Hunger In Jamaica?

[MarieK]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_Yuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JM - I just saw ont he news (the Jamaican News) a few days ago - flour going up again for the 4th time this year. Now it'll be $2000 for a bag.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jamaica Miss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sad thing is that here in Jamaica the price of flour and rice is slated to increase. These are the staples for the poor. And as stated above, the price of gas goes up, the price of cabs also go up. The people have no choice but to pay or walk. </div></div> </div></div>

2000 wah??????????????????? how much fi wan dalla an how much inna di bag? Mi rawce.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because you two are hopelessly married to that failed system is enough reason for me to persist in bringing the comparison to this forum.
You cannot close your eyes to reality. </div></div>

As usual the personal attacks.
Well if you are going to hold up a decrepit failed economy as the utopia, then let me remind you that there are better political economies for instance Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Japan, etc.
No one is saying that you cannot point out other examples but certainly not a failed economy and certainly you cannot willy-nilly discount success that Jamaica had under the rebuilding efforts of the JLP...you can but it is dishonest and you can close your eyes to reality.

[RichD]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mrs. MarieK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yuri_Yuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JM - I just saw ont he news (the Jamaican News) a few days ago - flour going up again for the 4th time this year. Now it'll be $2000 for a bag.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jamaica Miss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sad thing is that here in Jamaica the price of flour and rice is slated to increase. These are the staples for the poor. And as stated above, the price of gas goes up, the price of cabs also go up. The people have no choice but to pay or walk. </div></div> </div></div>

2000 wah??????????????????? how much fi wan dalla an how much inna di bag? Mi rawce.

</div></div>

a bag is a hundred weight if i recall correctly ...112 pounds.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=johnnycakes]Just because you two are hopelessly married to that failed system is enough reason for me to persist in bringing the comparison to this forum.
You cannot close your eyes to reality. </div></div>

As usual the personal attacks.
Well if you are going to hold up a decrepit failed economy as the utopia, then let me remind you that there are better political economies for instance Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Japan, etc.
No one is saying that you cannot point out other examples but certainly not a failed economy and certainly you cannot willy-nilly discount success that Jamaica had under the rebuilding efforts of the JLP...you can but it is dishonest and you can close your eyes to reality.


Tuff Gong,
It is not a personal attack to say that you are married to the Jamaican political system and thus the economic system that it supports. That is fact.
And it is unfair to compare Switzerland, Sweden etc with any Third World country.
No Third World country can or will reach the economic status of these First World-highly developed countries.
You're talking apples and oranges.

TO deal with reality you must compare Jamaica to another Third World or developing nation.
With very few exceptions in micro-economies like Singapore and Barbados , no heavily -indebted under-developed country has climbed out of debt and neo-colonial poverty utilizing the neo-liberal economics that Golding is planning and that all previous JLP and PNP administrations have tried.

Sure the JLP has made some advances, some improvements but Jamaican society is growing more violent, as in the rest of the capitalist world the gap between rich and poor is growing and there is no sign that Jamaica or the rest of the Third World will get much better. 1-2% growth won't do it. Oil prices and globalization will further hurt poor countries like Jamaica and there are no answers in the failed policies of the JLP and the PNP which, while they have their differences are both married to neo-liberal/ top-down and failed economics.

If the JLP is rebuilding Jamaica or has done so in the past, the benefits were obviously so evanescent, so temporary that they might well have done nothing.

Are Jamaicans better off than they were in 1980? I don't think so.
And blaming it all on the PNP is just foolishness.
IMO the JLP is just as powerless to effect change and it will not take long for the new government to show this to be true or false.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

In that case Socialism and Capitalism failed in Jamaica so we already have all the examples we need.
[/quote]

Tuff Gong,
I hope you are not trying to tell me that under Manley Jamaica had a socialist economy.
He might have tried a few social programs and a few government takeovers of industry but to say that Jamaica tried socialism is patently untrue.

