The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

[mackone]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through

Micro enterprise is good, but it doesnt work for every country. i think it only works for countries where any development is just coming on stream.

Dr dudd, talks about much of india coming out of poverty,not due to micro enterprise but due to india's commitment to making india business friendly as well as its commitment to education.
Hence indias growing IT sector.

The fact of the matter is not everyone wants to start a business,
people want to just go and work, however if the government is not able to bring investors to build businesses, then were are those people going to find a job.


I have heard many jamaican business's say that doing business in jamaica is like pulling teeth. Jamaica is predominately anti-business....or so the previous administration made it seem.
The amount of hurdles that a business must go thru in jamaica is saddening.

I also find it odd, how everyone ignores my comments on the other caribbean countries who have acheived far more interms of their economy and social welfare/standard of living than jamaica.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through

Did you just say that I said ....... "Dr dudd, talks about much of india coming out of poverty,not due to micro enterprise but due to india's commitment to making india business friendly as well as its commitment to education.
Hence indias growing IT sector."?

I would never say any such thing unles it was true,and it
certainly is not true.

India has not come out of poverty. While India has develooped aNuclear capacity,and have a very large IT industry.

It's level of poverty is still way below anything you can find
in Jamaica.Not to mention it's per capita GDP.

Only a person who does not bother top think would expect

everybody to want to start business,because without thinking

they would not realize that business requires workers other

than those in the business.
Too many people are quick to make statements that has no relationship to reality.

Nobody is suggesting that everybody should be given business.

I was only stating the most economical method to drive the economy.

A very little known principle of of growth is that [b]economic growth starts at the bottom.

The principles that you are suggesting has been used and have failed in every instance to improve real econopmmic improvement.

Incidentally in another post I see you suggesting countries that

Jamaica should emulate.
Sir you have confirmed that you know nothing about economics other than what others suggest.

Jamaica cannot achieve the percapita GDP of Cayman,because the level of business it would have to host does not exist in the world economy.

There is this misguided belief that Cayman is wealthier than

Jamaica,so id we do what they are doing we will be just as weaslthy.
That is so far from the truth.

Cayman'Islands's percapita GDP is 10 times that of Jamaica,but it's population is only 50,000.

So Cayman's aggregate GDP=50,000 x $45,000. Now although Jamaica's aggregate GDP = 4,500 x 2,750,000.
Now calculate and compare them,and you will; see that even if

Jamaica's earning improve by what Cayman Islands earns it would only increase our percapita GDP by less than 50%. That is about $7,500.
Let me tell you somthing,I know that Jamaica has a much greater potential than that.
I am projecting a per capita GDP of at least $10,000 in 10

years, and that would be with a growth rate of less that 10% Pa.

The difference is that I am not dreaming about this,nor repeating what some paid hack writes.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

This economic model proposed by Golding strikes me as rational. But of course the nay-sayers and political hacks masquerading as 'experts' on all matters economic will try to deride it.

Look at the results of the PNP's "poverty alleviation" policies of the last 18 years; a substantial number of Jamaicans remain in abject poverty. A prominent member the PNP's left-leaning wing (and he's now been re-elected an MP) described those policies of the PNP as creating "the greatest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich since the abolition of slavery."

Of course, the 'trickle-down/top-down, growth without equity' model has failed (and I emphasize the 'growth without equity' part). However, if we're intellectually honest, the Golding proposal can not be described as growth without equity/fairness/economic and social justice, if you will. Education and health care are described as key social investments in these policies. You can disagree all you want, but the emphasis is rightly placed on wealth creation through growth and not on poverty alleviation. The thing is, with economic expansion through a more business-friendly environment, substantial foreign investments, improved infrastructure and utilities capacity, jobs will be created. The view that the jobs most likely to go to Jamaica will instead go to places with substantially lower labor costs is indicative of people who can't see beyond their noses, and is part of the mediocrity and failure of intellectual energy that that has characterized much of Jamaica's policy development framework.

The 'growth <u>with</u> equity' model proposed by Golding does not see growth and poverty alleviation as mutually exclusive. Indeed, the benefits of economic growth will accrue towards poverty alleviation. It seems to me to be sheer idiocy to speak of poverty alleviation with no real plans of growing the economy.

During the run-up to the elections, and as I tried to listen (mostly via the internet) to a lot of the debates taking place, it seems to me that Golding is most serious about addressing poverty in Jamaica through education, job creation and personal responsibility. It is up to civil society to ensure, indeed demand, that as the economy grows substantially that it is felt on the ground, so to speak. Citizens will have to play a greater participatory role in the workings of their democracy, more than just exercising their votes every five years. The opportunities for greater accountability and a deepening of the democratic process will be present under Goldings proposals on governance, and if they are given the chance to work by what seems will be an obstructionist PNP opposition.

