Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

[papaD]

People

I stayed up to listen to this debate in the very early hours of the morning and I have to say it was deeply embarassing for the PM's management team. On the performance, I am afraid that there might have been substance in what K D and Maxine had to say. She will probably rue the fact she never went to the polls within 3 months - she cannot really think she will get the mandate after that performance? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif[/img]

The PM did not have a grasp of the issues - I felt embarassed for her and also for the nation. I think she is a very personable and passionate person and has some assets in connecting to a national audience. However, for those listening abroad like me - I am not convinced that Jamaica is gonna get the best deal with her at the helm. The response on foreign affairs was a case in point. Golding is a subtle and erudite cookie and was sharp. If there was any doubts - then those who watched needed to see the reality for themselves.

She never answered the questions and seemed to go almost on a populist demagoguery that is unfortunate but I guess she was playing to her strengths. If following the display of last night - Mr Golding won it by a mile! He was articulate, robust and to time. The were moments when Portia was so short we wondered whether she had a clue. The first 20mins were a political nightmare for her team. The fact that everyone backed her leadership as an answer to one question was just fantasy!!! [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70456-eyebrows.gif[/img]

However, after 82 mins - If people have any sense they know who should be leading the country - sentiment must not come over substance.

I thought the economy was a bit wooly by Mr Golding as events can hamper growth (oil crisis/share tumble) and I think he should have been a little more modest with 4-5% growth with the hope of 7+% in good times). However, the Flip-Flop response was powerful and you even heard some applause after his response. That was the decisive moment for me in this debate.

The nicest part was at the end and what we have known Portia best for her hug and kiss.

I hope that there might be a role for Portia post her premiership as I do feel she has some qualities that will be needed but it is what role.

Bruce v Peter five years time maybe.

[Wardob]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

Frankly Bruce wasn’t at his best either, I know he is much sharper than he was last night, but what’s the heck it doesn’t take much to debate Portia. This should have been a debate between her and a JLP back bencher and Bruce and someone like Paul Robertson we would have gotten more on the issues than personality.

For those who keep telling us about him (Bruce) as a flip flapper and question is credibility due to the fact that he leaved and returns to the JLP. Does the answer satisfy you? Is it now settled? the man have answered the question over and over again never change his line, but this time I love how he pointed out some PNP leaders as flip floppers.

As Tuff would say……..” Time Cum”

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

Those of us who supported Portia's elevation to the leadership of the PNP and by extension Prime Minister of Jamaica, must not be afraid to lose face and admit that we were wrong. I freely admit now that I was wrong.

I listened and watched the debate very carefully last night and I was aghast at her very limited grasp of the issues and challenges that Jamaica faces. It is not enough to repeat populist mantra about how "mamaa loves the people and the people love her" in response to the serious questions on how to address corruption and waste in government and how best to finance the health care needs of Jamaica's children. Saying that she spoke to her health care minister and her finance minister and they found some money is not a serious answer to the question about how to finance health care and it left me shaking my head. It was truly cringe worthy.I just loved how the interviewer promptly redirected the question right back at her and said that it was not a satisfactory answer coming from the PM of Jamaica.

Bruce was on point and delivered the goods...he commanded and understood the facts which is a prerequisite before one can even start to prescribe solutions to serious problems. You may not have agreed with all his answers but at least you understood what the heck he was saying. Its not so much that Bruce destroyed Portia in the debate, it was more a case that Portia destroyed herself. She is a nice lady who I would probably enjoy playing a round of dominoes with, drinking a beer and downing some curry goat. She would probably make a great cultural ambassador or something along those lines, but as PM she does not have the requisite goods. Don't hold your breath though that last night's debate will change anything because in JA style seems to always trump substance. IMHO after looking long and hard Portia really has neither. The spin doctors will be out in full force spinning and spinning.

I guess neither the issues nor intelligently responding to questions about governance matter as long as "mamaa loves the people and the people love her".

[Wardob]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

I guess neither the issues nor intelligently responding to questions about governance matter as long as "mamaa loves the people and the people love her"….. SmoothOperator

And another opinion from my good brethren, who got part of it right
“It’s not skill that gets anyone elected nor brains nor moral position, it's the financial and political backing of the two parties in power that gets people elected.” ……Johnny

You both forget one vital part the formula for wining; the part as it is written by our residential expert, that is the party with the bigger liars always wins, as you see my friend “you have to lie to win and honest people don’t lie“ Thus by the prescription given here for wining the JLP have been loosing and will continue to loose, as the prescription given here call for lying to win so the JLP is paying the penalty for been too honest… wow…….. Another 5 yrs of Portia and the liars……. We are doomed

As Tuff would say …” TIME CUM”

[Q3210]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

The fate of Jamaica lies on an electorate that can think like the topic starter, papaD and smooth operator who is now finally convinced that the chickens have come home to roost.

