Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
You pick on what YOU perceive as faults in the Cuban revolution.

Wahalla: So we should accept a political system without critical analysis.. Remember you advocated it. I merely thought it through..


and tout the advantages of the very capitalism that they had to throw out by force of arms and by risking their lives to do so.

Wahalla: Good for Cuba, not acceptable for Jamaica…
You act as if the healthcare, education, guaranteed housing , employment, nutritional standards and the provision of a safe environment in which to live and raise a family count for nothing in the face of Cuba not having political parties or as you see it having one as if the PNP and the JLP do not stand for the very same things: rule from the top ;politically and rule from the top economically.

Wahalla: And both the Jamaica Labour Party and Peoples National Party spout the usual clicje as well as the Party communist of Cuba. The only difference is that Jamaicans seem able via their imperfect media system to be able to call fro the over throw of those that keep them in poverty…And they can charecterise their leaders as incompetent, change them… Now what happen to any one who calls for the removal of the poltical party (Partido Communista de Cuba) that has over sight of the commanding heights of the economy….

Cuba is the ONLY poor Third World country to provide the basics of life for ALL-EACH AND EVERY person in the country and even free eye operations for tens of thousands of Jamaicans.

Wahalla: Oh yes.. I agree it has a good education, good health care.. And menial growth… Stymied private iniative.. Offer that to the Jamnaican electorate…. They would laugh at you….

The United States is in large part responsible for many of the shortcomings in the Cuban economy yet you totally ignore this fact.

Wahalla: That is a laugh.. Exactly how in the last thirty years ???? Who do the Cubans trade with ??? Does the US interfere with trade between Venezuela, Jamaica, China, Europe and Cuba ????? Do they over sink ships? Does anything have to be transhipped via the US ?? Ever hear Is there a single medicine that the Cuban cant find an economic alternative for????? Was the laughable blockade interfering interfering wuth the Cuban economy effective ??? An interesting question why did Cuba lose its main trading partners once they were given a choice to trade with ??? Was that the responsibity of the US or evidence that the Cuban system with its wages lower than China is unable to maintain develop, produce at a competitive rate????? Or then suppose then the Cuban economy is effectively isolated, could this wonderful economy with its oversight by the geniuses of the PCC not produce alternatives cheaper than say they buy from China or the possibility that the Cubans themselves are responsible for their own shortcomings ???? If Cuba wants Mr Hill fine, Jamaica does not .



the U.S. just a few short years to beat Jamaica into turning out Manley using the same tactics it used in Chile, Nicaragua and many other countries around the world.

Wahalla: Having witnessed Manley’s incompetence…. That’s laughable.. Any way Manley was not a socialist according to you…

The Jamaicans ate up the false rumors spread by the CIA about the Manley government hoarding oil and rice and created artificial shortages by doing so.

Wahal;la: And Jousha admits there was no interference, both during his first and second stints as Prime Minister. I forgot only Johnny Cakes knows, the supposed cause with his Jamaican resources could not possibly be correct… Lets see Joshua or Johnny, hard but a Gringo or a Yardie , who do I believe… The Yardie.. Which is tantamount to admitting that he Joshua (Whom I thought was rather personable, of good and sound charaveter) was wrong from 72 – 80. He was so wrong that when he was re-elected he changed his tune to a free market…


The CIA planted stories in the compliant Gleaner and other Jamaican media outlets as they have done elsewhere since post WWII. They shipped in thousands of weapons that plague Jamaica to this day.

Wahalla: Wow Jamaican Journalist noted for their incompetence.. They only swallowed the lies of the CIA…Tjhey never witnessed and reported. They never had a Prime Minsister shake a fist at them and wov publicly to withhold their news print. They are owned by whom ??? The government never attempted to start its own government inspired daily sheet… And the Jamaicans of whom I take quiet pride to be one, so owver whememed went and bought the new alternative government newssheet.. inspired and filled with insipuid journalism al a “ Granma” And having witnessed being told by socialist that flour was only for sale to Socialists…. I know that never happened…
It took just a few years for Jamaica to cave in and look where Jamaica is socially, economically and politically; worse off than in colonial times.

Wahalla: As much as, Jamaica is actually better than under colonialism…. And actually an examination of Manleys spend while not investing loans into infrastructure demonstrates the real cause of our falls.. He cut off the balls of the enthurnurial class and told them to take the five flights to Miami… Well they went to the US and through out the 80’s just which group of people had the highest average incomes ????….

Cuba has been fighting the same war for over 47 years and all you can say is that they're screwed up because of the PCC and lack of capitalism.

Wahalla: No I can say that the PCC an unelected political party (unelected poltical cadre) has oversight of the economy.. It prevents personal development of the economy. Please get a list of supplies that Cuba has been denied by the blockade that it could not get from the former soviet union, or a shipping agent in Panama City ….

To you it's not a question of whether the glass is 80% full but that it is 20% empty and then blame it on things that have nothing to do with Cuba's problems.

Wahalla: merely it that it canonise poverty… Ameliorated rather than liberates those in poverty. If you want it in Cuba.. Good for you.. If you want it in the US OK… But it is inappropriate for Jamaica… Let me repeat good for Cuba… Who has oversight of the Cuban Econony.. Out of your own mouth.. The PCC….

All you care about is capitalism: the very system that has impoverished about half the world, kills scores of millions through poverty, is making life hell for more and more Jamaicans every day.

Wahalla: Ah ha, project once more..

Your stance is immoral, inhumane and detestable.

