"Small Island" book discussion

[Nunya]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

oh yeah, mi figet fi say in addition to the 'cha, nah, man' I couldn't stand everbady reference to dem 'mummy' ugh [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70400-talktohand.gif[/img]

That did not ring true for me...

[mountaingal]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

since when preference trump availability, specially inna dem country parts whipawt michael and hortense come from? cha.

nunya, you don't say flippin heck on this board at the rate at which Queenie said "blinking" in the book - TRUST me on that.

[mountaingal]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nunya</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was more than one poop met??? ~lol~
</div></div>
hortense tep ova poop when she a leff Queenie front door first time, or was going to it, or whatever.

[CeaBee]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> did not ring true for me </div></div>

This sums up my opinion of the entire book...

[Nunya]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

Do you think she (Andrea levy) or the book would've been better served if she'd visited Jamaica other than the once (before the book was done) and spoken to people who were living there and had a better memory of how it was? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

[mountaingal]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nunya</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you think she (Andrea levy) or the book would've been better served if she'd visited Jamaica other than the once (before the book was done) and spoken to people who were living there and had a better memory of how it was? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img] </div></div>

it sounds to me like Andrea Levy grew up hearing ole time Jamaicans in England talking about their experience, and felt that she had enough to go on. maybe if she had done what you suggested, Nunya, it may have worked, but I don't know how many people would be alive to talk about that and give a good enough sense of how things were.

To me, there were other things she could have done - like maybe not have any settings in Jamaica at all during those year. Or maybe read some contemporary accounts - i dunno, or Banana Bottom by Claude McKay, or even Garvey's autobiography, because I think Garvey's childhood and teenage years, though they would have been set a little before the Small Island time period, may have given a more accurate flavour of country life in Jamaica in those years.

[Nunya]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

I recall an interview where she did state that most of the fibre for her work are taken from the stories of her parents, who incidentally, migrated to England in 1948 - the same year Hortense and Gilbert did. Her father first, her mother following shortly thereafter.

She however stressed that Small Island was in no way autobiographical (though a first novel of hers was semi such).

It was said that writers should only write what they know. Ofcourse if writers did only that, we would've been seriously deprived.

I figure the stories told her to her were so real - she felt they didn't need much more authentication. I think she thought she was writing what she knows. I mean, when you check out her reading material aka research books for Small Island, you'll see that most were about the war. She put more research into England 1948 than into Jamaica 1947 and before...

[mountaingal]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nunya</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> She put more research into England 1948 than into Jamaica 1947 and before... </div></div>
and it shows, and i'm very annoyed by that. I wonder if she's even read George Lamming's In the Castle of My Skin, which, granted, is set in Barbados, but would I think have given her some insights that would have enriched the Jamaica settings in Small Island. Although I can understand if she wouldn't want to read another author's work to keep her own story safe from influence.

Or maybe Morris Cargill articles...

[evanovitch]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mountaingal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was gonna go back and read the early days of Hortense's youth, but mi could not badda. my general impressions of this book:

1. it did not convey effectively to me the pre-war era in Jamaica with the telling of Gilbert's and Hortense's stories, as it did for England with the telling of Queenie's story. did Hortense grow up in a rural area? what were the signs of the social distinctions in the general community that contributed to the Anderson's and therefore HOrtense's social aspirations? If Hortense had a black grandmother in her life everyday, what did that grandmother's love and affection do for her character. and by the way, mi never buy the thing bout the Grandmother having to call her own grandpickney Miss Hortense in public - not whipart mi come from.


funny but i had grown people call me Miss from mi a likkle pickney....it happens in Jamaica....an truss me, country relatives or even poorer Jamaicans called dem well to do relatives visiting, Ms an Mr...been dere, heard dat
2. Whameck Michael never try a ting wid Hortense?

because the social divide as set out by his parents neva afforded it...not during di time him was home

3. it was implausible to me that Michael affair wid di white teacher woman only buss after di husband ketch dem - in a Jamaican community di suss woulda been going on for long. And it was implausible to me that Hortense, a young woman with a certain sense of her self socially would squeeze into a chicken coop fi deal wid har broken heart.