Wardob, our vulnerability lies very much as you said it and the populist non issues that the common man and too many that think with such limitations tend to in Jamaica today.

Talk about charisma. Who said that Mother Portia has any?
If charisma is about hugs and kisses, then yes she has it.
However, charisma goes a lot deeper than what she has as charm.

[Q3210]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly Bruce wasn’t at his best either, I know he is much sharper than he was last night, but what’s the heck it doesn’t take much to debate Portia. This should have been a debate between her and a JLP back bencher and Bruce and someone like Paul Robertson we would have gotten more on the issues than personality.

For those who keep telling us about him (Bruce) as a flip flapper and question is credibility due to the fact that he leaved and returns to the JLP. Does the answer satisfy you? Is it now settled? the man have answered the question over and over again never change his line, but this time I love how he pointed out some PNP leaders as flip floppers.

As Tuff would say……..” Time Cum”
</div></div>

The debate was indeed an embarassment. I had thought from last week that the PNP would save face and send in some flimsy excuse that she Portia could not attend the debate.
She actually turned up and went to reveal in all truth just how much in shambles our nation is in and how much worst off we are with such an eeediat as leader.

[remo]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

I did'nt see or hear the debate but by all account it was a disaster.....does losing the debate badly means she's incapable
of making sound judgement as prime minister?
george bush has proven you dont have to be einstein to govern

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did'nt see or hear the debate but by all account it was a disaster.....does losing the debate badly means she's incapable
of making sound judgement as prime minister?
george bush has proven you dont have to be einstein to govern </div></div>
Iremember stating on these same pages that PMrs Simpson was not th ebest leader for the PNP,and also commented that the provate sector would not support her candidacy.
Of cource my friend Mr Wardub castigated me for making the latter statement. Heya as usual I am castigated for my pronouncements and it has proven true as usual. I still don't think that loosing the debate will seal her fate though.
the difference is that she has good intentions,while those who are behing Mr Goldings push or power does not inm my opinion.
I just hope the best for the country willbe the result.
Since neither good intentions or bad intentions are ever a guarantee of achieving ones goaa.

[Q3210]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr.Dudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did'nt see or hear the debate but by all account it was a disaster.....does losing the debate badly means she's incapable
of making sound judgement as prime minister?
george bush has proven you dont have to be einstein to govern </div></div>
Iremember stating on these same pages that PMrs Simpson was not th ebest leader for the PNP,and also commented that the provate sector would not support her candidacy.
Of cource my friend Mr Wardub castigated me for making the latter statement. Heya as usual I am castigated for my pronouncements and it has proven true as usual. I still don't think that loosing the debate will seal her fate though.
the difference is that she has good intentions,while those who are behing Mr Goldings push or power does not inm my opinion.
I just hope the best for the country willbe the result.
Since neither good intentions or bad intentions are ever a guarantee of achieving ones goaa. </div></div>

Why would any one let alone the private sector support her who not only you who see her as unfit to lead?

No matter her good intentions that is not a catalyst or base for good leadership.
It matters whether she has the brain and the clout to manage the denizens around her who are mostly political opportunists on a feeding band wagon.
Hence her inability to tap and rap corrupt ministers like baby paulwell. Hence her inability to come across to the nation with information on matters of interest like where she plans to fund the free health services for kids under 18 when asked.

[Wardob]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

Loosing the debate does not make her incapable; she was incapable before and remains incapable after the debate and will for the rest of her life. I didn’t say that, I have read no where the private sector say that ,she was said to be incapable by her own, PJ Patterson a KD said it publicly and who knows how many are saying it privately.
Comrade wake up, love your party but, stop spewing nonsense, Dr. I am surprise at you, you are an economist, I presume you have listened to or read some of what she is saying , don’t tell me you believe she understand what she was given to read, the good lady is just out of her league.
If she could not manage an important Ministry as Tourism, how in the world she is going to manage the financial affairs of the Country.
But comrades since you believe she is capable, and PJ, KD and WB don’t, why not enlighten us to her capability

“I check with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Health they told me they have the money to grant free Health Care”,… She check with OMAR, Omar Davis who told us that he will tell any lie, go to any extreme, spend what he don’t have to win an election, how dumb she think we are?

As a Jamaican I will hold my tongue with regards to the George Bush comparison.