Wahalla: Ah Johnny.. I am amoral, what you offer is merely a stabilisation of the economy in povrty , with out the possibility to lift any one out of poverty. It has been rejected when attempted.. Let see an Yankee telling a Jamaican what political system he should have.. And because I find a system based on the 19th century European socio poltical philoshy ? I am in humane. Poverty is a crime… Now which country according to your world view reaps the reward of keeping Jamaicans in poverty ? And who lives there me or you ?????


Your arguments are chock full of historic, economic and social errors of fact and you cling to them in the face of fact that is readily available. You twist what I say and I have no further desire to spend time correcting your deliberate bending of fact.

Wahalla: Which errors are those that? That the Soviets had a analogues party to the PCC based, economic system based on Marxist Leninism much like Fidel and his family have in place in Cuba ???? That there is a single unelected political party that decides on an orthodoxy that should be applied in Cuba? That an organization with a political party is a political party ???? There is not a single inaccuracies on my part..
Now looking at the above statements” Your arguments are chock full of historic, economic and social errors of fact” and “your deliberate bending of fact”.. seems IMHO contradictory as to my command of the facts.. If my argument is filled with error of facts, I cannot twist facts… I know you don’t like my interpretation of the facts since they don’t come from a yankee source. It is the result of the cross conection of nurons in my brain firing electrical impulses.. Note in a previous post you admitted I could think so you cant call me an idiot with any credibility…

More to the point, it is degrading to debate with you given your lack of compassion and hatred for the poor of the world.

Wahalla: Ah… Now let me think of a historical president where this happened to my ancestors… When a Coverso financed expedition refused to debate with men and woment of Taino heritage.. No they stop the debating and imposed a poltical system on us…They too thought it was degrading to debate… What gonna send me to a sanatorium ????. Guess the analogy is “arguments are chock full of historic, economic and social errors of facts” … Now you are telling me what I feel… And every one who disagrees with you hates the poor… Good projection, inaccurate analysis.… That is the approach of religion, acceptance owith out critical thinking and you will remain poor, accept Johnny Cakes poltics all else is wrong.. No-one hates poverty than fidel and Jonny Cakes is his sage….religion requires that kind of faith not historical analysis… Are you going to make an announcement much loved by the left and tell me to go live in the United States now ??? oops that’s where you live….

Inas much as you refuse to accept history as fact, I will henceforth discuss your posts only in terms of morality which should be easy enough for even you to understand.

Wahalla: You have yet to demonstrate a single fact of mine that is inaccurate... What history I have not accepted ???? That the PCC supported Batista, that the PCC wanted to take over the commanding heights of the Cuban economy, that Fidel took over the PCC, then folded into the PCC all the left wing political parties…while maintain at its core poltical philoshy democratic socialism based on Marxism ? That the same socialist pilotis of the PCC remains the same before and post 1961 an offshoot of European Marxism Leninism ???? That the PCC closed down small business by the use of taxation and fees while giving tax breaks to transnationals ???? That the PCC oversees the economy to ensure that it sticks oto its orthodoxy ???? That there are private farms that breeds cattle in Cuba ????


Lastly, a few questions:

Cuba has solved the problems of poverty that afflict billions in the Third World by adhering strictly to a socialist economy which spreads the goods and services available in an egalitarian way; regardless of a person's age, race , religion, sex, ability to work but with the sole criterion being that they are a human being and deserving of the basics of life.

Wahalla: The problem of poverty is poverty….Cuba have maintained poverty, not solved it…Unless of course you will tell me that there is no poverty. Yet a few weeks back, there was an article published that showed the Cuban prosecuting the Rastafarians as drug dealers… Which you characterised as what ????
That since the majority of Rasta’s are black it comes as no surprise….A simple mind no stretch of the imagination to see this as one more attempt to prosecute religion and race, however it is my view that it is prosecuted because it presents a different life view of world than that force fed onto the Cuban people.

Is it or is it not your position that no one deserves anything but what they can buy with the money they have or can get?

Wahalla: It is not my position. Your position is clear.. only Fidel and his cohorts are capable of rational or effective thinking…And Jamaicans should to deal with our social issues simply convert to a poltical system ala Fidel…..Human beings are entitled to a living, they are entitle to retain the profit of their efforts. They are entitled to living in a state that protects both their interest and their property, they are entitled to security of existence and they are entited to determination of how their wealth is deployed. Not to have the PCC or Kamunist party telling them how to do this without the option of removing them from being the guardians of the wealth. Marx and Engels defined such system in their 18th centuary polemic “ The communist maniefesto as Dictatorship of the Proletarian” Enngles after hearing news of the developments in the united states, stated that their philosophy was nolonger valid in the new world. Thus you are offering a system who’s authour repudiated its own validity within a month after publishing it……. The fact of the matter is that depending on the largess of a large corporation is equally idiotic as to depend on the largess of an unelected party such as the PCC….

That human beings are not entitled to share in the wealth of the Earth in an equal fashion.
And is it not your position that Jesus was wrong when he said that taking care of the poor should be THE priority?

