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Originally posted by Pepper
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Yes we know that but people and places evolve and my perception is that Europe has evolved faster than the USA when it comes to race relations. Contrast Nazi Germany to Germany today. You run into far more interracial marriages than in Canada and the US even though the Black population is much larger in the Americas. Everywhere you go you run into Black and Asian children and young adults with German names, German fathers and Black or Asian mothers. You hardly see that in Canada or the US....not ot the same extent....not even close. The young people have grown up and now work in the airline, hotel and fashion industries as well other industries. It is fabulous to see Black and Asian young people who are fluent in German, English, French plus at least one Asian or African language. I don't know if we will ever see this to the same extent in the Americas. -
they are just as racist ova deh as hear and manytimes even wusserah.
Who yuh tink di deh a Africa alongside de US murdering and pillaging de dyam place?
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Then how do you account for the examples that I have shared and the observations that I and others have made in Europe? Check out those websites by Black women living in Europe.Originally posted by Emperah View PostComment
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and you have never heard of the issues the black Hockey player, the Black Basketball players and the Black soccer players face?Originally posted by Tropicana View PostWhen its hot in the jungle of peace I go swimming in the ocean of love.....Comment
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it really not wut the time bass
even if yuh have allllllllllllllll the time in the world
Originally posted by RichD View PostComment
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here is an interesting commentOriginally posted by Tropicana View Post
Definitely. One reason is of course that there is much more racial diversity in the US and the UK, especially London and its surroundings, than e.g. in Germany.
I'm biracial (White/ Asian) living in Germany and out of the approximately 82million citizens there are about 15 million people "with migratory background" as Germans say - meaning people who are biracial, having one German and a foreign parent, ex foreigners or foreigners. Of these maybe two thirds aren't "nordic" in appearance and Germans actually consider everyone who isn't nordic as "nonwhite" - meaning that they would regard a relationship between Italian and German or Greek and German or Turkish and German as something like a interracial relationship, even though in a strict sense all of them are white.
Most of the people with migratory background stick to their original group as life as an interracial couple in Germany can be very difficult.
You have to face a lot of prejudices: A white woman together with a black man will often hear things like "Well, that woman was probably too ugly so that she couldn't get a white man" and the black guy will have to hear things like "Well, he's probably just wants to get his permission for staying in Germany when marrying that woman." White man + Asian woman will have to suffer similar prejudices thrown at their faces. In the seventies, when my parents were freshly married, my mother, pregnant in the seventh month, was thrown down the stairs by German women who were screaming things at her like "women like you take away our men".
So, in general it's not exactly easy for an interracial couple over here - unless they live in the bigger, more cosmopolitan cities like Berlin, Hamburg or Frankfurt. I guess that's why most of these relationships fall apart or aren't taken up from the beginning. I e.g. once had a friend who actually wanted to have a relationship with me, but then after a while explained that being stared at when walking around together is too annoying.When its hot in the jungle of peace I go swimming in the ocean of love.....Comment
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Yes and I alluded to this in my 4th comment in this thread:Originally posted by RichD View Post
As a retired soccer and hockey Mom, I have been aware of these incidents and monitoring them. When my son begged to take up hockey I in fact tried to steer him away from it and let him know what his older cousin had encountered to the point that he gave up hockey and took up tennis. My son has never complained of any racial incidents. He did have one soccer coach who was overly harsh and I was going to complain about him but my son begged me not to.Originally posted by Tropicana View Post
That is 2 coaches I need to call the league about. Him and the one who had so much liquor at this party that the underage children got drunk.
Anyway I digress. Yes I have heard of these incidents and it is confusing as, until now, I have not heard of Black women facing similar issues. Remember Josephine Baker moved to Paris as the racial climate was better and her career prospects were MUCH better than they would have been in the USA.
So, yes, my perception based on what I have read and my personal experiences has been that things are much better for Black women in Europe. You know it has just come out that Oprah also faced a similar incident in Paris. I stumbled across it. Will look for more details.
