Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines und

[Q3210]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines und

Jamaica has the most name brand apparel, cell phones and motor cars when the GDP was at its lowest.
Imagine the potential for equal opportunity with a higher GDP today, 2007.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines und

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jamaica has the most name brand apparel, cell phones and motor cars when the GDP was at its lowest.
Imagine the potential for equal opportunity with a higher GDP today, 2007. </div></div>
We can only imagine this. Since so far I have seen no policy on the part of either parties to set a program in place to achieve healthy economic growth.
Like the people who take their earnings and spend on frivolous expenses, the country seem to be at risk to do the same even if it achieve economic growth. Healthy economic growth have to be actively cultivated. It cannot be left to the wishes of the merchant class. They represent themselves, against all others. They are not enlightened to the necessity of harmonious economic growth That reduce the disparities and at the same time reduce the social tension that result from the present state.

[jah_yout]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines und

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mackone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really, im so sick and tired of hearing the camp of people
whos argument for keeping PNP or not voting OUT the PNP, boy yuh know mi dont know how a JLP government would work, cuz PNP been in power for 18 years.

Grow a brain.

Firstly the governing party PNP has been in power for over 18 years, the opposition party JLP has not, what do honestly expect a party thats not in power to do, all it can do.... is well oppose, it cant make changes, it cannot tell the government dont do that, why... cuz they are not in power...until someone gives them power.


Secondly, according to some of the logic you people use, to use an analogy to best describe my point, if you have a pefectly working car and bring it to a mechanic to modified, and after driving it parts start coming off...im sure you guys would be the first to take it back to same mechanic, time and time again cuz well you used to him,no matter if he is costing you, Rather than getting a new one,let alone asking for a refund.

Thirdly, Jamaica's National Carrier, Air Jamaica has debts of $US 900million approaching a billion dollars, if any of you have ever flown on airjamaica, you would realise what a crackpot service airjamaica has become.
Are you telling me, rather than getting rid of the national airline and use that money which is used to service that $US 900million debt, for other projects like infrastructure, and alleviating our ever increasing National Debt. (60 cents to every dollar to service our debt)


Would anyone of you in the indecisive camp, would like to explain to me why jamaica out of a list of 10 carribean countries is at the bottom in terms of GDP/PPP. (thats average salary)and has the among the highest inflation with either negative or 1% growth rates for the past 18 years.

Would any of you also like to tell me, why i should not vote out a government who upon coming to power in the 1990's instituted GCT and raised it from 12 to 15 to 16.5%.
while introducing car importation duties in excess of 100%.*which you also have to pay duty on*, while also relaxing the foreign exchange system which allowed our currency to go from 1usd to 5 ja to 1 to 60 within a matter of 10 to 15 years.
While other caribbean countries, such a barbados,st kitts and nevis,st luci, antigua, have not gone our way yet seem to be ahead of us economically.


For you people, who say you u dont see what difference JLP will make. Your missing the point.
If you dont like the way how something is being run, and you have a another choice. YOU CAN STATE YOUR DISAPPROVAL ABOUT HOW THE COUNTRY IS BEING RUN BY THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION BY VOTING THEM OUT, not by *****ing about it and staying home on election day and then *****ing about it after. that is my point.

By having this mentally as a people, future governments will be less likely to screw around with their populace if they know that once they mess up they will be kicked out and replaced.

and yes,if the JLP messes up VOTE THEM OUT TOO.











</div></div>


& i'm sick & tired of hearing people like you who think this endless jlp/pnp bickering is something good...
i don't care if they vote the jlp in...let them do it...
these guys are merely holdover planters from colonialism;
i don't trust these guys (political parties)whose legacy is killing and murder to get their party in power...
why must dvelopment of the country be an adversarial agreement...this or that, him or me...
they are so obvious that it is their own enrichment they are after & not the livity of the little man...
bottom line, j-a needs real changes which will involve sacrifice on EVERYONE's part...
i hope the jlp does win if it will improve the country; my point is that I essentially have not heard anything new…just more fancy speeches, but no one keeping it real….i guess politicians have to do what they have to do to win…
It's a joke…how can a country build when expatriots are afraid to come home & invest in the country due to a perception of lawlessness & a high crime (esp. murder) rate…
The perception that everyone wants a handout & everyone wants material goods & to live like the u.s.a; nuff brain drain a gwaan...
a joke…would be funny if it wasn't so sad…

they're running politics like J-A IS THE U.S. WHICH IT IS NOT...

