US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

[SmoothOperator]

Well I thought the Vaz case would be straightforward because Vaz acquired his citizenship through his mother which does not require one to go through the naturalization process but apparently it is not quite so simple. I suspect now that this can of worms is open a whole lot of dual holders in JA will be left scurrying like Danville Walker and other people who hold government positions. I wonder what this will all mean for the millions in the diaspora in US,Canada,Europe who may feel that a court ruling may strip them of their rights and whether they will feel "less" inclined to participate in building and giving back to the country.

----------------------------------------------------

American law expert George Crimarco said under cross-examination yesterday that the possession of a United States passport was proof of allegiance to that country.

Questioned by attorney-at-law Jalil Dabdoub, as to whether the word 'duties' on the American passport form refers to an applicant's duties of allegiance, Crimarco said he was not prepared to answer that question.

Crimarco said on Thursday that Jamaica Labour Party Member of Parliament Daryl Vaz did not have to live in the United States from age 14 to 26 to retain his U.S. citizenship.

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20080105/lead/lead3.html

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Quote: Questioned by attorney-at-law Jalil Dabdoub, as to whether the word 'duties' on the American passport form refers to an applicant's duties of allegiance, Crimarco said he was not prepared to answer that question.
What does thu stell the juriors?
That he as a witness that swears to tell the truth,the whoke truth and nothing but the truth decides not to tell about that question? It look like it will be goung to th eprivi council.

[Magician]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Cho!
Nuff ppl deh bout (me included) have more than one passport. And only caw you hold a passport nuh mean seh yuh hold allegiance to nobody.

If a man want serve (one of) him country then why dem ago gi him trouble. That kinda thinking proculde good people from holding public office due to no fault of their own.

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

What a bunch a foolish game playing.

It actually IS quite straight forward.

Whether or not the guy acquired US Cit via his parents or not, once he became/becomes a US Cit, the US of A requires that he - that anyone who becomes a US Cit via any means - to take an allegiance to the USA.

It is the JA govt that needs to decide how they want to handle someone who has dual citizenship. Not just with the US, but with the UK, Ca and any other country.

(sheesh - such stupid game playing)

[bee_bop]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Mr Darryl Vaz is one of those Jamaicans who went to Campion College from around 1975 to about 1978, or 1979. He left Jamaica during the so-called 'Exodus', of Bob Marley fame, then he returned there before 1980, or sometime near there, if I remember correctly.
So he is very familiar with Jamaica, and its politics, and apparently, someone who couldn't stay away (like a lot of Jamaicans). Chances are, with all the brouhaha surrounding his political legitimacy, the U.S. government may make the decision for him the next time he arrives in the U.S., unless they have use for him...

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cho!
Nuff ppl deh bout (me included) have more than one passport. And only caw you hold a passport nuh mean seh yuh hold allegiance to nobody.

If a man want serve (one of) him country then why dem ago gi him trouble. That kinda thinking proculde good people from holding public office due to no fault of their own. </div></div>
Probably because it is the law??

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

What do you mean?

Can you site what US law he is breaking?

As long as he's not taken up arms in a foreign military, committed treason, or a few other choice no no's, he has little to fear from the US govt re losing his citizenship.

(Careful - see Afroyim v. Rusk)


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Littleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Chances are, with all the brouhaha surrounding his political legitimacy, the U.S. government may make the decision for him the next time he arrives in the U.S., unless they have use for him... </div></div>

[SandiF]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

My thoughts as well...

Is it that Jamaica has no law on Jamaican citizens holding dual-citizen and running for public office in the country?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YuriYuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a bunch a foolish game playing.

It actually IS quite straight forward.

Whether or not the guy acquired US Cit via his parents or not, once he became/becomes a US Cit, the US of A requires that he - that anyone who becomes a US Cit via any means - to take an allegiance to the USA.

It is the JA govt that needs to decide how they want to handle someone who has dual citizenship. Not just with the US, but with the UK, Ca and any other country.