Definitely gives one food for thought.Comment
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Yes RichD, that is an interesting comment.
Now the people I have interacted with in Europe who are from interracial backgrounds have not mentioned anything like this. Mind you, a flight attendant or a hotel manager is really not in a position to discuss these issues openly and freely. Next time I go to Europe, I will definitely seek to have discussions in informal settings away from the work environment. You can't exactly ask someone who is checking you into a hotel about whether or not they are facing racial discrimination.Originally posted by RichD View Post
Mind you, when I was a teen and worked as a waitress one summer, African American customers would regularly ask to have a private discussion with me and ask me about these matters. At the time even though I was not that all that concious. (My outlook had been evolving for about a year though and by the end of the year, I definitely had read just about every book about Black politics and racial issues that I could get my hands on). I do remember saying that in Canada, people smile and they are friendly on the surface so it's hard to tell who is prejudiced and who isn't. I made it clear that sometimes you'll find out that some of the same people smiling up with you are prejudiced.
It would be interesting to hear if some of the comments of the individuals from interracial backgrounds that I meet in Europe are in line with what you shared RichD.Comment
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y cah yuh doan beeleeve sum elite blakks kno oww fe use racism fe appeal fe blakk support?Originally posted by Tropicana View Post
so itt juss wan innacent coinceedent dat wen ar movie cum out shii tart fe chatt bout oww den wood natt show ar da xxpensive packet book
wen ave oprah eva chatt bout institutional racismComment
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diss mekk mii laffOriginally posted by Tropicana View Post
look pon dem racism immigration policies fe limit de mount aff blakk peeps dat allowed ann yuh doan tink dat bout racism
plus yu a use da xxcepshan ann gawn like dat de rule inn europe. itt da same inn europe ann merikkaComment
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Originally posted by blugiant View Post
I have no way of knowing this Blu....you ave ax Oprah.
Which countries?Originally posted by blugiant View Post
I dunno....I am only telling you my perceptions based on my experiences and what I have read. My impression has been that things are much better for Black people in Europe. Is my perception accurate? I have no idea so I've started a thread to dig deeper. I hope some people who have lived in Europe or spent more time there than I have will weigh in:Originally posted by blugiant View Post
Also, I stumbled across an article about racism in the Arab World so I threw that into the mix too:
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dem is saying that Oprah is lying.Comment
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I read that Swiss Tourism apologized.
The Swiss Tourism Office has apologized for the racism that media mogul Oprah Winfrey says she encountered last month while in town for Tina Turner's wedding.Oprah told Entertainment Tonight that a shop assistant in Zurich refused to show her a handbag that was "too expensive" for one of the world's most powerful and richest women.
She told the story when asked by ET about the use of the N-word.
"Racism for me doesn't show itself that way. It still exists," she said and went on to explain what happened in the Zurich shop.
"Obviously, "The Oprah Winfrey Show" is not shown in Zurich," she told ET. "I say to the woman, "Excuse me, may I see that bag right above your head?" And she says to me, 'No, it's too expensive.' She refused to get it."
The country's tourism officials apologized for the clerk's behavior today.
"We are very sorry for what happened to her," Daniela Baer, a spokeswoman for the tourism office, told the AP today.
The tourism office also tweeted that the salesperson "acted terribly wrong" in this case.