Cuba is socialist. There is very little private enterprise. Manley's Jamaica was overwhelmingly capitalist with a few socialist programs.

Is this not so?

[johnnycakes]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

Just to show how dishonest your argument is when you seek to Low-Jack the posts on this Board. You disregard the information from the collapse of the Soviet Union but you include the JLP in Jamaica's destructive years under the PNP of the last 18 years.
It shows how dishonest you are.
[/quote]

No Tuff Going,

All I am saying that to me there is so little difference in how Jamaica has fared under both JLP and PNP that it matters not that the PNP has been in power for 18 years.

If the PNP was and is so inferior to the JLP under which you claim Jamaica made such great advances, how is it that in the recent election the margin of victory was so small?
Are you one of the few who were able to see just how competent the JLP is ?

If people thought that the PNP was as inept as you think they were (and I don't disagree) how is it that the JLP did not win in a landslide?

IMO, the Jamaican people like those in the U.S. see that there is not much difference between the two choices they have but they feel that a change is needed but just barely.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

Great! Cuba does it with massive subsidies it does not feed itself on its own power. Cuba is one of the few countries that operate in a vacuum of what exists in the known world so it cannot in my estimation be held up as any example for Jamaica.
You conveniently overlooked the fact that Jamaica went down that road previously and worse under a PNP led Government.

Tuff Going,
Massive subsidies? From whom? It is getting a good deal on oil from Venzuela in exchange for doctors and teachers but that is a quid pro quo deal.
Cuba's economy is growing at twice or more of the rate of Jamaica's economy and this is with an economic war being waged against Cuba by the United States.

Cuba takes care of all its people. Jamaica, a richer country with higher per capita incomes cannot. The difference is that Cuba has an economy that shares what the country has on an equitable basis and Jamaica has a competitive economic form in which those at the top do well and those at the bottom live in poverty and deprivation.

Jamaica N-E-V-E-R had a socialist economy. NEVER.
It had a capitalist economy with some socialist programs similar in some respects to the Scandinavian social democracies but lacking the wealth to perform anywhere near the level of Norway or Sweden.
In Jamaica which is relatively poor, to achieve universal healthcare, pre-school to graduate school free education and all the other things available in a poor socialist country like Cuba, you'd have to have a completely shared economy that is, a strict socialist economy such as Cuba has.

Manley made only incremental moves toward what Cuba has before he was removed from office.

You cannot honestly say that Jamaica has experienced/tried socialism.
It would take a violent revolution with the backing of a majority of Jamaicans and the removal to Florida of the anti-socialists when the fight was over to make socialism work in Jamaica.
You cannot have half socialism and half capitalism UNLESS you are a rich and highly developed country.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In that case Socialism and Capitalism failed in Jamaica so we already have all the examples we need.
</div></div>

Tuff Gong,
I hope you are not trying to tell me that under Manley Jamaica had a socialist economy.[/quote]

I am not trying to tell you that, that what we had according to the PNP Led Government and their backers.
So based on what Mr. Comrade Leader and the Government said I accept that we were under Socialism.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuff Gong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=johnnycakes]Just because you two are hopelessly married to that failed system is enough reason for me to persist in bringing the comparison to this forum.
You cannot close your eyes to reality. </div></div>

As usual the personal attacks.
Well if you are going to hold up a decrepit failed economy as the utopia, then let me remind you that there are better political economies for instance Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Japan, etc.
No one is saying that you cannot point out other examples but certainly not a failed economy and certainly you cannot willy-nilly discount success that Jamaica had under the rebuilding efforts of the JLP...you can but it is dishonest and you can close your eyes to reality.