[Morpheous]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'm not holding my breath that jamaica will change FUNDAMENTALLY if the jlp takes over...
haven't the pnp & jlp been going at it for years? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif[/img] </div></div>
Fi real and both made a bunch a promise to fools. We still innah di same rut; a matter a fak it get wuss. Kentucky and burger king, with the place flooded with foreign goods don't mean jamaica is doing better, it means MORE money is being taken out of jamaica and the country getting into more debt!

I am not a communists as a I strongly believe in democracy but I do wonder if capitalism has made jamaica better or worse?

[Q3210]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

Cant help but notice the difference of minds where Mike Manley always stressed on the `struggle` and now Golding with this 100% opposite optimistic vision.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

More4us,
Communism is a theoretical social form that is based on everyone willingly doing what they need to do to make the economy and the human society what it should be.

It is not political. The countries like the U.S.S.R, China, DRK, Vietnam, that called themselves communist are nothing at all like what Marx described but are wild dictatorial distortions of what is supposed to be entirely democratic and economically egalitarian.

That said I do get your point.
Rather than look to these dinosaurs, it would be better to look at what Cuba has done both economically in providing for all its citizens and electorally in its very democratic and innovative electoral system.

Also take a good look at what Venezuela is doing for its poor and the side-by-side very democratic grassroots political organizations it is setting up.

There are alternatives to what is driving Jamaica into the ground.
The cures are democracy both in the electoral field and the economic sphere.

You CAN have a more equitable distribution of the good and services needed by all of Jamaica's people but you first need a more democratic electoral form to allow the people's voice and will to be expressed.

As I've said before when you have all your candidates presented to you by the two parties, they have been selected by the two parties based on the act that these candidates will keep things as they are for the benefit of those who have always benefited from the way things have been.

It will not be until the electorate without the participation of any party, chooses and elects their representatives that the will of the people will be enforced.
Further you must add Cuban-style accountability sessions in which your elected representative must stand before the asembled electorate and account for what they have done or not done in according to the wishes of those who have elected them.
The electorate MUST have the ability at these sessions to toss out their representative if (s)he does not do a good job.

What Jamaica (ands the U.S.) has is NOT democracy -rule by the people-.
What you have is rule by the two parties and the monied and powerful people who tell them what to do.
They are telling them to keep capitalism and keep Jamaica as it is.

Take a good look at how far Cuba has come in the same 47 years Jamaica has been independent and if Cuba has been made a no-no by the propaganda we have all been fed, take a good look at what Venezuela is doing in the economic and electoral areas.


There are alternatives to the non-democratic form of economy that exists in Jamaica and there are real democratic alternatives to the totalitarian "democracy' that is Jamaica's electoral/political system.

There are plenty of things now in practice in other poor countries right here in this hemisphere to consider.

Jamaicans can make up economic and political systems that seem right for them but as is evident to you and many more, change must come and it won't come, cannot come from the PNP nor the JLP.

They are status quo parties.

Anyone who says different is basing their belief on hope and not history.

With the JLP and the PNP, the past is prologue.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant help but notice the difference of minds where Mike Manley always stressed on the `struggle` and now Golding with this 100% opposite optimistic vision. </div></div>
So optimism which is merely a thought process,is superior action to struggling to achieve to achieve is eh?
If Jamaicans would put as much of their energies in wealth building as they do in supporting their political tribe the country would not be in such a predicament.

[Wahalla]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

Actuially communism by marx is a post capitalist state of social development where by the means of productions was held by common ownership and leadership was through a cadre of commited cadres who subscribed to a single unit of poltical discourse...

