Under Seige

[chubble]

Re: Under Seige

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes there is political violence on both sides, but the PNP has been particularly heavy handed in this regard. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>
Spoken like a true labourite........Show some proof of this statement</div></div>

Are the Green bay,Gold street and tower street massacres the Propaganda of Ciaga and the CIA or did the PNP really carry them out?

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Under Seige

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chubble</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes there is political violence on both sides, but the PNP has been particularly heavy handed in this regard. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>
Spoken like a true labourite........Show some proof of this statement</div></div>

Are the Green bay,Gold street and tower street massacres the Propaganda of Ciaga and the CIA or did the PNP really carry them out? </div></div>
Was green bay and Gold Street murders carried out by the PNP or BY security forces?

[chubble]

Re: Under Seige

Is the security force an instrument of the gorvernment?
which party was in control of the government?
Which party supporters were massacred?
What reasons would the security forces have to murder JLP supporters?

After you asnwer these questions, I want you to give the conclusion you have come to.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Under Seige

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chubble</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is the security force an instrument of the gorvernment?
which party was in control of the government?
Which party supporters were massacred?
What reasons would the security forces have to murder JLP supporters?

After you asnwer these questions, I want you to give the conclusion you have come to.
</div></div>
So since government have control of the security forces,Why do they try members of the force for infractions instead of the government?
The government is incharge of the policy not the strategy. The government cannot make decisions as to who,when and and where the security forces acts.
The government only have influence on the how.
Policy deals with th ehow. The strategy deals with th ewho, when, where and why
Otherwise the JLP could not wil the 80's election,because it was the police that was incharge of transporting the balllots to counting centers,and overnight security. If the government had all tha power over them, they could order them to stuff the boxes with bogus ballots too and fraudulently win the election.

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Under Seige

Remo wrote:

'Spoken like a true labourite........Show some proof of this statement'.

Crime and violence is the legacy of the PNP. People talk about garrisons but do you know that PNP garrisons out number JLP 3 to 1. Under the PNP's watch Jamaica has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Even when they don't endorse and solicit it, they turn a blind eye. The day of their comeuppance draws nigh.

[Q3210]

Re: Under Seige

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one need worry bout a ting.
The JLP is going to win the election and they'll fix everything.
Right?

I just can't believe this kind of wishful thinking based on nothing.

I wish we could all jump ahead a year just to see how unfounded those hopes for change under a JLP government turn out to be.

No I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist. </div></div>

No one knows what it will be but we must have faith, we must believe that not only the weight lies on the backs of the Govt. in power but on those of us who are subjected to that power. Each of us must rally and be responsible and not throw our hands in the air in exasperation and distrust.

[remo]

Re: Under Seige

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Remo wrote:

'Spoken like a true labourite........Show some proof of this statement'.

Crime and violence is the legacy of the PNP. People talk about garrisons but do you know that PNP garrisons out number JLP 3 to 1. Under the PNP's watch Jamaica has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Even when they don't endorse and solicit it, they turn a blind eye. The day of their comeuppance draws nigh.
</div></div>


Whats that old saying ..dont count your chickens before they hatch.......19 % of jamaicans are still undecided they might still be able to pull a defeat right out the jaws of victory

[evanovitch]

We have bigger guns - But cops say they can manage

We have bigger guns - But cops say they can manage


Gunmen from several sections of the island are boasting that their fire power is far superior to that of the police and that they can challenge the lawmen at anytime they choose to.
But the police remain confident that their fire power can stand up to any challenge.

These thugs, from various volatile communities, said they had an arsenal that many police officers only hear about, but have never seen. They revealed that many of their machines can puzzle lawmen should they get a hold of them.

"When police a forward, dem go all out enuh and dem nah plan fi carry in nobody, so we haffi mek sure wi gun dem heavier dan fi dem own suh wi can hol' dem off," one thug from East Kingston explained.
Another West Kingston thug said, "Yu nuh need nobady fi teach yu dat. Ask anybody weh live inna nuh garrison ... When we a beat corn an' police come, everybody know, cause our machine dem sound different."

Paul Robinson, assistant commissioner of police in charge of firearms and coastal security admitted that some very powerful firearms were in the hand of criminals. "There are some weapons out there that are fiercely powerful. These weapons use ammunition that is able to even go through a human being's body and kill with ease," he said.