Tuff Gong,
It is not a personal attack to say that you are married to the Jamaican political system and thus the economic system that it supports. That is fact.
And it is unfair to compare Switzerland, Sweden etc with any Third World country.
No Third World country can or will reach the economic status of these First World-highly developed countries.
You're talking apples and oranges. </div></div>
You are talking arrant nonsense. Singapore, Bermuda, Monaco, Cayman Islands, Barbados, Antigua, etc

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to show how dishonest your argument is when you seek to Low-Jack the posts on this Board. You disregard the information from the collapse of the Soviet Union but you include the JLP in Jamaica's destructive years under the PNP of the last 18 years.
It shows how dishonest you are.
</div></div>

No Tuff Going,

All I am saying that to me there is so little difference in how Jamaica has fared under both JLP and PNP that it matters not that the PNP has been in power for 18 years. [/quote]

Again more nonsense, the last time the economy grew and expanded it was under a JLP Administration. That is a fact, it does not matter what you think, the figures are there, I lived there.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great! Cuba does it with massive subsidies it does not feed itself on its own power. Cuba is one of the few countries that operate in a vacuum of what exists in the known world so it cannot in my estimation be held up as any example for Jamaica.
You conveniently overlooked the fact that Jamaica went down that road previously and worse under a PNP led Government.

Tuff Going,
Massive subsidies? From whom? It is getting a good deal on oil from Venzuela in exchange for doctors and teachers but that is a quid pro quo deal.
Cuba's economy is growing at twice or more of the rate of Jamaica's economy and this is with an economic war being waged against Cuba by the United States.

Cuba takes care of all its people. Jamaica, a richer country with higher per capita incomes cannot. The difference is that Cuba has an economy that shares what the country has on an equitable basis and Jamaica has a competitive economic form in which those at the top do well and those at the bottom live in poverty and deprivation.

Jamaica N-E-V-E-R had a socialist economy. NEVER.
It had a capitalist economy with some socialist programs similar in some respects to the Scandinavian social democracies but lacking the wealth to perform anywhere near the level of Norway or Sweden.
In Jamaica which is relatively poor, to achieve universal healthcare, pre-school to graduate school free education and all the other things available in a poor socialist country like Cuba, you'd have to have a completely shared economy that is, a strict socialist economy such as Cuba has.

Manley made only incremental moves toward what Cuba has before he was removed from office.

You cannot honestly say that Jamaica has experienced/tried socialism.
It would take a violent revolution with the backing of a majority of Jamaicans and the removal to Florida of the anti-socialists when the fight was over to make socialism work in Jamaica.
You cannot have half socialism and half capitalism UNLESS you are a rich and highly developed country. </div></div>

More nonsense Jamaica had Free Health Care, Free Education right up to the 80s. So when it is convenient for you argument you find Jamaica richer than Cuba, when you want to say Jamaica will never get past first base you claim we are not as rich as Sweden, Norway, etc.

Look Johnny Singapore is a good measure, which is my argument, every time from now you introduce Cuba as an example I will just simply point to Singapore.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

Tuff Going,

You posted:
"As usual the personal attacks.
Well if you are going to hold up a decrepit failed economy as the utopia, then let me remind you that there are better political economies for instance Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Japan, etc.
No one is saying that you cannot point out other examples but certainly not a failed economy and certainly you cannot willy-nilly discount success that Jamaica had under the rebuilding efforts of the JLP...you can but it is dishonest and you can close your eyes to reality."


Tuffy,
I had been thinking about what you posted above that Cuba is a "decrepit failed economy" and today Googled " up some facts.

From 1990 to 2005 Jamaica had a 0.2 GDP growth rate.
From 1990-2001 Cuba had a 3.70 GDP growth rate

2002 Jamaica 0.8% Cuba 1%
2003 Jamaica 1.5 % (which was the regional average) Cuba 2.67
2004 Jamaica 1.9% Cuba 4.0%
2005 Jamaica 1.4% Cuba 8.5%
2006 Jamaica 2.8% Cuba 11.10

Cuba's GDP was well above the regional average for any of the capitalist countries and Cuba achieved this under the U.S. embargo which is estimated to have cost Cuba some 80 billion dollars over the years AND without any subsidies from the old Soviet bloc nations.