Wahalla: The Nazarene is reputed to have mentioned rendering onto Caesar what is Casers…And with rewards post mortem.. I kind of think of him as irelevant to poltical discoure.. If you want relgion I can oblidge....However if you could present me with collaborating evidence to the existence of Jesus, I am will to debate post Athenian Hebrew philoshoy. I would call my position closer to that of Sanhidrin. ….Wealth as Marx inelegantly defined it is a ”congealment of labour”, and that workers were entitled to the benefit of their iniative. It is not the government to decide how one deploys ones labour.. But the generator of value actually decides how to deploy his or her resources. The fact of the matter that we Jamaicans rejected the overseeing of our well being by a unelected few , why would we hand over our capability to generate weath into the hands of “a few members of a equivalent of the PCC” … Why would we leave our voice in government to two single occasions through out the year ? I would want my elected officals acting and interacting on my behalf…. Why would we simple let an unelected body such as the PCC decide how the economy runs .. Render onto Johnny cakes what is Johhny cakes…The interest of governments is to governor, provide the infrastructure and resources necessary to maintain human life in dignity. The government must in order to maintain infrastructure raise capital by taxation of the goods and services generated by the country. Taxes should be raised for the benefit of the taxed not to fulfuill the discredited philoshies of some dead, son of a factory owner…. I want a system that encourage private iniative at the same time taxes in a manner that increases as the wealth generated increases…Governments are bureaucratic inflexible machines that cannot respond to either the economic conditions of generation of wealth or to acknowledge the needs of the population above the basic subsistence necessities of life to maintain life. (That is what Cuba does gives rations, telling us that Cuban people are ) Or how come Cuba with a lower rate of pay than China cannot compete with China in markets it has access to ????[/b]

You can comment or not on the first part of my post but let us clear up your moral position as regards humanity, life on this Earth and answer the questions contained in the paragraph above.

Wahalla: Yes I will obey you oh wise one…. Lets summarise my position on what you offer to Jamaica “ Cuba much admired, but never copied”…..

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
What all this boils down to is the fact that you oppose Cuba's democratic socialist set up because you do not want to share with the poor, the disadvantaged, those who had the misfortune of being born in the wrong place.

You harp on points that are relatively minor while ignoring the overwhelming good that the Cuban Revolution has done for ALL Cubans.

You support the capitalism that went from its entrepeneurial beginnings to the oligarchic and monopolistic monster that it has become and which now kills scores of millions of the world's poor while immiserating half of the world's people for the benefit of a relative handful.

Religion and politics do indeed go hand in hand. Whether one believes in the divinity of Christ or not has nothing to do with what he taught as our first priority and that is helping the poor and not getting rich. As we learn from experience governments have to provide the structure under which the poor are lifted from the misery. Private charities have not done it and cannot do it unless biblical endorsed tithing is followed and it is not.

In short, the system you tout and defend is not only incapable and unwilling to ameliorate poverty but is the cause of it.
The system that is ineffect in poor and besieged Cuba has, with limited resources eliminated the effects of poverty, something the United States and the other rich countries have been unable (and unwilling) to do.

In two thousand years capitalism in its various evolving forms has concentrated wealth more and more and impoverished a greater and greater number of people.

It does not work for the people of the world. It is patently selfish, unfair, immoral, against all moral teachings.

And you not only support a totalitarian economic system that you admit will never be able to provide for more than half the people of the world, you shout it from the rooftops and worse, cannot see the immorality of your position.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,

Wahalla: And there I was thinking you said you wont debate with me.. Flip flopping again ?????

What all this boils down to is the fact that you oppose Cuba's democratic socialist set up because you do not want to share with the poor, the disadvantaged, those who had the misfortune of being born in the wrong place.

Wahalla: Since you were born in the right place like Bush and Roosevelt and I was not….Does that grant as much wisdom as Bush or Roosevelt to tell me from the wrong place what is right????. .You love Cuban system have it in your country.. I wont oppose you.. And I promise I wont tell you its wrong……. I oppose the imposition of a single unelected party (oh you don’t like that term).. So to have the unelected poetry reciting society (like the PCC)that has control od the Cuban economy as a seems a bad for Jamaica .. I don’t oppose Cuba, let them stay where they want.. I just don’t want it for my own… Let me repeat.. Don’t mind Cuba, you can keep it…. Get that..

You harp on points that are relatively minor while ignoring the overwhelming good that the Cuban Revolution has done for ALL Cubans.


Wahalla: So the whole of my premis is who has overriding control of an economy.. Is that a minor matter????

You support the capitalism that went from its entrepeneurial beginnings to the oligarchic and monopolistic monster that it has become and which now kills scores of millions of the world's poor while immiserating half of the world's people for the benefit of a relative handful.


Wahalla: ( in future don’t question my spelling… as entrepeneurial and immiserating is evidence of perfection)
A simplistic incomplete analysis of my position…But then that’s a typical approach of you from the right place.. this tendency to see your opinion as gospels, while the ideas of us from the wrong place does not have value…. The function of government is to provide the basic needs of its people…. It is not the function of governments to generate wealth. It is to let other creat wealth then tax the hell out of them to provide the nessesary services . They may own the means the of production, but they have proven unless they are run with the intention of a private business they are in capable of increasing value.. Examine all the value of the internet.. developed by scientists in CERN.. But made no profit and used as means to enhance destruction consider what happened when private indivuals got it… Not w.. Governments can do health care, education, emergency aid, building wealth not its forte….. Cuba an example…

Religion and politics do indeed go hand in hand.

Wahalla: And there I thought you were a fidelista. .See what Fidel says on the subject.. How many times has the beard said it was a separate issue and the church should nto interfere in poltics ???? Course he must be wrong….