Dr, I did no such thing, what I did was to question your anti-private sector stand. I also noted that the Private sector cannot perform in a vacuum; Government must be in partnership for them to grow and grow the society. Government cannot be antagonistic to the private sector and expect growth and performance, and that’s the behavior of this Government which Portia have been a part of for many years.

I know you get upset when asked for proof, but for this time and this time only I will ask, where is the proof that the private sector is not supporting her candidacy? Or what made you came to that conclusion?
When you do please include why should they support a leader who does not understand the Office she holds, one who believe she and she alone is the Government and the Government is hers? Tell us also where is her plan for the private sector to grow? and what you as a part of the private sector will or should do in absence of any such plan.

So she has good intention and Bruce has bad intention, another prescription for wining, vote the liars and good intention…. oh boy…so we had “Follow the Man with the Plan” Better Must Come” “Power to the people” A Black Man Time Now” and now “Good Intention” …. We are doomed… doomed… doomed

Dr. I am surprise at you, giving this lady basket to carry water, you know beta du beta


What did Tuff said …“TIME CUM”

[Q3210]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

Dr, Dudd reminds me of a combination of Garnett Roper and Lammy Brown all in one.

[Wardob]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?


Am I reading right, are you saying although George Bush is no Einstein he has been or is making sound judgment and presides over an exceptionally well run Government? Therefore Portia need not worry she is in good company?
Is that what you are saying? Please tell me I am not reading you correctly. Comrade wake up, you are fast asleep.
However I am certain George Bush and the entire Republican Party will thank you for recognizing how sound his judgments and how perfect his governance is.

By the way does his great ability to Govern and make sound judgments includes his time as Governor of Texas?

Anyway as a Jamaican I hope for an early meeting between him and Jamaica’s “Mada” Portia Simpson-Miller to coordinate and prove to the world, their ability to make sound judgments and Govern.

WOW…. We are doomed, doomed, doomed……….Boy Tuff…….fi real “TIME CUM”

Dr. is cool man, a fool im a fool wi

[Morpheous]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

I can't see the sense of a televised debate between politicians "as an event" except to amuse their loyal followers. What real people want to see are results on the ground that make a difference not who can run off dem mout the best on a soap box; then pat each other on the back in private and say... well done, you almost got me there that time...

[img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70400-talktohand.gif[/img] pon all a dem

[remo]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Am I reading right, are you saying although George Bush is no Einstein he has been or is making sound judgment and presides over an exceptionally well run Government? Therefore Portia need not worry she is in good company?
Is that what you are saying? Please tell me I am not reading you correctly. Comrade wake up, you are fast asleep.
However I am certain George Bush and the entire Republican Party will thank you for recognizing how sound his judgments and how perfect his governance is.

By the way does his great ability to Govern and make sound judgments includes his time as Governor of Texas?

Anyway as a Jamaican I hope for an early meeting between him and Jamaica’s “Mada” Portia Simpson-Miller to coordinate and prove to the world, their ability to make sound judgments and Govern.

WOW…. We are doomed, doomed, doomed……….Boy Tuff…….fi real “TIME CUM”

Dr. is cool man, a fool im a fool wi
</div></div>
You got all of that from what I said?
Because Portia is not a sharp debater and clearly was'nt prepared does not mean she should dismissed completely the life of the party does not revolve solely around around her...the party has many capable members of which she is one
She is a veteran politian and very capable leader notwithstanding the debate debacle

lest we forget she has been leader for quite a few months now

I know you are happy because your boy did well in the debate
so should we crown him Prime Minister right away?

Go ahead have your fun ... us comrade will have the last laugh

[papaD]

Re: Portia V Bruce Debate - The Portia Experiment Over?

Remo

I think you have some fair comment in the latter part of your reply. I am not sure this thing is over until it is over. Those hugs and kisses are not for nothing and are a potent political weapon as well as personal asset for the defending PM.

It was interesting what Dawn Ritch (I know some are not favourable to her writings) wrote whilst on the Portia campaign trail in I think yesterdays Gleaner on Line. Getting on the ground beyond the big rallies might be where the election is won and loss. This is where some things might be missed under the radar.

Anyway, a week is a long time in politics and I am still not too sure where it's all headed.

Election Predictor - 5 seats either way. Though I am happy to be wrong [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70392-silly.gif[/img]

I do not think this is done or dusted just yet though on the face of it momentum seems with the JLP.

However, there will need to be substantive swings from last election and the PNP may have stuff in the tank.

I haven't yet seen the killer punch. See the article in Jamaica Elections 2007 website about those on the ground about how they view the debates. It is interesting reading.