If Cuba's socialist economy is a "decrepit failure" then how do you define Jamaica's neo-liberal and neo-colonial capitalist economy?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Going,

You posted:
"As usual the personal attacks.
Well if you are going to hold up a decrepit failed economy as the utopia, then let me remind you that there are better political economies for instance Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Japan, etc.
No one is saying that you cannot point out other examples but certainly not a failed economy and certainly you cannot willy-nilly discount success that Jamaica had under the rebuilding efforts of the JLP...you can but it is dishonest and you can close your eyes to reality."


Tuffy,
I had been thinking about what you posted above that Cuba is a "decrepit failed economy" and today Googled " up some facts.

From 1990 to 2005 Jamaica had a 0.2 GDP growth rate.
From 1990-2001 Cuba had a 3.70 GDP growth rate

2002 Jamaica 0.8% Cuba 1%
2003 Jamaica 1.5 % (which was the regional average) Cuba 2.67
2004 Jamaica 1.9% Cuba 4.0%
2005 Jamaica 1.4% Cuba 8.5%
2006 Jamaica 2.8% Cuba 11.10

Cuba's GDP was well above the regional average for any of the capitalist countries and Cuba achieved this under the U.S. embargo which is estimated to have cost Cuba some 80 billion dollars over the years AND without any subsidies from the old Soviet bloc nations.

If Cuba's socialist economy is a "decrepit failure" then how do you define Jamaica's neo-liberal and neo-colonial capitalist economy?







</div></div>

Again you only read what you want or possible can't read at all...have you not read what I have written about the Jamaican economy in nearly 10 years?
Many times I have drawn the exact parallel in the growth of the Cuban Economy vis-à-vis the Jamaican Economy.... you are joke!

[johnnycakes]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

Tuff Going , in response to my posting of the comparison of Cuba's GDP growth which dwarfs Jamaica's and the rest of the capitalist region to counter your claim that Cuba's socialist economy was a "decrepit failure" you responded:

"Again you only read what you want or possible can't read at all...have you noirt read what I have written about the Jamaican economy in nearly 10 years?
Many times I have drawn the exact parallel in the growth of the Cuban Economy vis-à-vis the Jamaican Economy.... you are joke!"


And you say I am a joke?
I shot your "decrepit failure" argument to small pieces and I am a joke?

You don't even have the intellectual integrity to admit that you are wrong.

I wonder how you are going to deal with the failure of the JLP in it's current incarnation.
Probably by avoiding or changing the subject or calling names as is your wont.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Hunger In Jamaica?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tuff Going , in response to my posting of the comparison of Cuba's GDP growth which dwarfs Jamaica's and the rest of the capitalist region to counter your claim that Cuba's socialist economy was a "decrepit failure" you responded:

"Again you only read what you want or possible can't read at all...have you noirt read what I have written about the Jamaican economy in nearly 10 years?
Many times I have drawn the exact parallel in the growth of the Cuban Economy vis-à-vis the Jamaican Economy.... you are joke!"


And you say I am a joke?
I shot your "decrepit failure" argument to small pieces and I am a joke?

You don't even have the intellectual integrity to admit that you are wrong.

I wonder how you are going to deal with the failure of the JLP in it's current incarnation.
Probably by avoiding or changing the subject or calling names as is your wont. </div></div>

Look Johnny, <span style="color: #FF0000">you</span> have started the name calling already.
<span style="color: #FF0000">You</span> have changed the subject already.
<span style="color: #CC0000">You</span> don't really overstand what you are Googling and cutting and basting.
Let me spell it out for <span style="color: #CC0000">you</span>.
A. First off comparing growth rates does not in any way shape or form diminish the argument that X type of political economy is preferable or Y type.
Anything can grow or depreciate from one numerical value to another.

B. It is also possible to use a bad example to point out an even worse failing.
When you are able to wrap your cranium around these two concepts then we can an intelligent discussion.

Maybe <span style='font-size: 11pt'>Global Warming</span> is not such a bad thing if one of the unintended consequences is the melting of the permafrost between your skull and your brain.