'Growth with equity' is best model for raising the standard of living for the substantial number of Jamaicans living in poverty. To say that something has not worked - in some countries - and, therefore, will NOT work, is purely fallacious reasoning.

[mackone]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

the level of poverty in india has shrunk within the last 10 years, the level of their educated and skilled labor force has also grown significantly.

you say, i am crazy for using cayman as an example.
firstly cayman has something which jamaica doesnt and thats alot of foreign direct investment which moves alot of money in and out of their economy.

Not just some spanish hotel which builds hotels and hire low level skilled workers and expatriates much of its profit back to the mother land.


Well since cayman is such a bad example for you what about singapore, who at earlier part was modelled after jamaica.
singapore has 4.5 million people(more than jamaica) and has a GDP per capita of $30,000. (almost eight to nine times that of jamaica.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

what is your excuse or our(jamaica's) excuse going to be now.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

Mackone posted:
jonhny cakes, you cant pull the blame under capitalism and firstly would you rather
capitalism thru free entreprise, meaning me and you not mega corporations are allowed to create wealth.

Mackone,
Your sentence above is nearly incomprehensible.
But I think you mean that I cannot blame capitalism .
Capitalism is not about the individual any longer. Corporate conglomerization and globalization are what capitalism has evolved into.
These mega corporations are beyond the laws of any particular nation and the largest have more money and power than do many small countries.
The capitalism of the individual is obsolete. Sure, you can be a fish peddler or a crafstman but the macro economic sphere is run by corporations that have only corporate profit at heart and the world is suffering under this structure.



Mackone:
"or would u rather the stagnating pool of policies which socialism brings."

JC- I would rather the welfare of the poor and all the peoples of the world be attended to such is being done in Cubaand to some extent, in Venezuela. rather than lining the pockets of the already rich Don't bother talking to me about the Soviet Union, China, the DRK or the other Stalinist dictatorships. I never have referenced them as models to follow and, in fact, find them nearly as abhorrent as capitalist dictatorships under which we live in the U.S., Jamaica and elsewhere.
The Cuban model which incorporates the necessary democracy with the egalitarian socialism is nothing like the old line Moscow-oriented regimes that called themselves socialist.

Mackone posted :
what is the debt of jamaica now (?) 6 billion US dollars owed to our foreign counterparts, all these in order to buy out people buy giving away houses and financing projects with contractors who benefit from massive cost overruns.while our dollars and national airline goes all the way to hell.

But i have an interesting thing for you, apparently omar davis has issued things in excess of 5 billion JMD which were not ALOTTED for in the budget.

the fact is, Ja cannot be run like a welfare patient it needs to be run like a business. And the first rule is cut waste,reduce debt and attract more investment.


JC- A succession of Jamaican governments has borrowed Jamaica into the poorhouse. They used the money for a number of things that they thought would build the (capitalist) economy and for aid to the poor and I assume a great deal of it was stolen as is the case in a great many corrupt Third World countries.
The people in the Jamaican government are interested only in maintaining their power via the twin party system and the capitalist economic system under which they and their rich sponsors have done so well.
The simple fact is that neo-liberal economic policies, the trickle-down economics that did not work even in the wealthy United States have absolutely no chance of working in a heavily indebted, resource poor Jamaica or elsewhere in the impoverished Third World.
Jamaica pays out some 65% of its money in loan repayments and shows no sign of ever getting out from under that crippling debt.
What you are proposing, what Golding is proposing are more of the same policies and schemes that haven't worked for over 47 years , are not working and more importantly, CANNOT work because neo-liberal capitalism DOES NOT WORK in poor countries.

Yes, you can point to Singapore Barbados, St Kitts and a very few exceptions to this but poverty still exists even in those countries and poverty is horrendous in the rest of the Third World of which Jamaica is a part.


Mackone:
Why would i an educated individual who has read up on the histories of many failed socialist states, want to go back to that regime of hand out frenzy.

JC: You'd rather stick with regimes that keep the poor, poor and keep making the rich richer? Then do so and Jamaica will continue as it has for the past 47 years into the indefinite future only with increasing violence and increasing poverty as the population grows.
You cannot reasonably keep trying the same thing and expect different results.
Einstein called that stupidity.
What makes you think that trying the same things again will work this time ?
I wish someone would explain the reasoning behind that kind of thinking to me without saying things like "Well you must have faith" or "Golding is different from all the others" when there is nothing there in which to have faithand the JLP manifesto might just as well have been a wish list sent to Santa Claus .