Local police officers use .38 revolvers, 9mm and M-16 rifles.

THE WEEKEND STAR found that the dominant choice of weapons which the thugs claim are more powerful than police weaponry are AK-47 assault rifles, but they also possess a host of 9mm pistols such as the Glock, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, Bryco, Ruger, Sig-Sauer and Taurus.

Higher class of weapons

However, it is not the aspect of handguns in which criminals claim superiority, but in the class of rifles.

"Yu done know wi haffi have di handgun dem, but police have di same handgun dem, so a really when yu talk 'bout rifle now, a deh so we beat dem," said one thug from St. Elizabeth.

A policeman explained that while M-16 rifles are more accurate, the AK-47 rifles are slightly more powerful. He said criminals chose the AK-47 rifle because of it's ability to fire under adverse conditions.

"Whether it be to bury it or any creative way which they can devise to conceal the weapon, criminals can hide an AK-47 for years and not worry about it malfunctioning whenever they go back for it. It's that reliable," the officer said.

But criminals also claim to be in possession of even more powerful firearms which they claim is only utilised in times of 'emergency'.

"Yu think a 'K' (AK-47) alone wi have? Wi have a ting roun' ya weh wi only bus when a serious times, when wi cyaa do nuh betta. Mi not even kno' di propa name," Blacksfrom Spanish Town said.

Men from two other communities in Kingston and one from Montego Bay also talked about the 'emergency weapons'.

"Mi not even know di real name fi da machine deh, a nickname wi haffi gi it. Wi call it all sort a name, since recent wi call it di gully creature," one revealed.

Residents from these communities testified to the criminals possession of such weapons, and even questioned their use.

"A nuh some play-play ting dat eno. Wen dat buss all di street light dem get dim, a dem weapon deh man really want fi use pon mankind?" one resident from Kingston asked.

ACP Robinson explained that any criminal with a firearm is an hindrance to the police as all firearms can be lethal. He said all firearms are dangerous and obstruct the duties of the police.

"All firearms are lethal and when in the wrong hands it can create some serious trouble for the brave men and women who try to protect our country," the ACP said.

*Names changed on request

[evanovitch]

Re: We have bigger guns - But cops say they can manage

Gunmen attack Tavern Avenue in alleged political reprisal
Friday, 31 August 2007
RJR Jamaica

Residents of Tavern Avenue in Eastern St. Andrew are seemingly paying a high price for the attack on a Jamaica Labour Party convoy on Wednesday night.

Gunmen struck in the community Friday morning fire bombing two houses and a car.

Other houses were shot up and set ablaze.

The residents are convinced that these houses at number 23 Tavern Avenue were fire-bombed in reprisal for the shooting up of a convoy carrying the JLP candidate for Eastern St. Andrew, Dr. St. Aubyn Bartlett.

They say the gunmen struck in the wee hours.

The question being asked by members of this community is why would anyone from an area that fully supports the JLP want to shoot up one of its motorcades?

The residents say number 23 was unfairly labelled as the house where the shots were fired from.

[Wardob]

Re: Jamaica among countries with highest rape rates in the world

Cannot say much but lets just say this. The Bar belong to a JLP PC,a good friend of mine and I was at the there 20 minutes after the crime. You want proof? hang, on wait few more days,the police will get the culprits
nuff said.......

Check out wht as happen in Mandeville just 1 hr ago. and listen to Mutty about the plot. Peter Bunting promise war and I am sorry for the people of Mandeville.

Here is what I know also, your comrades are doing everything to disrupt this election but, the JLP will not loose focus. The leader Bruce Golding the next PM of Jamaica, made that clear. Jamaica now see who are carrying out these attacks and will take vengance on your party at the poles.

TIME CUM........ HAIL TUFFY.....

[Wardob]

Re: Under Seige

No one knowes what it will be? Come on Q, you and I are here we see and know whats happening. Remo is going by what he read and as usual he is always dead wrong.
Remo I will address the rest of nonsense you wrote when I get a break and clean off my foot after kicking your bunch of corrupt, murders sociaist from office

Tuffy, hold tite....