Lenin who was an orthodox western marxist over through by subterfudge a social uprising by the workers... ( he was in competion with the various other left wing angnst driven for the soul of the revolution) He won by out manuverign them and decraling the formation of the first communist state... Tge moment he gained he sort power by manuevering this orginal communist became a poltician... Prior to lenin the first acknowledge attempt at a communist goverment was the short lived paris commune....Lenins interpretation which is the classical model of communist was developed post his death to eulpgise him. The man was a insecure butcher.... Each succedign revolutionary struggle in China, Korea threw up a reintrepration of Marx.. ie Maoism, Junche. .Other subdivions of marx intrpretation by Trotsky, the fella in CAR, Menghistu. Each like a fundamentalist preacher tells every one they are the true interpertes of Marx and their interpretation and tehri interpretation only is the true communism....Marx is to communism what Christ is to Fundamentalist Christianity.. He did write ratehr inmpretrable, intractable, heart stopping boring crap with excedding complications that no one cam recall tem minutes after reading. Personally I find quantum mechanics more intereting.. But then I am told I study other communist parties besides Fidels...

[Wahalla]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

Actuially communism by marx is a post capitalist state of social development where by the means of productions was held by common ownership and leadership was through a cadre of commited cadres who subscribed to a single unit of poltical discourse...

Lenin who was an orthodox western marxist over through by subterfudge a social uprising by the workers... ( he was in competion with the various other left wing angnst driven for the soul of the revolution) He won by out manuverign them and decraling the formation of the first communist state... Tge moment he gained he sort power by manuevering this orginal communist became a poltician... Prior to lenin the first acknowledge attempt at a communist goverment was the short lived paris commune....However the Digger philosphy a proto-anarchism may be arguably the first true poltical form of Kamunsism.. First articulated by Winstanley I beleive.. And still the most simplistic....

Lenins interpretation which is the classical model of communist was developed post his death to eulpgise him. The man was a insecure butcher a consumate poltician ... Each succedign revolutionary struggle in China, Korea threw up a reintrepration of Marx.. ie Maoism, Junche. .Other subdivions ie interpretation of marx intrpretation include those by Trotsky, Ho Chi Minh, the fella in CAR, Menghistu. Then there are those anarchist who beleive all forms of state is immoral and their is a need for no state.. Gotta love those Italians at the first internation and Burimin....

Each like a fundamentalist preacher tells every one they are the true interpertes of Marx and their interpretation and tehri interpretation only is the true communism....Marx is to communism what Christ is to Fundamentalist Christianity.. He did write ratehr inmpretrable, intractable, heart stopping boring crap with excedding complications that no one cam recall tem minutes after reading. Personally I find quantum mechanics more intereting.. But then I am told I study other communist parties besides Fidels..

So wjem a fundamentalist tells you they have the true font of communism it usually means they have disconnected theri left and right frontal cortex and begin mouthing truism. This [censored] is a complex and filled with Chalatans as Christians. Alway remeer Fidel was an alter boy, Stalin a acyolte.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

Communism with a capital 'C" refers to what existed in the Soviet Union and what exists today in the DRK, China, Vietnam.
It bears little resemblance to the definition of communism with a small "c".
In essence , (small "c") communism is the ownership and distribution of the means of production of goods and services by and for the people and the distribution thereof decided by the people.
This presupposes an advanced social state of the people and is not at this point in time possible due to the corruption caused by and enforced by capitalist states.

The atavistic (backward) selfishness and cruelty imposed by capitalism would have to be eliminated by developing a socialist economy and a democratic political form which would empower rather than eliminate the will of the people as does the totalitarian capitalism under which most of us exist.

Small "c" communism is a theoretical state in which there is no government involvement and it can be fairly equated with the Chomsky version of anarchy; a Utopian society in which each person knows and fulfills his/her responsibilities and in which each person receives from that society the things required for a good and fulfilling life.

Socialism is the necessary interim state between capitalism and communism in an evolutionary state.

What existed in the Soviet Union, what exists in China, the DRK etc are various perversions of socialism without equitable distribution and without the requisite democratic form.
These are nothing like what Marx envisioned but are perhaps natural events in a new and evolving economic and social form that is passing through heretofore authoritarian cultures..