Mackone:
And i keep saying it jonhnnycakes, for someone who sees capitalism as being a bad thing, your in a country which has benefitted from it(capitalism) big time and is the envy of the world.

JC- Yes but I realize that the U.S is an economic empire which has long looted and is looting the Third World . To some the U.S may well be enviable for the wealth it possesses but to an ever increasing number of people around the worl, the U.S is the cause of much of the world's misery and justly detested for that.

Mackone:
Capitalism only becomes a problem when there is little or no regulators/legislations to make sure corporate greed doesnt jeopordise the interests of the country. example much of africa vs CANADA,singapore, and much of the europian world.

JC:
You're not up to date on globalization or you would never have posted the paragraph above. The capitalist world is engaged in a race to the bottom. Companies are moving willy-nilly to those countries where wages are the lowest and forcing other countries like Mexico and Jamaica to lower the wages of their already underpaid workers to compete. In many cases plants just close because they cannot compete with 50 cent a day wages in China. The mega corporations do not care a whit for the economic distress they cause any country when they pack up and leave or pay below subsistence level wages to the people they hire and a country like Jamaica can do absolutely NOTHING when they pack up and leave or mistreat the workers who are so desparate for work that they will accept being treated as slaves.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mackone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the level of poverty in india has shrunk within the last 10 years, the level of their educated and skilled labor force has also grown significantly.

you say, i am crazy for using cayman as an example.
firstly cayman has something which jamaica doesnt and thats alot of foreign direct investment which moves alot of money in and out of their economy.

Not just some spanish hotel which builds hotels and hire low level skilled workers and expatriates much of its profit back to the mother land.


Well since cayman is such a bad example for you what about singapore, who at earlier part was modelled after jamaica.
singapore has 4.5 million people(more than jamaica) and has a GDP per capita of $30,000. (almost eight to nine times that of jamaica.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore

what is your excuse or our(jamaica's) excuse going to be now.




</div></div>
What percentage of it's GDP does it earn from the US Naval base that serves the far east??.
With a land mass of the size of St cathrine and no annual national disasters,and ofcourse a facist dictator that rules by decree,it would take a lot of changes to adopt their way of life.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyoll_73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This economic model proposed by Golding strikes me as rational. But of course the nay-sayers and political hacks masquerading as 'experts' on all matters economic will try to deride it.

Look at the results of the PNP's "poverty alleviation" policies of the last 18 years; a substantial number of Jamaicans remain in abject poverty. A prominent member the PNP's left-leaning wing (and he's now been re-elected an MP) described those policies of the PNP as creating "the greatest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich since the abolition of slavery."

Of course, the 'trickle-down/top-down, growth without equity' model has failed (and I emphasize the 'growth without equity' part). However, if we're intellectually honest, the Golding proposal can not be described as growth without equity/fairness/economic and social justice, if you will. Education and health care are described as key social investments in these policies. You can disagree all you want, but the emphasis is rightly placed on wealth creation through growth and not on poverty alleviation. The thing is, with economic expansion through a more business-friendly environment, substantial foreign investments, improved infrastructure and utilities capacity, jobs will be created. The view that the jobs most likely to go to Jamaica will instead go to places with substantially lower labor costs is indicative of people who can't see beyond their noses, and is part of the mediocrity and failure of intellectual energy that that has characterized much of Jamaica's policy development framework.

The 'growth <u>with</u> equity' model proposed by Golding does not see growth and poverty alleviation as mutually exclusive. Indeed, the benefits of economic growth will accrue towards poverty alleviation. It seems to me to be sheer idiocy to speak of poverty alleviation with no real plans of growing the economy.

During the run-up to the elections, and as I tried to listen (mostly via the internet) to a lot of the debates taking place, it seems to me that Golding is most serious about addressing poverty in Jamaica through education, job creation and personal responsibility. It is up to civil society to ensure, indeed demand, that as the economy grows substantially that it is felt on the ground, so to speak. Citizens will have to play a greater participatory role in the workings of their democracy, more than just exercising their votes every five years. The opportunities for greater accountability and a deepening of the democratic process will be present under Goldings proposals on governance, and if they are given the chance to work by what seems will be an obstructionist PNP opposition.

'Growth with equity' is best model for raising the standard of living for the substantial number of Jamaicans living in poverty. To say that something has not worked - in some countries - and, therefore, will NOT work, is purely fallacious reasoning.