This isn't Oprah's first bout of trouble while trying to buy a designer bag. In 2005, she was turned away in Paris at Hermes after showing up to the store 15 minutes after closing. Hermes also later apologized for the incident and "not having been able to accommodate Ms. Winfrey and her team."Last edited by Tropicana; 08-12-2013, 04:13 PM.Comment
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From 2005
Oprah and the View From Outside Hermes' Paris Door
The one thing that Oprah Winfrey and Hermes agree on is that the talk show host did not get a chance to do any early-evening shopping recently at the company's Paris store. Why she was denied an opportunity to spend her money at the expensive boutique is what has gossip columnists, radio commentators and, in particular, the Internet reverberating with a chorus of girrrrrrlllll.On June 14, Winfrey arrived at the Hermes shop at 24 Faubourg Saint-Honore. The street is well traveled by tourists and the well-to-do because of its abundance of famous designer boutiques. In the first (and untrue, both sides say) version of the incident, reported Monday in the New York Post, Hermes staff members stationed at the door failed to recognize Winfrey, as she was not in full glamour makeup with her TV hair. They denied her entry and, the gossip item claimed, told her that they have been "having a problem with North Africans lately."
The bloggers raced to their computers: "Oprah Musta Forgot She Is Black." "Oprah w/out makeup, hair done, etc. is really ugly. Seriously, I love Oprah, but what we see on TV is very different from how Oprah really looks."
"That's France for you."
On Wednesday, the New York Daily News weighed in with a different version of the story, saying Winfrey arrived just after the store had closed at 6:30 p.m. and there was no doubt about her identity. She saw shoppers still milling about inside and asked the Hermes staff at the door if she could dash in to make a quick purchase. A clerk said no, and so did a store manager. An unnamed "friend" quoted in the Daily News didn't use the term racism but suggested that if Celine Dion or Barbra Streisand had made a similar request, there wouldn't have been a problem. In this telling of the tale, the entire population of northern Africa was not maligned.
Internet postings often blended the two versions and were accompanied by outraged commentary, indignation and suggestions that Hermes start putting together an especially nice gift basket in the form of a crocodile Birkin. (The company had no comment on the subject of apologetic bouquets, jewelry or handbags.)
A spokeswoman at Winfrey's Harpo Productions confirmed the Daily News version of the story, saying that the incident was "Oprah's 'Crash' moment" -- a reference to the film in which racism unfolds in complex, subtle and surprising interactions. Winfrey also contacted Hermes' U.S. president to inform him of the incident. She plans to tell the story on her show when it returns from hiatus in September.
With the Internet painting an ever-grimmer portrait of the 168-year-old French company, Hermes issued a statement from its Paris headquarters apologizing for "not having been able to accommodate Ms. Winfrey and her team and to provide her with the service and care that Hermes strives to provide to each and every one of its customers worldwide. Hermes apologizes for any offense taken due to such circumstances."
The company also tells a slightly different version of the story. Hermes shuts its doors at 6:30, but on this particular evening the staff was preparing the store for a private event -- a presentation of ready-to-wear. As a result, there was a significant amount of activity in the boutique, which may have given the impression that shoppers were still browsing.
A Hermes spokeswoman said Winfrey arrived about 6:45, accompanied by three other people. A clerk and security guard were at the door and there was no discussion of North Africans or anyone else, according to the store's security videotape, which the company inspected after the incident. The guard explained that the store was closed. The clerk offered up her business card with an invitation for Winfrey to return the next day. The store manager, preparing for that evening's event, was not at the door.
Hermes regularly lavishes celebrities with all of the attention they have come to expect, the spokeswoman said. But Winfrey's visit was an after-hours surprise at a particularly inopportune moment.
One could argue that perhaps this was simply an example of employees not empowered to be proactive, even for a celebrity who could purchase every watch and handbag in the place and come back the next day for more. (The clerk, by the way, has not been forced to take up with an organ grinder on Boulevard Saint Germain; she remains gainfully employed.) It could be an example of a store treating a wealthy celebrity just like anyone else. It could be a case of rudeness. It could be racism. It could be a complicated blend of all that and more.
Hermes is a family-owned business that was founded as a harness shop in Paris in 1837. It is known for its luxuriously printed silk scarves and its handmade bags, namely the Birkin and the Kelly bag. It is one of fashion's most exclusive brands thanks to its high prices and its years-long Birkin waiting list that has risen to near mythic importance among high-end shoppers. The company makes little effort to reach a broad demographic. One of its silk squares retails for $320. A simple tie is $145. A basic Birkin costs about $6,000. A starter handbag is still a thousand-dollar investment.