Whether one believes in the divinity of Christ or not has nothing to do with what he taught as our first priority

Wahalla: Action speaks louder than words….Ok lets look at actions contained in the myths.. accepted as truth by many… You want to pick out what suits you.. pick a few more of a mythal unsubstantiated first centaury Jewish fanatic….HE did not go to the government for more alcohol at the wedding.. The man on his own iniative made his own home brew.. To market his ideas to 5000 people he fed them. Pork Belly politics if you chose to call him a poltician or pork belly religion.. He didn’t go to the local authority… He did it himself… .Given that he had the capability to end world hunger at the time he seems to have done decidedly little.. Just think he could have produced all the food the people needed instead he chose not to do that… He was selective with whom he raised from the dead, he was selective with whom he cured and vindictive toward those who did not thank him…. He cursed a fig tree that was out of season.. Used extra judicial violence on those whos actions he disagreed with… And when his friends tried to defend the helpless he stopped them… Now hardly a paragon of virtue….And you want me to accept his derived truisms to base for political analysis ?????? Religion is about myth, morality and faith..

Politics is the art and science of government. Politics is the means of maintenance the attempt to atain power by an individual or a collective of individuals..This means the individual or choral society must attempt concentration of power in order to maintain itself becomes the center…. It is thus amoral… In order to maintain power it must justify itself and maintain that its fundamental ideas are solely moral. That is the first fundamental political deception.

.. .….The moment government interferes in religion it becomes an imposition, takes away the value of critical thinking, forcing morality (which is a historical fluid concept at best)… into a singular static postion. And this is the fundamental flaw of a system that does not have the necessary outside agency to ensure that its very fundamentals are tested. So you keep granting your self superior morality are merely demonstrating intolerance of other beliefs and possibilities….Excluding them…

This is why the a concept of an diameic opposing philoshoy arose.. Marx got the idea from Hegel, the concept of a dielectic materialism.. Where Marx the factory owner was wrong was the fact that the opposition cannot simply disappear into a synthesis other wise the synthesis is the orthodoxy.

The orthodoxy as applied by the PCC is a synthesis of history primary stemming from a European arena given very little in put from the local conditions….. Apply that for a system to be truly democratic it must have opposing or multiple philoshies on the matter of socieatal development, the economics. The concept of a nation state cannot become blurred inot a unelected choral society that has over view of the means of production ..(some marx & enengles ) unless there is an organised opposition this will and does happen.. You want historical president to demonstrate this… Look at post war Germany and Japan.. The us created independent trade unions as well as poltical parties.. The Soviets created singular parties and controlled unions.. Which countries grew ???? Austria or Poland ????? … The moment religion involves in government it becomes intolerant. And poltics only becomes a religion when a single orgainsed philoshy is sole control of either the means of production or the over all economic philoshy. Under this concept the Iranian mullahs are in effect more democratic than the Cubans.

What he did is takes first priority as according to legend he kicked out the generators of value from a religious institution.. Thus demonstrating practically That the problem with religion it picks and chooses what part of a philoshy is relevant while ignoring the other parts that demonstrates the entire oppostie

Thus divorcing the economy from religious and that is helping the poor and not getting rich.


Wahalla: The man did say give to Ceasar whats Ceasar and when asked if he was a potlical leader under the treat of death by that Perthshire Scot he denied it by no answering..Thus demonstrating that your moral compass was against the concept

As we learn from experience governments have to provide the structure under which the poor are lifted from the misery. Private charities have not done it and cannot do it unless biblical endorsed tithing is followed and it is not.

In short, the system you tout and defend is not only incapable and unwilling to ameliorate poverty but is the cause of it.
The system that is ineffect in poor and besieged Cuba has, with limited resources eliminated the effects of poverty, something the United States and the other rich countries have been unable (and unwilling) to do.

Wahalla: But they have not destroyed poverty with its better education, heatlh care system… they merely made poverty the accepted norm…

In two thousand years capitalism in its various evolving forms has concentrated wealth more and more and impoverished a greater and greater number of people.

Wahalla::: Reallly….

It does not work for the people of the world. It is patently selfish, unfair, immoral, against all moral teachings.

Wahalla: see above…poltics is amoral

And you not only support a totalitarian economic system that you admit will never be able to provide for more than half the people of the world, you shout it from the rooftops and worse, cannot see the immorality of your position.

Wahalla: Again I don’t oppose Cuban or Fidel or his philosphy as long it goes to your country or kanada and leaves mine alone

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Have you ever even visited Cuba Johnny ??????

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
You certainly do go on.
I did say that I would debate the morality of our respective positions on capitalism and socialism.

Does capitalism have any cure for the effects of the poverty it causes?
Has it had any in the centuries it has existed?

Socialism has done just that in Cuba in less than fifty years AND under attack from the United States for all that time.

Your thought that socialism impoverishes all is, of course, ludicrous.
There is only so much to go around. In the world today there are enough goods and services to provide a decent life for every human being on the planet.

The reason they do not get what they need is due entirely to capitalist economies.
In Cuba, the only democratic socialist state on Earth what they have is distributed in a fair fashion so that all get what they need for a decent life.Cuba feeds, clothes, houses, provides health and educational services and a safe environment in which to raise a family.


This does not happen in any of the rest of the Third World countries that have capitalist economies.
In those countries a relative handful live lives of splendor while 50% or more of the rest of the country lives in dire poverty.

Where does your beloved capitalism, the system in which the right to get rich comes before the needs of humanity do anything close to what Cuba does?

Economics and politics are amoral only in THEORY. In practice they become either moral as is the case in Cuba or immoral as is the case in the rest of the Third World economies and totalitarian political rule.

I can understand your wishing to distance yourself from the immorality that is inherent in your position as apparently even you recognize how sociopathic your thinking is in reality, in practice.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,

Quote: "( in future don’t question my spelling… as entrepeneurial and immiserating is evidence of perfection)"

And just what is wrong with the words "entrepeneurial" and "immiserating"?
The usage and spelling is correct in both cases.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you ever even visited Cuba Johnny ?????? </div></div>

To answer this question AGAIN.