At present Cuba alone represents what can be considered that interim state but is besieged by a violent and implacable capitalist enemy in the United States.

Jamaica has yet to develop any solid base for successful capitalism. It is poor and heavily in debt with no sign of working itself out of its economic quagmire.

In Jamaica as elsewhere in most of the Third World, there is enough to go around. It is a rich country in many respects but with such a huge proportion of its wealth going to the banks in the First World and with its piddling growth rate, it has little chance to ever succeed.

Golding is correct and at the same time as wrong as wrong can be but he is an aspiring politician and cannot speak the truth and get elected since it is more than evident that Jamaicans would rather deal with the fantasy that one or the other of the two parties that got Jamaica into the mess it is in can get Jamaica out of that mess than deal with the hard truth.

The hard truth: neither the JLP nor the PNP for all their campaign rhetoric and dance party rallies and high-sounding platitudes has any means of changing things.

They know it as well as I but they won't, can't tell the Jamaican people who are still waiting for Santa Claus or Jesus to fix things.

It's time to grow up.

The other option is to follow what Walhalla prescribes for solving Jamaica's problems and still keep the wonderful capitalist economy that has every Jamaican living so well: EFFECTIVE taxation of the rich.

Stop laughing.

He's serious.

Really.

C'mon stop that laughing!

[Wahalla]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

Ah perversion of Marx.. Good description of what they have in Cuba, North Korea,

No I dont simply advocate taxing the rich, I advocate taxing every one according to their income.. You advocate redistributing the wealth without actually creating the wealth...

Currently examine the tax base of Jamaica and you would note that too high a proportion of the GDP goes under reported as wealth is generated in a formalised grey economy without being taxed.. How find out the amoutn paid on property tax.. How many buisness pay yheir full amount of tax..... What did the goverment do the GCT to attempt this..

I have heard numbers of underpayment of tax receipts from as little as 30 % to as much as 70%.. So al lthose laughing at illogical Wahalla, the uneducated, Which one of you who has a family memver running a jerk stand, a small shop, a robot, who has a tradesman, a small farmer, how bout a lawyer a dentist, who owns a factory, who has a parent who owns land and house , get a basic calculation of their actual income vs what they pay tax at.... Check rural Jamaica note the state of disrepair of the infrastructure.. then not the innumable criss house that have been built over the recent decades.. The tax base is those in employhmet... Every one knows what needs to be fixed, goverment should spend money here or there.... Where should the money come from ???? We have borrowed our way with up to 15% returns on paper.. We need lower tax to encorage buisness and wealth generation and more effective collection. Laugh....

Jamaica had a base forindusrualisation.. Examine our history and there was a industralisation during WWII as import replacement...Surprisingly our industrial base continued to grow. Through the sixtes... up 73-74 there was stead growth, there was also the need to readjust the economy in order to redistribute the wealth. It was attempted in my opnion in an impractical manner.. Without retaining the generators of wealth. The problem was non black people were the generators of wealth, and the train classed entrapnuers left the country.. including too many potential black people...

You offer communism ???? And Communism is a theory fine... And the practical attempts to impose of Kamunism is Stalin, Kim ill Sung, the failed states of the eastern block, the suppression of Hungary and Glorious Cuba ..... The Cubans are admitting their system is falling apart with an inability to even provide people with eggs.. Marx described his idea of communism as a Dictatorship of the politeriate.. Well good to know the general sectratary of th Cuban communist party was a worker.. a plantation owner.

Marxist definitions of class has long blurred. His theory was based on the 18th and 19th century.. Not the 21st. All societies have evolved..

The "evil" corporation orporations now being owned by pension funds, insurance and investment trusts.. And who owns the these funds..????? Any one here owns pesnion funds. a 401K as they call it in the US . You own peices of the coroporation quoted on the FTSE, the nekei, the DAx, the chicago futures market, the Mumbai market ... Fortune 500 companies on literally every contienet...Course Cakes gets his pension from the goverment... And the goverment gets in the pension how again ?????

Now anyone else laughing continue.... Any one laughers think for a moment???? You want JC vision of a future where a single party takes control of your economy and runs it with soviet or Cuban efficenecy ???