(sheesh - such stupid game playing)

</div></div>

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

Prizackli SandiF - it's all foolishness and none of these officials and politicians are being honest about their motives. (nothing new there)

There are several issues at play here and their dancing around the most critical one:

- what is JA's policy, or what will be or should be, JA's policy on its citizens with dual citizenships?

- whether a JA Cit has dual citizenship ... irrelevant, because there's nothing illegal about it.

- Did the JA Cit swear allegiance to another country when gaining that 2nd citizenship ... irrelevant because there's nothing illegal about THAT either. (not yet anyway) [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/eek2.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

If the govt has a problem or concern with these matters, that's all well and good and indeed, they should be addressed. BUT - these are totally different issues from the question at hand now that they're arguing about.

However - what should the law BE for those with dual who want run for certain political offices?

Obviously this issue has cropped and it seems like no one had previously thought it all the way thru!


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SandiF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My thoughts as well...

Is it that Jamaica has no law on Jamaican citizens holding dual-citizen and running for public office in the country?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YuriYuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a bunch a foolish game playing.

It actually IS quite straight forward.

Whether or not the guy acquired US Cit via his parents or not, once he became/becomes a US Cit, the US of A requires that he - that anyone who becomes a US Cit via any means - to take an allegiance to the USA.

It is the JA govt that needs to decide how they want to handle someone who has dual citizenship. Not just with the US, but with the UK, Ca and any other country.

(sheesh - such stupid game playing)

</div></div> </div></div>

[SmoothOperator]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YuriYuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a bunch a foolish game playing.

It actually IS quite straight forward.

Whether or not the guy acquired US Cit via his parents or not, once he became/becomes a US Cit, the US of A requires that he - that anyone who becomes a US Cit via any means - to take an allegiance to the USA.

It is the JA govt that needs to decide how they want to handle someone who has dual citizenship. Not just with the US, but with the UK, Ca and any other country.

(sheesh - such stupid game playing)

</div></div>

Actually it is not that straight forward. A child born to a US citizen outside of the US does not have to take the US Oath of allegiance, and is by virtue of being born to US parents a US citizen once the registration process takes place. The issue in Jamaican law as relates to MPs is one of being under allegiance to a foreign country "by virtue of ones own act". That would almost certainly exclude Jamaican migrants who go through the US naturalization process but I'm not so sure it would exclude children of parents with dual Jamaican/US citizenship since they acquire their citizenship involuntarily.

In any event JA law is extremely bizarre on the matter because as I understand it citizens of the Commonwealth, say Barbados or Trinidad, who are not Jamaican but are resident in Jamaica for at least one year can hold public office in JA including office of the prime minister. Go figure!

[Yuriatin]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

I'm aware that a child born to a US citizen outside of the US does not have to physically hold up their hand and swear before a USCIS judge or agent to take the US Oath of allegiance.

That's not the point I'm addressing or taking issue with.

However - I can assure you, once you become a US Citizen - by whatever process you attain that citizenship, you have accepted allegence to the the United States of America.

There are NOT 2 classes of US Citizenship.

The title of this thread is indeed, correct.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YuriYuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a bunch a foolish game playing.

It actually IS quite straight forward.

Whether or not the guy acquired US Cit via his parents or not, once he became/becomes a US Cit, the US of A requires that he - that anyone who becomes a US Cit via any means - to take an allegiance to the USA.

It is the JA govt that needs to decide how they want to handle someone who has dual citizenship. Not just with the US, but with the UK, Ca and any other country.

(sheesh - such stupid game playing)

</div></div>

Actually it is not that straight forward. A child born to a US citizen outside of the US does not have to take the US Oath of allegiance, and is by virtue of being born to US parents a US citizen once the registration process takes place. The issue in Jamaican law as relates to MPs is one of being under allegiance to a foreign country "by virtue of ones own act". That would almost certainly exclude Jamaican migrants who go through the US naturalization process but I'm not so sure it would exclude children of parents with dual Jamaican/US citizenship since they acquire their citizenship involuntarily.