No.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

"You certainly do go on.

Wahalla::::.. What do you want piffy slogans based on the truths that a simple six year old can tell you.. Or do want critical complex analysis.????. Or is my cousin Fidel the only one capable.????. Or should my demonstration with reference to historical data be deemed not relevant because they come from a source from the wrong place????….Or my historical facts are inaccurate????. But then you never took the time to plough through economic??????? Do you see a debate as an exchange of ideas or just the shouting of slogans.. with who has the most popularity wins ???? At least you did not do what white men from your country are faced by a intelligent man with melanin content call him articulate!!!!!!!. Not as much as Fidel who can chat for up to 8 hours..

Ever read fidels latest sports writing.. He is not as good at the Times Cricket Correspondents but he is not bad…..

I did say that I would debate the morality of our respective positions on capitalism and socialism

Wahalla: As all Gringo’s every thing must be presented in the simplistic diametric opposites.. There are no absolutes…. No left no right. Capitalism has long been contaminated, socialists are looking for markets.. The market is indicative and socialism is only true socialism in North Korea….


Does capitalism have any cure for the effects of the poverty it causes?

Wahalla: Can socialism lift a single person out of poverty would be the obvious retort. But to explain some issues of basic historical economics …Socialism as Marx put is the ineveiable consequence of Capitalist been anything but an unremited disaster.. Examine the consequences of the nationalisation of the soviet agriculture in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s saw the mass starvation of the rural population of the Ukraine while the single overseers of the economy were in denial creating Ptokim projects to convince outside sympathiser that all was a proletarian paradise…. Again the same thing happen every decade until the sixtes…. Blame Stalin however it was the policies that were professed and practiced… Or blame the US.. How can the US be responsible for a falling harvest inspite of the investments made at collectivisation of the economy ????? When the distribution of the grain saw a mass redistribution of the calorific resources from the country to the city…. The cities had sufficient but the Urkraine starved… Question the fall in the economy in 60-61 in Cuba, ask the solution proffered by the soviet economic experts a switch back from the promised and initial agrian reforms with the break up of the latifundias into small holdings.. There was a corresponding fall in the GDP but an increase in the quality of life for the Cubans.. They never had it so good before or since.. And what happened in 61 ??? the PCC took over the oversight of the Cuban economy after folding in all left wing political parties within its umbrella of a single political discipline…. And then they stopped being a political party and became a collection of Barber Shop Quartets with the power to stymie personal economic initiative …


I am debating the irrelevance of the Cuban experience to Jamaica….
Has it had any in the centuries it has existed?

Socialism has done just that in Cuba in less than fifty years AND under attack from the United States for all that time.

Wahalla: and a country with a lower wages than /china cannot compete? Yet with whom you say are better educated than Jamaicans.. After providing education, health care, housing the people for fifty years yet remain economic worst off than Jamaica … t seem that a philophser from the wrong place would disagree.. Garvey believed in many things that I find unpalatable yet at his core was the belief that governments were to express the will of the people. Not the will of a poltical eletie having an over sight of the economy… He too was for personal iniative as a corner stone of economy. But was he incapable of thinking either ??????…. You are under the miscomprehension that because I don’t support the imposition fo Castro personal preference on Jamaica I am against people eating regularly, having access to medicine or education….

Your thought that socialism impoverishes all is, of course, ludicrous.

Wahalla: I said it perpetuates and maintains the status of poverty other wise the North Koreans would be on the moon and the Soviets would be lending money to the Americans…Not the Kommunist goverment that allows private iniative

There is only so much to go around. In the world today there are enough goods and services to provide a decent life for every human being on the planet.

Wahalla: Fine words, noble sentiments, commonly agreed, simplistic…...Yet Marx understood the basics unless wealth grows an economy will stagnate.. So we distribute the food and services transferring wealth to the poorest ??? Then what… The generators of weath will no longer generate wealth… The Cuban government proves this….One the initial produced wealth then investments due to go toe infrastructure begin to be used to distribute to be consumed … There is a deflation of the economy… How do I know history.

The capitalists left Cuba, the budding entranuers left Jamaica both economys flat lined.. The Cubans blamed the Americans and wreckers.. The Soviets did the same….

Study the cases of food aid to Africa and its ill effects on the local economy of blind distribution past the point once life is stabilised.. the macro economic effects are devastating…What food aid once life is stabilised it underminds the economy of the receipent … As a African saying that crossed the atlantic put it “ Free things are no good”….. Noble sentiments are noble sentiments… While you will tell me I twist history examine the marco economic causes of the red terror in Paris……..You can have distribution fo food the first year, a falling harvest the second year because farmers will not make the effort to produce (using food as a metaphor for wealth generation then the seed stock is raided and distributed famine the 2th year…. Unless food production can be effectively increased can there not equitable distribution. You are hung up on distribution not production.. Yes governments can be good at distribution, (its called tax) they just suck at production….


The reason they do not get what they need is due entirely to capitalist economies.
In Cuba, the only democratic socialist state on Earth what they have is distributed in a fair fashion so that all get what they need for a decent life.Cuba feeds, clothes, houses, provides health and educational services and a safe environment in which to raise a family.

Wahalla: at what stage did Cuba feed it self, ???? And when will the country rise out of penuary… From a personal perspective when I went to the personal socialist paradise of the FSU I discovered they had a lower quality of life than the JamaIca of my youth even when I was on less than fifty cents a day….Decent life ? Hell no…

This does not happen in any of the rest of the Third World countries that have capitalist economies.