&lt;he never had an affair...he had some sex....an u forget that the community was not defined...everyone was kotching....dont u see the analogy of her action....an why not into a chicken coop....the best of families in longago Jamaica had a chicken coop...solitude was the aim of her action...sybolic that she 'roosted' ...she folded her hurt wings and roosted

4. mi neva like the various poop metaphors in the book - for example Gilbert seeing a piece of jewellery on the ground in England and finding out it was a fly encrusted piece of doggie do - the metaphor was unnecessarily disgusting.

but effective...the streets were not lined wid di proverbial gold but with filth....stark contrast to wat was read of the supposed civilised British of the books Gilbert etc were raised on
5. mi find it implausible dat Gilbert work as a partner fi a white guy weh get sick and when dem try assign him a new white partner, a den di big racial scene occur - how him get di job in di first place and managed to survive so long at it if all dat racism was there?

so u neva work wid a white smaddy weh wi tolerate u but buck up pon one who wontsaid way Queenie had boarders while her neighbours would not
6. Queenie said the word "blinking" at least twice per page for about 6 chapters (or that's what if felt like). I started to wonder at the author's lack of imagination or the editor's lack of skill, caw nuff time that word could have been left out without any effect whatsoever on the intensity of the dialogue.

again u miss the intent of showing how base the reality was as opposed to the ideal Hortense sought and thought was there...the cockneys r notorious for adding words like dat to dem speech

7. the night after she slept with michael, queenie found his wallet that he had left behind, and proceeded to describe the contents this way:"There were photographs in its tattered inside. One of an old negro man standing formally in front of a house. Looking to all the world like a chimpanzee in clothes, this lord of the manor stood behind a seated black woman with white hair and a face as grumpy as Monday morning. Another was of a little darkie girl with fuzzy-wuzzy hair tied in ribbons as big as bandages." i got confused. is Queenie a racist? why she had to describe the man as looking like a chimp? if these are her usual thoughts, is she feeling revulsion at having slept with michael?

and that was my problem throughout this whole damn book - I could not get a fix on each person's character to the point where I could feel this person was real to me.

Queenie is human...she describes drawing on words of her socialization but acts on her own thinking as it affords her at the time she makes the decision

Hence, my difficulties, as I stated earlier, trying to understand Hortense and how she got her notions of how British people were when she was living in Jamaica. Was it from the teachers at the teaching school, the nuns with their aura of superiority? did she admire those nuns? I don't know.
hortense saw whites in jamaica commanding respect for no other reason than their skin colour...that is wat the book brings into focus....admiration in the sense that she wanted to be somebody and they were the somebodies of her reality....juss like how har fambily expected har to have a diffrant life tru she had likkle white eena har skin, so she grew to view that the skin afforded a certain way of life....hence har total shack wen she a speak di Queen's English wid har big words an di people no undastan multisyllable words...
Gilbert, again, someone I know from the way he reacts to the racism in England and elsewhere, not someone I could say I know to the core, or ended up caring very much about.

Queenie - well, i did not appreciate that she got to sleep with a black man before Hortense did, and Hortense did married to one. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70400-talktohand.gif[/img]

mi neva like dis book, have to say.
</div></div>

the book was well crafted for a first effort...the literary content is quite remarkable for a first effort IMO ...

[Nunya]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion


It wasn't a first effort. This was prolly her 3rd or 4th book. Not to detract from her accomplishment...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eva</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hence har total shack wen she a speak di Queen's English wid har big words an di people no undastan multisyllable words... </div></div>

Ah, but mi wonda how much of dem she harself did understan???? She was more focused on pronouncing de words like de BBC announcers i.e saying prihvihcy insteada pryvaycy than actually adding new words to her vocab.

Ah mean, she get a glowing recommendation from her headmaster and she had to look up whe 'proficient' mean??? ~lol~

[evanovitch]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nunya</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It wasn't a first effort. This was prolly her 3rd or 4th book. Not to detract from her accomplishment...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eva</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hence har total shack wen she a speak di Queen's English wid har big words an di people no undastan multisyllable words... </div></div>

Ah, but mi wonda how much of dem she harself did understan???? She was more focused on pronouncing de words like de BBC announcers i.e saying prihvihcy insteada pryvaycy than actually adding new words to her vocab.

Ah mean, she get a glowing recommendation from her headmaster and she had to look up whe 'proficient' mean??? ~lol~
</div></div>

an in that u read the author's thoughts on that sort of thinking...the irony of it...the humour, sad, but still humour of the thinking....an it is not farfetched....people liked Peter Jennings for his pseudo British accent...made him more senatorial and believable wen him read di news....an dat is here in AMerica...in Ja our anchors did infact have veddy acute accents....the country of origin was up in dispute,but di accents were dere non di less

[mountaingal]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mountaingal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was gonna go back and read the early days of Hortense's youth, but mi could not badda. my general impressions of this book:

1. it did not convey effectively to me the pre-war era in Jamaica with the telling of Gilbert's and Hortense's stories, as it did for England with the telling of Queenie's story. did Hortense grow up in a rural area? what were the signs of the social distinctions in the general community that contributed to the Anderson's and therefore HOrtense's social aspirations? If Hortense had a black grandmother in her life everyday, what did that grandmother's love and affection do for her character. and by the way, mi never buy the thing bout the Grandmother having to call her own grandpickney Miss Hortense in public - not whipart mi come from.


funny but i had grown people call me Miss from mi a likkle pickney....it happens in Jamaica....an truss me, country relatives or even poorer Jamaicans called dem well to do relatives visiting, Ms an Mr...been dere, heard dat
MI NEVA HEAR SMADDY OWNA GRANNY A CALL DEM MISS DIS AN DAT.