In any event JA law is extremely bizarre on the matter because as I understand it citizens of the Commonwealth, say Barbados or Trinidad, who are not Jamaican but are resident in Jamaica for at least one year can hold public office in JA including office of the prime minister. Go figure! </div></div>

[evanovitch]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I thought the Vaz case would be straightforward because Vaz acquired his citizenship through his mother which does not require one to go through the naturalization process but apparently it is not quite so simple. I suspect now that this can of worms is open a whole lot of dual holders in JA will be left scurrying like Danville Walker and other people who hold government positions. I wonder what this will all mean for the millions in the diaspora in US,Canada,Europe who may feel that a court ruling may strip them of their rights and whether they will feel "less" inclined to participate in building and giving back to the country.

----------------------------------------------------

American law expert George Crimarco said under cross-examination yesterday that the possession of a United States passport was proof of allegiance to that country.

Questioned by attorney-at-law Jalil Dabdoub, as to whether the word 'duties' on the American passport form refers to an applicant's duties of allegiance, Crimarco said he was not prepared to answer that question.

Crimarco said on Thursday that Jamaica Labour Party Member of Parliament Daryl Vaz did not have to live in the United States from age 14 to 26 to retain his U.S. citizenship.

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/glean...ead/lead3.html </div></div>

and yet so many Americans go jail fi espionage ....bwoy, dem people a yaad so simple sometimes and di wus ting is dat dem expek people fi believe dem fawt...

i have never read such [censored] in mi life

[SmoothOperator]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YuriYuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm aware that a child born to a US citizen outside of the US does not have to physically hold up their hand and swear before a USCIS judge or agent to take the US Oath of allegiance.

That's not the point I'm addressing or taking issue with.

However - I can assure you, once you become a US Citizen - by whatever process you attain that citizenship, you have accepted allegence to the the United States of America.

There are NOT 2 classes of US Citizenship.

The title of this thread is indeed, correct.
</div></div>

I agree with what you wrote that whatever the process birth or naturalization a US citizen would be under allegiance to the US. But Jamaican law does not say that persons who hold dual citizenship cannot hold public office. It seems to specifically exclude only those who acquire citizenship in another country "by virtue of their own act". That is why the Vaz/Dabdoub case is not a simple open and shut case since Mr Vaz got his citizenship not through naturalization, which is voluntary, but through his mother who is a US citizen.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YuriYuri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm aware that a child born to a US citizen outside of the US does not have to physically hold up their hand and swear before a USCIS judge or agent to take the US Oath of allegiance.

That's not the point I'm addressing or taking issue with.

However - I can assure you, once you become a US Citizen - by whatever process you attain that citizenship, you have accepted allegence to the the United States of America.

There are NOT 2 classes of US Citizenship.

The title of this thread is indeed, correct.
</div></div>

I agree with what you wrote that whatever the process birth or naturalization a US citizen would be under allegiance to the US. But Jamaican law does not say that persons who hold dual citizenship cannot hold public office. It seems to specifically exclude only those who acquire citizenship in another country "by virtue of their own act". That is why the Vaz/Dabdoub case is not a simple open and shut case since Mr Vaz got his citizenship not through naturalization, which is voluntary, but through his mother who is a US citizen. </div></div> What is in question in the law here is not the aquisition or inheriting of citizenship. But the question of allegiance. The argument being put forward here is the act of aquisition of a US passport,requires one to, as incsribed in the document states that you have done so and you are required to sign acceding to it.
Is he suggesting that he did not mean it when he signed,anf if he did not,why should his word to the court be accepted,if his signed agreement as evident in the document is not?. He probably do not mean anything he tekks the court too??
Or does he?

[evanovitch]

Re: US Passport Proof Of Allegiance ?

if the question of allegiance is of such import, who does the GG swear allegiance to...matta of fact, being a constitutional monarchy , who di pm an all dem people who tek office really ha allegiance to...if we gwine to go by semantics, dem is all di queen's people....gr britain dem pledge allegiance to and if GB an Ja interests conflict, who , technically dem pledge allegiance to...cho...