/tje choice is not the simple stark offer by this expert in theortical poveryt and communism.. It is not Cuba and starvation.. I have faith in Jamaicans to think our way out and develop our resources.. The moment outside experts decides our strategy has been demonstrated as ineffective.... Not like a man who tells you you are laughing who questions our ability to produce original solutions to our own issues, and we should accept a visions of the son abd grandson of plantation owner

So any one laughing note you are being told to laugh at a Jamaican by an American...You are being told to laugh at a man with melanain by a man without melanin, you are being asked to laugh at a man who came out of poverty, by a man who never experienced povery ,,, You being asked to laugh at a man who could not go to school because he never had uniform or money to buy books.. You are being asked to laugh by a man who owns land in Jamaica, but tells a poor man he should be ashamed to have a dream to own his own land.. You been told to laugh by a man who tells a poor man he is a class traitor because he dare admit he pulled him self out of poverty by the sweat of his brow..

So any one laughing I have been laughed at before for think I have been brutalised before by questioning.. aint mean nothing, we Jamaican come out tougher dan dat .but laugh it keeps us all healthy.... but was there ever laughter ????

[Q3210]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

The USA, a failure. The UK, a failure. Germany, a failure.
The sattelite wanna be socialists states, a failure.

Cuba, a success.
Singapore? Bermuda ? Cayman? Scandinavia?
Failures, middle of the road or successful?

[johnnycakes]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

Walhalla:
"y one laughing note you are being told to laugh at a Jamaican by an American...You are being told to laugh at a man with melanain by a man without melanin, you are being asked to laugh at a man who came out of poverty, by a man who never experienced povery ,,, Y"

JC:
I don't have to tell anyone to laugh at what you write baby-killer, I have to tell them NOT to laugh at your senseless posts.
You can also stop the racism. It makes you out to be not only uncaring as regards the millions who die under your beloved "ting" but a narrow minded person as well.
You are also incorrect in saying that I have never experienced poverty.
Granted, living as a child on welfare in the USA is nothing like Third World poverty but all things are relative and the stigma of living on welfare is stamped on the millions who are forced to do so.

xxxxxxx

Please do not simulate curse words using ####, $%@, or *** etc. as replacement for letters).
the rules

[Wahalla]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Walhalla:
"y one laughing note you are being told to laugh at a Jamaican by an American...You are being told to laugh at a man with melanain by a man without melanin, you are being asked to laugh at a man who came out of poverty, by a man who never experienced povery ,,, Y"

JC:
I don't have to tell anyone to laugh at what you write baby-killer, I have to tell them NOT to laugh at your senseless posts.
You can also stop the racism. It makes you out to be not only uncaring as regards the millions who die under your beloved "ting" but a narrow minded person as well.
You are also incorrect in saying that I have never experienced poverty.
Granted, living as a child on welfare in the USA is nothing like Third World poverty but all things are relative and the stigma of living on welfare is stamped on the millions who are forced to do so.

xxxxxxxxx </div></div>

Being rude and the use of implied expletives is hardly a demontration of a cohernt, systemised aproach to poltical dialoue...

[Wardob]

Re: Jamaica too rich to be poor, says Golding - JLP outlines

“I have faith in Jamaicans to think our way out and develop our resources.. The moment outside experts decides our strategy has been demonstrated as ineffective.... Not like a man who tells you are laughing who questions our ability to produce original solutions to our own issues, and we should accept a visions of the son and grandson of plantation owner

So any one laughing note you are being told to laugh at a Jamaican by an American...You are being told to laugh at a man with melanain by a man without melanin, you are being asked to laugh at a man who came out of poverty, by a man who never experienced poverty,,, You being asked to laugh at a man who could not go to school because he never had uniform or money to buy books.. You are being asked to laugh by a man who owns land in Jamaica, but tells a poor man he should be ashamed to have a dream to own his own land. You been told to laugh by a man who tells a poor man he is a class traitor because he dare admit he pulled him self out of poverty by the sweat of his brow”… Wahalla

Well said……. Well said ..