</div></div>
Come on DyoLL,you know that there is never any equity in trickle down economics. Trickle down economics is based on th eauticratic system of management. It attempt to replicate a military style system. All aoders comes from above and they know what th epeople should have,not what the people think they should.
It never work. as a matter of fact,it was never intended to work. Iy is only a ruse to prove that th epeople are worth less, so as to justify coontinued mistreatting them by keeping them out of the economic pie.
Trickle down econommics is a misnomer. There is no economic principle to support lt. It is a ruse to fool the uninitiated,while they run with the economic pie to their foreign lands.
Then they leave the politicians who they put in power and use for their own benefit to take the blame.
Morgans the pirates.
And yes Mr Golding stated that What he as about was not poverty aleviation,but wealth building.
Ig he had said that he would go beyond poverty aleviation,but he said is plan is against it.
Well We can build any amount of wealth in this here Island of ours,but it is the poverty that is the greatest obstacle to economic growth.
Something drastic and real have to be done about. and not invioting some screw driver operation that cannot pay livable wage either. it just will not work.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

I see you're framing the discussion in terms of 'trickle-down' economics. I am speaking here of a model of 'growth with equity.' I see no reason why it can't work if allowed to do so. As I said before, it is civil society that has to demand that it works, through the appropriate safeguards, policies and systems of accountability. The citizenry, especially those who have been marginalized for far too long, have to demand that they share in the fruits of any substantial economic expansion. And it can be done - without firing a bullet.

How do you deal with poverty? I suggest you create jobs providing livable wages, not just low skilled jobs for waiters on the north coast, simultaneously addressing education: ensure that education is accessible - free education to a certain level would be most appropriate; ensure that people are trained in skills that match the skilled jobs that Jamaica would like to attract - jobs that can offer people real prospects for upward mobility. Free health care for those most vulnerable should be a priority. Through various initiatives, deal with the issue of personal responsibility. I know politicians avoid this; this is definitely not a vote-getter. It is a fact that not all poverty is caused by 'the system' but it is caused, to some extent, by the choices that some people made. And where people aren't able to move out of the shanty towns due to their inability to afford a home elsewhere, money should be devoted to providing housing solutions to those people. I'm in favor of the government providing the economic conditions whereby one can afford to buy his own home, instead of a government directly providing homes, but I strongly believe that the state should always find the means to assist those who are most vulnerable - the least of among us, so to speak.

Now where will the money come from to do these wonderful social programs which I support. You can borrow, you can raise taxes, or you can growth the economy through investments and efficiency. Micro enterprise is simply inadequate to address poverty on a large scale. In that regard, the only rational model is the one proposed by Golding. What other choice is there?

[johnnycakes]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

Dyoll posted:
"Now where will the money come from to do these wonderful social programs which I support. You can borrow, you can raise taxes, or you can growth the economy through investments and efficiency. Micro enterprise is simply inadequate to address poverty on a large scale. In that regard, the only rational model is the one proposed by Golding.

And ended his post with:

What other choice is there?


To which I reply: You'd better start looking for another choice because all of the things you've mentioned have been tried and of course cannot and do not work within a capitalist economic system and especially in a very heavily indebted poor country.
P.M. Golding's plans are high sounding and have the very best of intentions but if history and the worsening effects of globalization are any indications they have as much chance as a snowball in Hell.

Your proposals Dyoll have too many "ifs" that make them unworkable
"If you had a civil society,
if that civil society demanded that these plans work,
if those in control would share , if you could create jobs with living wages,
if you could provide free education (and if it would not take a generation for the effects of that frre education to have any effect),
if the government could afford to supply free healthcare to the neediest,
if people would stop making the wrong choices that make them poor (like being born in a poor country with limited upward mobility),
if people could all move to better neighborhoods,
if the government could provide the economic conditions so that Jamaicans could buy their own home,
If the state would only take care of the neediest.
If only there were the money.


If only my aunt had testicles she could be my uncle.

Where is the reality in all this?j

[Dyoll_73]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

Is that your best retort?

Such dismissive attitude is to be expected from you. Anything short of full-scale socialism (whatever that is) is unworkable for you. You are so far removed from reality, that a rational discussion on politics and economics is practically impossible with you. Intellectual honesty is always a pre-condition in a discussion involving people of opposing viewpoints, but in that regard, you are seriously lacking.

Your infantile embrace of socialialism as the panacea for the worlds problems seriously reduces the force of any otherwise intelligent thing you might have to say.