Wahalla: Guess the people of Barbados and the Bahamans may disagree with you…

In those countries a relative handful live lives of splendor while 50% or more of the rest of the country lives in dire poverty.


Where does your beloved capitalism, the system in which the right to get rich comes before the needs of humanity do anything close to what Cuba does?


Economics and politics are amoral only in THEORY. In practice they become either moral as is the case in Cuba or immoral as is the case in the rest of the Third World economies and totalitarian political rule.

Wahalla: Your experience of Cuba and poverty is theoretical, my expericnes of both is not….. Since morality is an issue of a individual personal choices and politics is defined by the interaction of perceived public need. Morality could be defined as the ability to defieneciate between right and wrong….. Morality in politics is like a chicken making a treaty with a butcher…. The phase “by any means nessesary” is a sentiment and a practical approach to economic and social development. It is amoral, it express an indifference to the morality of any particular action….While it was Malcolm X or Haj or little who popularised it I believe Niccolo Macheivelli who first articulated it… Lets look at some really amoral deals…..Lenin and your Hero my cousin Fidel who practice it… Lenin called for a two prong approach to gaining power, one a confrontation, while at the same time corporation with the bougsise Duma…. Churchill, Roosevelt both personal morality adhored Stalin yet signed a deal. Churchill the arch capitalist who had his personal morality was responsible nationalised industry and set the frame work to have socialised medicine,and socialsytem Churchill / Roosevelt who knowingly turned over Polish, Hungeriuan émigré troops knowing they would be butchered by Stalin.. The deals at Yalta was a prime example of moral men acting outside their sense of morality. So was the treaty at Berlin…. … Roosevelt who a few days back you presented as a hero….Was the first who coined the phrase “ he is a son of a [censored], but he is our son of a [censored]” in reference to Somoza the Uncle…… The Finnish democratic Government of the thirties and forties practically coorporated with every single type of regime to maintain a single principle. (Both good and evil) And fought with every single national army that participated with the exception of the Japanese. Though I am sure they had a treaty of non aggression… What was Stalins ability to win, Zukov called it his ability to pour men into the meat grinder to save .. The Cubans who adhored the corporation of the US but let me suggest you who love to tell us about Angola and Cuba, find out what the troops of Fidel were doing in the north of Angola …. And a further examination of why the Cubans pulled out of Angola rather than fight to the bitter end.. That sewing circle the PCC while overseeing the Cuban economy called for the destructions of translational.. And according to you they are moral guardians of poverty yet when their economy was falling to bits did they call on more centralisation… No they invited in the same transnationals to develop the commanding heights of their economy as well as allow personal iniative ie capitalism to bail them out during the “special” period.. or was that simply immorality on their part… ???? By any means necessary.. Good or evil is irrelevant.. Lincoln your hero from yesterday the native American butcher what was his comment on slavery ????, He stated it was immoral, yet he stated categorically that the main issue was the preservation of the union… He would support a union with or without slavery….
t is a subjective assertion as to the

I can understand your wishing to distance yourself from the immorality that is inherent in your position as apparently even you recognize how sociopathic your thinking is in reality, in practice.

Wahalla: I am a self confessed an amoral political animal… I demonstrated the amorality of Che, Fidel, the PCC, Stalin, Stalin, Lincoln, Churchill, Roosvelt, Jesus ( What would you call a man who allegedly could feed the hungry but did not, moral?????) People who believe they have unique moral compasses are forever adjudging others by the limitations of their own belief systems … I acknowledged the principle of the need to compromise to throw aside basic personal concepts of morality in order to govern. In order to compromise it may be necessary to suspend core beliefs amorality in other words accept evil …. To achieve a goal it is necessary to comit or have committed acts of immorality…(why did the PCC rule with Batista.. For moral reasons or to attain power. They suspended their core beliefs, their essential principles).. As Manley your hero once said to me.. And a few million others “politics is the art of compromise” The ability to be amoral is a feature of being a sociopath ..Are all your political heros sociopaths ?????????.. Ah a moral man using sociopaths as the yard stick of morality…..

Congratulations one post with out a personal attack a first for you

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Wahalla: I am a self confessed an amoral political animal.

As I have said, your belief, your espousal of capitalism is amoral only in theory. In practice it is totally immoral.

Capitalism is undemocratic as are the political systems under which it exists.

Socialism is based on taking care of people first.
Capitalism is based on making as much money as possible since there is no guarantor of survival other than the posssession of money under that system.
Under capitalism there is no caring for one's neighbors and in fact capitalism enforces selfishness and the necessity for ignoring babies starving to death as you do.

Amoral?

Not by any stretch of the imagination.

As for not making personal attacks on you, your argument does a far better job than I could.

Amoral ?
You can't hide your inhumanity behind that word.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Wahalla: I am a self confessed an amoral political animal.

As I have said, your belief, your espousal of capitalism is amoral only in theory. In practice it is totally immoral.


Capitalism is undemocratic as are the political systems under which it exists.

Wahalla: And their I was thinking according to you that the PCC was not a poltical organisation!


Socialism is based on taking care of people first.

Wahalla: like the North Koreans ????

Capitalism is based on making as much money as possible since there is no guarantor of survival other than the posssession of money under that system.
Under capitalism there is no caring for one's neighbors and in fact capitalism enforces selfishness and the necessity for ignoring babies starving to death as you do.


Amoral?