Brands that cultivate an air of exclusivity breed paranoia, insecurity and suspicion as a byproduct. If the brand is perceived as being for a select few, there's a heightened sensitivity to the perception that the brand is not for you -- even if you happen to be extremely wealthy.
The fashion industry also is particularly ruthless about choosing its customers. Through sizing, pricing, geography and attitude, companies attempt to weed out those they don't deem representative of their image. There's a reason why so many designers steer clear of plus sizes. Fat women are not part of their fashion fantasy.
And there have been countless stories of well-known African Americans feeling snubbed. Cornel West in a three-piece suit couldn't get a cab in Manhattan. Vanessa Williams was mistaken for a waitress at a private dinner party even though she was wearing an evening gown. Condoleezza Rice -- before she became secretary of state -- reprimanded a salesgirl for showing her costume jewelry after she had requested the better pieces.
It is easy to believe that a clerk in a fancy store could be plagued by prejudices. But is it utterly naive to think she could also be indiscriminately brusque, dismissive or inflexible? The public probably will never know precisely what transpired in the case of Winfrey versus Hermes. The story has been taken over by the Internet, a forum not known for its subtlety and accuracy. (One posting had Winfrey going to Hermes to "get her hair done.")
People have argued that no matter what was going on inside the store, no matter what time it was, Winfrey -- the billionaire with millions of devoted fans who ask "How high?" when she says "Jump" -- should have been allowed to shop. It certainly would have been beneficial for the Hermes bottom line. But after-hours shopping is a favor, a perk. Not a right. There's nothing wrong with a store saying not tonight, madame, as long as the reason doesn't have anything to do with skin color. It's okay to say no to a celebrity, even when her name is Oprah.
Last edited by Tropicana; 08-12-2013, 04:02 PM.Comment
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Originally posted by Suesumba View Post
Oprah racist shopping encounter called 'misunderstanding'
Billionaire celebrity denied request to see $38K handbag by store assistant in Zurich
Oprah Winfrey says she had a racist encounter while shopping in Switzerland — and the national tourist office and the shop owner have apologized.The billionaire media mogul told the U.S. program Entertainment Tonightthat a shop assistant in Zurich refused to show her a black handbag priced at $38,000 because "you will not be able to afford that."
Forbes magazine estimates that Winfrey earned $77 million in the year ending in June.
Winfrey was in town to attend last month's wedding of her longtime pal Tina Turner, who lives in a chateau along Lake Zurich.
"We are very sorry for what happened to her, of course, because we think all of our guests and clients should be treated respectfully, in a professional way," Daniela Baer, a spokeswoman for the Swiss tourism office, told The Associated Press on Friday.
The tourism office also posted an apology on Twitter, saying "this person acted terribly wrong."
Shop owner Trudie Goetz told the BBC that an assistant had shown Winfrey several other items before the "misunderstanding" over the bag, which was kept behind a screen. The Blick newspaper quoted Goetz as saying the bag was priced at 35,000 Swiss francs, about $38,000.
She also told Blick that she was "truly sorry" because her staff are trained to treat customers well.
"I have to admit that the employee is Italian. Of course, she speaks English, but not as well as her mother tongue," Goetz was quoted as saying. "It was a real misunderstanding."
Winfrey was involved in another retail rebuff in Paris in 2005, when she was turned away from a Hermes boutique 15 minutes after closing time. The store said it was closed for a private public relations event.
A Hermes executive appeared on her talk show to apologize for the "rigid and rude" behaviour of the employee. Winfrey complimented Hermes on its handling of the incident — including sensitivity training for employees — and urged viewers to continue to buy the company's products.
Last edited by Tropicana; 08-12-2013, 04:07 PM.Comment
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