioted in th epresence of the armed soldiers. yes many were mowed down,but they still refused to give in,until they got what they wanted.
It is the same people you are associating with every time you visit.
i remember the case with the landholder in Negril,that was killed after I warned them that that would be the case.
they blew me off,because he had bullet proof vest.
It happened,and no one went down for it.
More jamaicans need to have legal weapons to reclaim the peace and tranqulity of the jamaica of past times... much mre.