Wahalla: Johnny have you ever seen a starving baby in your life apart from on ABC, NBC, CBS ????? So that is a merely theoretical construct for you… Wow you live under capitalism you must live in a awful place.. Do your neighbours only speak to you if you pay them or something ? If they see your children in trouble they wont intervene till they are paid ?????? They don’t pay their taxes and local rates.. They leave their houses untended unless paid to do so ???? Don’t they help old ladies across the street ?? They don’t organise community parties and only invite those who can pay….They dotn care about the health care system and schools… While in Socialist Cuba, neighbours well they all have social conscience and never scam the state … I repeat it is the duty of the government to ensure that there is services available for all individuals these include health care, education and infra structure .. Funny thing about Jamaicans they agree with this and they would reject your Fidelist Leninist marxism state….


Again there is no true undiluted capitalism... Both the idea of all goods and services soley being determined by the market is an impossibility. Neither is socialism an existence in a vacuum.

So you are a socialist judge a capitalist to be immoral.. Yet a Capitalist judges a socialist to be equally immoral… Thus each characterisation are diametrically opposed to each other. They are therefore unable to judge each other rationally in terms of their own processes.. Just like you are unable to judge the success of the Cuban economy except on a theortical basis….

But that is self evident truth…. I have espoused the use of private iniative to generate wealth and the government to tax wealth to distribute.. You advocate the distribution of wealth as the reason detra of government. Governments cannot generate wealth effectively except if they run a business in the manner of a private company…. The story of UK Rover demonstrates this… And Cuba would not have a lower average GDP than the US. … So if socialism is moral then all actions taken on its name are therefore moral…. Thus the PCC approving the use of Transnational companies denizens of capitalism to develop their economy.. So unless if my so called support of capitalism is immoral from your perspective is the PCC that group of opera franatics with oversight of the Cuban economy
Morality is a fluid concept but this is a case of the bishop and the actress
Not by any stretch of the imagination.

As for not making personal attacks on you, your argument does a far better job than I could.

Wahalla: Illogical, irrational and petulant…. What now you are belittleing a demonstration of rhetoric, historical analysis lateral thinking….. I have deconstructed every single one of your argument, and demonstrated case history to support my position….. And what you come back with???? Irrational platitudes such as your last comment….. you accuse me of being a sociopath I demonstrated that what you call imoral has been carried out by each of your hero's
Amoral ?
You can't hide your inhumanity behind that word.

Wahalla: Now you come back with the personal attacks…. Come again Johnny walk the line...

So Jamaicans should be stopped from "try ah ting".... All my life I have heard a Jamaicans use that term to indicate they had an idea and would run wid it...

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
Just to take one thing out of the many distortions in your last post which is typical of the blather you issue to defend your immoral position:

I said: "Socialism is based on taking care of people first."
and you dishonestly come back with:

Wahalla: "like the North Koreans ????"

Now when have I ever said anything good about North Korea's totalitarian Stalinist government? Our discussion has centered around democratic socialist Cuba.
To drag in North Korea is irrelevant since NK is a dictatorship in which the people have no say in how the goods and services will be distributed.

That's why so much of what you post is meaningless to the topic at hand which is the immorality of capitalism which places profit ahead of human need and Cuba's democratic socialism which has done what no other poor Third World country has done, what very few First and Second World countries have done and that is provide and guarantee the basics of life to every one of its citizens.

Given that it is a poor country, there is no doubt then that the many richer countries could do likewise but a capitalist economy dictates otherwise and basically enforces poverty and misery on half the world.

Answer the question: What are your answers under capitalism for preventing the deaths of scores of millions of poor each year in the Third World from starvation and curable/preventable disease?


Spare me the extraneous verbiage and just answer the question.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay fine. What is it that makes the Cubans in Miami so hateful of their beloved Castro?
Seems that once the Cubans land on US soil their minds go smucked.
And after knowing that, they still risk the journey to join with their fellow Cuban Floridians on Radio Marti. </div></div>

Q- Sorry to be so late in getting back to you-Missed your two posts.

The Cubans in Miami are the Cubans who either lost their wealth and large land holdings after the revolution or are people who cannot live under a socialist economy.
They make the often perilous journey to Florida because the U.S. Cuban Adjustment Act stipulates that any Cuban who floats in is admitted to the U.S.. This law passed to embarrass the Cuban government and make it appear to those who know little of the reality that Cuba is such a horrible place that Cubans are willing to ruisk their lives by rafting in.
How many would you think would try it if guaranteed admission to the U.S were not awaited them? How many would try it if, like the Haitians, they were all sent back?

Radio Marti is financed by the U.S government. It is just one part of the vast anti-socialist U.S machine

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if it were left to Castro he would allow Cubans free travel to the USA.
</div></div>

Q- It is the United States that limits the number of Cubans to go to the U.S to around 12,000 per year, less than half of the 25,000 agreed to after Mariel.

It has been the longstanding policy of the Cuban government and peoople to allow dissenters to go away since their continued presence would be nothing but problems.

[Wahalla]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

So Johnny you simply dismiss out of hand without evidence irrelevant....That is the preview of religion/ faith not poltical discourse.. You want You wanna dismiss any poitn as irrelevant you have to come up with counterarguments supported by evidence... known that. Well that is a step up from personal attacks...

The problem is Johhny my lad you have too often been ignored and not debated with.. Now it has happened it seems your counter a systematic demolition of your unsupported premis a new method of defense.... Not calling me an eeidiat but simply dismissing and repeating what you said already....