[johnnycakes]

Re: Under Seige

Q3210 posted:
"No one knows what it will be but we must have faith, we must believe that not only the weight lies on the backs of the Govt. in power but on those of us who are subjected to that power. Each of us must rally and be responsible and not throw our hands in the air in exasperation and distrust."

Q3210,
Why must we have faith when there is nothing upon which to base that faith given the non-performance of the two parties since independence?

You must also always bear in mind that the PNP and the JLP choose those people for whom you get to vote.
Those politricicians owe nothing to the voter and everything to the party whose policies they must follow or they'll soon be out of the party and out of the government.

Given the totalitarian nature of the electoral system, there is really nothing you or any Jamaican can do to make the government do what YOU want.

They know they have the power and that you can do nothing but just vote them out for a while until you get fed up with their lack of performance but that after a few more years of incompetence you'll all get fooled again and vote them back in again.

The two parties take turns running things for the benefit of those who do well and you, the voters get your minute or two of "democracy" when you cast your votes for the candidates of THEIR choice.

Is this not clear?

And why play their game?

It's very like the old story of the man who told his wife he was going downtown to play cards and the wife said "Why do you play cards with them, you know they always cheat?" and the husband replied:
" Well it's the only game in town."


It's THEIR deal.
You lose.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Under Seige

[quote=SmoothOperator]The PNP has never been the type to go quietly. Just look back to 1980 and the violence that ensued when they were ousted. No doubt the flare up in violence is related to the ominous trends in the polls that show that the PNP is on its way out.

Smooth,

You are ignoring history when you blame the PNP for the gun violence during the period when Manley was in office.
It is very well known that the U.S. was destabilizing Jamaica because of Manley's association with Fidel Castro and his socialist beliefs. It was the fear of socialism which the U.S. fought for the entire Cold War and as far back as 1917 and the tactics the U.S CIA used to destabilize Jamaica mirrored the tactics used to oust Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973.
The rumors that oil and rice were being hoarded in secret warehouses by the Manley government led to real shortages as Jamaicans emptied all the shops of all the oil and rice they could get their hands on and then when Manley tried to bring in shipments of rice to alleviate the created shortage, the U.S. poisoned the shipments.

The very reliable newspaper, the Christian Science Monitor ran a story I still recall in which they told of how the CIA flew small planes loaded with guns from Opa Locka to Sangster. This only discovered because the crates of guns which the plane dropped way up the runway before landoing were spotted by an incoming passenger plane before the crates could be hauled away.

It makes no sense at all for Manley or the PNP who were in power to smuggle in guns if they controlled the police and army.

It had to be those who opposed Manley which were the USA and those inside Jamaica who were working with them.

You figure out who that could be.

The CIA records of this era are due to be released within ten years I believe and then what is already believed to be true will be out in the open and there will be a lot of embarrassed people in Jamaica.

[remo]

Re: Under Seige

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wardob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one knowes what it will be? Come on Q, you and I are here we see and know whats happening. Remo is going by what he read and as usual he is always dead wrong.
Remo I will address the rest of nonsense you wrote when I get a break and clean off my foot after kicking your bunch of corrupt, murders sociaist from office
Tuffy, hold tite.... </div></div>

What nonsense?...Yuh mean when mi concede dis election?
or when mi seh Portia nat too brite or dat the JLP might still be able to pull a defeat right out of the jaws of victory

if unno nuh win yet an unno a run up unno mouth so areddi I can just imagine wha a go gwaan when unno win

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Under Seige

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
The very reliable newspaper, the Christian Science Monitor ran a story I still recall in which they told of how the CIA flew small planes loaded with guns from Opa Locka to Sangster.

It makes no sense at all for Manley or the PNP who were in power to smuggle in guns if they controlled the police and army.

</div></div>

CIA involvement in the runup to the 1980 elections has been well documented. But your last sentence sums up my main point exactly. The police and army should not be used as political operatives for any party. Recall Green Bay. And do recall the now infamous words of then National Security Minister, Dudley Thompson...'No angels died at Greenbay'. Also, recall the state of emergency in the runup to the '80 election when politicians from the opposing side were locked away without cause.

Let there be no doubt that the PNP was up to no good during those very dark days and was flirting with the idea of overthrowing democracy as we know it. It is astounding to me that so many have forgotten that dark period in Jamaica's history and the activites that led up to it.

GreenBay Flashback:

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20060430/news/news5.html