[johnnycakes]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

Well Dyoll,
As soon as you can come up with something that feeds, houses, educates, provides medical, dental and mental healthcare and a safe country in which to raise a family
or anything close in reforming the unreformable totalitarian democracy and failed capitalist economy, you can be dismissive of the ideas I espouse.
To think that party politics and capitalism can do anything other than what it has done to Jamaica nd the rest of the Third World is certainly not realistic is it?

[Morpheous]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Q3210</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seaga has retired to pasture, to the UWI faculty at Mona to be truthful.</div></div>

So him place himself whe him can ketch di next generation of scholars fi carry on him handy works. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

Politrixians a tell yuh. Whey him nuh just find a nice golf club ova flarida and guh cool out. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gif[/img]

[Blackstar*]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look at this as the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching a man how to fish. Poverty alleviation is not a long term strategy for fighting poverty and all the problems that go along with. The people need to be put to work, so what government needs to do is to create an environment that is highly business friendly. That would include providing basic infrastructure such as well maintained roads, reliable electric supply and an efficient regulatory framework so that if you are an entrepreneur you can get your business registered in days rather than in weeks.</div></div>
Why the opposition between the two? The most successful economies like Germany, Nordic countries, etc. actually used both poverty alleviation and wealth creation in the early 20th century to make their nations among the richest in the world.

Having the poor build the infrastructure thereby giving them jobs is just one way of killing two birds with one stone. People may have to learn the skills on the job, it will take longer to put this in place, but everyone does benefit at the end of the day.

In general (not saying JA does this), developing countries hire foreign contractors to build their infrastructure, creating resentment among the local population.

Though there is this thing about the Chinese bringing their own workers to JA...

[johnnycakes]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackStar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look at this as the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching a man how to fish. Poverty alleviation is not a long term strategy for fighting poverty and all the problems that go along with. The people need to be put to work, so what government needs to do is to create an environment that is highly business friendly. That would include providing basic infrastructure such as well maintained roads, reliable electric supply and an efficient regulatory framework so that if you are an entrepreneur you can get your business registered in days rather than in weeks.</div></div>
Why the opposition between the two? The most successful economies like Germany, Nordic countries, etc. actually used both poverty alleviation and wealth creation in the early 20th century to make their nations among the richest in the world.

Having the poor build the infrastructure thereby giving them jobs is just one way of killing two birds with one stone. People may have to learn the skills on the job, it will take longer to put this in place, but everyone does benefit at the end of the day.

In general (not saying JA does this), developing countries hire foreign contractors to build their infrastructure, creating resentment among the local population.

Though there is this thing about the Chinese bringing their own workers to JA... </div></div>



There seems to be a great deal of difficulty in accepting the fact that the top-down economic form (capitalism) which has private profits as its motivation and in particular the neo-liberal form which became popular in the past 25 years or so
DOES NOT WORK IN IMPOVERISHED THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES.
In fact, it makes conditions worse.

The fact is that half the world, primarily in the Third World, barely exists on $1-2.00 dollars a day.
This is not despite the great economic development possible under capitalism it is because that economic development benefits only the top 5% a great deal and perhaps another 20% to the point they can be called middle class.


You cannot compare the First (highly developed) World to the Third World especially when the economic system that so enriches those countries are the very ones that impoverish the rest of the world.


In the richer countries there is plenty of wealth to go around and thus in those countries and despite the inequal distribution of wealth under capitalism there is relatively little dire poverty. And these countries also make a lot of money from investments in the Third World that is, from looting the poor.

In the poorer countries there would be enough to go around were capitalism not the economic form that is used to distribute the goods and services. There the handful of rich live lives of luxury while tens of millions die beecause they lack that $1-2.00 dollars a dy necessary to keep them alive.

So PLEASE, stop talking about how the poor countries can be built up under capitalist economic systems.
Without an economic system that places human need before the profit motive you are talking about continued death-dealing poverty.

Ask yourself the same question I have always asked the friends of capitalism:
Where in the Third World has it worked aside from anomalies like Singapore and small islands like Barbados?

Please stop talking foolishness that gives false hope to the poor who are dying by the millions.

[markus]

Re: The expected JLP economic model:Wealth creation through grow

I honestly think Bruce has the right approach.
Having said that though, we should all recognize that it is not going to be easy.

Change requires lots of tough decisions and 'unsual' ones too.
The now opposition PNP is promising that they will not ease up the JLP either (some good and bad to that)

It is left to be seen how the new JLP government will be able to handle the challenges government brings along with the criticisms that will be hurled on them.

--
Still 'big in' up my country at http://www.my-island-jamaica.com