As a you are self confessed in unstudied in the any other poltical system but cuba.. Here are the first 11 articles of the NK consitution.. They clearly state they are socialist.....But then I find narsicism is never a counter argumetn against fact, neither is denial without fact ...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chapter 1 Politics


Article 1

The Democratic People 's Republic of Korea is an independent socialist state representing the interests of all the Korean people.


Article 2

The DPRK is a revolutionary state which has inherited brilliant traditions formed during the glorious revolutionary struggle against the imperialist aggressors, in the struggle to achieve the liberation of the homeland and the freedom and well-being of the people.


Article 3

The DPRK is guided in its activities by the Juche idea, a world outlook centered on people, a revolutionary ideology for achieving the independence of the masses of people.


Article 4

The sovereignty of the DPRK resides in the workers, peasants, working intellectuals and all other working people.

The working people exercise power through their representative organs -- the Supreme People 's Assembly and local people 's assemblies at all levels.


Article 5

All the State organs in the DPRK are formed and function on the principle of democratic centralism.


Article 6

The organs of State power at all levels, from the county People's Assembly to the SPA, are elected on the principle of universal, equal and direct suffrage by secret ballot.


Article 7

Deputies to the organs of State power at all levels have close ties with their constituents and are accountable to them for their work.

The electors may recall the deputies they have elected if the latter are not to be trusted.


Article 8

The social system of the DPRK is a people-centered system under which the working people are masters of everything, and everything in society serves the working people.

The State shall defend and protect the interests of the workers, peasants and working intellectuals who have been freed from exploitation and oppression and become masters of the State and society.


Article 9

The DPRK shall strive to achieve the complete victory of socialism in the northern half of Korea by strengthening the people 's power and vigorously performing the three revolutions -- the ideological, cultural and technical -- and reunify the country on the principle of independence, peaceful reunification and great national unity.


Article 1

The DPRK bases itself on the political and ideological unity of the entire people based on the worker-peasant alliance in which the working class plays a leading role.

The State strengthens the ideological revolution and revolutionizes and working-classizes all the social members, and binds the whole society in a united group, linked up with comradeship.


Article 11

The DPRK shall conduct all activities under the leadership of the Workers ' Party of Korea.
</div></div>

I will add the first phase of the consitution.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a socialist fatherland of Juche </div></div>

Cuba has an nearly identical consituion, says its socialist... So since you dismissed NK as a dictatorship.. Cuba is thus a dictatorship....

NK is thus relevant... socilism is a discredited in Cuba and in North Korea..

I dont have to defend capitalism, I have repeatedly stated that the function of goveremnts is to provide the basics to its populations... Many have failed.... Govermetns cannot generate the weath to provide the goods and services. Goverments may redistribute the wealth generated.. But that is irrelevant to you, all you want to offer is Truisms as poltics..... Even the present leader of Cuba acknowleges that.. Newsweek asserted that three months ago, and Znet has confirmed it....When Fuedalism was in Ethopia, the people starved, when socilaism came ethopia the ppeople starved.. Do you want me to pull the Menguistu constituion to demonstrate they were socialist... Cubans are well educated, good health care, low wages yet their GDP is lower than Jamaica.....Their growth rate is comparable.... Yet Barbadoes is as well educated, has equal health care and has superior growht... With less resources.. That too must be irrelevant.. Given a choice between having a Cuban economy with its constirtuion or a Bajan economy guess which economy system Jamaicans would chose ?????

I have demolished the idea fof morality of the icons you presented, and thus demonstrated the fact that amorality is governing principle of all polticans to acheive their goals . They never say in any constituion I have read.... But I have not read al lthat many..... And your next step is not to demolish any of the arguments I have put forward with supporting evidence with a narscistic simple line " its irrelevant".. I love the fact all I said was irrelevant.. You should note that I presensent the argument that the Soviets precipoitating the famines in the 20's by a system of calorific redistribution... Irrelevant ?????

[johnnycakes]

Re: Is Jamaica Getting These Deals?

Walhalla,
the DRK is a totalitarian society and irrelevant to this discussion and especially to what Cuba is.
The Korean communists are Stalinist. the PCC is Fidelista. If you refuse to acknowledge the differences between the two then you're ignoring reality.

To compare Barbados a small island with a small population to either Cuba with a population of 11 million or to Jamaica with a populationof 3+ million is also irrelevant AND disingenuous.

Talk about Nigeria or any of the countries in Third World sub-Saharan Africa iof you want to talk about similar situations. You bring up the exceptions as if they are the norm.

This thread is about whether Jamaica is getting the deals offered by Venezuela to other countries as well as (now) being about which economic system serves the needs of the people.

Jamaica's subservience to the will of the United States as regards the type of economy it will have and it's long time avoidance of cooperative ventures with Cuba and Venezuela simply because they are socialist and a threat to the status quo does not serve the poor and working poor Jamaican people.

Cuba is taking care of its people, all its people. Venezuela has made huge strides in ameliorating the plight of the large number of poor within that country by sharing what the countries have.

Jamaica does not do that and as a result the conditions will continue as they are or as everything indicates, worsen.

You are a tout for capitalism falsely claiming that it creates wealth.
Labor creates wealth.
Capitalism is just a means of distribution of that wealth that gives an inordinate and unfair share to the owners , the already rich, the already powerful the relative few and immiserates the many.

Answer my question: what is capitalism's solution to the widespread and endless poverty it creates?

We have seen how Cuba's socialism has ended the effects of poverty, starvation, illiteracy, lack of medical care, crime, drug use, homelessness. And it has done so for EVERYONE in the country.

Answer my question, stop evading the central issue.