2. Whameck Michael never try a ting wid Hortense?

because the social divide as set out by his parents neva afforded it...not during di time him was home
IF THE SOCIAL DIVIDE PLACED MICHAEL ON A HIGHER PLANE THAN HORTENSE, WHICH I THINK IT TRIED TO DO, THEN FOR SURE HE WOULD HAVE TRIED IT WITH HER - NOBLESSE OBLIGE, OR THE SIMULATION OF IT.

3. it was implausible to me that Michael affair wid di white teacher woman only buss after di husband ketch dem - in a Jamaican community di suss woulda been going on for long. And it was implausible to me that Hortense, a young woman with a certain sense of her self socially would squeeze into a chicken coop fi deal wid har broken heart.

&lt;he never had an affair...he had some sex....an u forget that the community was not defined...everyone was kotching....dont u see the analogy of her action....an why not into a chicken coop....the best of families in longago Jamaica had a chicken coop...solitude was the aim of her action...sybolic that she 'roosted' ...she folded her hurt wings and roosted NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY AN UNDEFINED COMMUNITY, BUT INNA FIMMI DISTRICT IF ONE BOY SEH HOWDY TO ONE GIRL EVERYBADDY KNOW AND RUMOR START FLY. WHEN MICHAEL GET KETCH WID DI OOMAN A NAIN DI FUSS TIME DEM DIDDA DO IT, AT LEAST, MI NEVA GET DAT IMPRESSION. AS FI DI CHICKEN COOP ANALOGY, WELL, I'LL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT BUT TO ME IT WAS UNNECESSARILY INCOGRUOUS AS A VENUE FOR AN EMOTIONAL REACTION.

4. mi neva like the various poop metaphors in the book - for example Gilbert seeing a piece of jewellery on the ground in England and finding out it was a fly encrusted piece of doggie do - the metaphor was unnecessarily disgusting.

but effective...the streets were not lined wid di proverbial gold but with filth....stark contrast to wat was read of the supposed civilised British of the books Gilbert etc were raised on I SUPPOSE. DAT MEK SENSE. BUT MI DID TEK SET GAINST DI BOOK FROM EARLY SO ALL DIS NEVER IMPRESS MI.

5. mi find it implausible dat Gilbert work as a partner fi a white guy weh get sick and when dem try assign him a new white partner, a den di big racial scene occur - how him get di job in di first place and managed to survive so long at it if all dat racism was there?

so u neva work wid a white smaddy weh wi tolerate u but buck up pon one who wontsaid way Queenie had boarders while her neighbours would not VANNIE, DI REPLACEMENT DRIVER NAIN KNOW SEH GILBERT DIDDA WORK DEH AND WAIN DI EDDA GUY PARTNER? A SO BIG DI COMPANY WAS DIS FACT ESCAPE HIM AND SO IS WHEN IM BUCK UP GILBERT ON DI FUSS MAWNING DEM SUPPOSE TO DRIVE TOGEDDA IM DECIDE TO REBEL, AND DI WHOLE COMPANY JOIN IN DI RACIST INCIDENT? I CAN UNDERSTAND THE AUTHOR'S NEED TO CREATE DRAMA AND SHE DOES DESCRIBE THEM WELL, BUT THE WAY SHE SET THEM UP... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70400-talktohand.gif[/img]
6. Queenie said the word "blinking" at least twice per page for about 6 chapters (or that's what if felt like). I started to wonder at the author's lack of imagination or the editor's lack of skill, caw nuff time that word could have been left out without any effect whatsoever on the intensity of the dialogue.

again u miss the intent of showing how base the reality was as opposed to the ideal Hortense sought and thought was there...the cockneys r notorious for adding words like dat to dem speech NAW...DAT WAS NOT DI ISSUE FOR ME. IT WAS, AGAIN, THE AUTHOR USING A DEVICE INEFFECTIVELY. SHE IS USING A "MEMOIR" APPROACH TO HER STORY, LOOKING BACK FROM A SITUATIONAL DISTANCE - I THINK - AND THEREFORE, CANNOT PLAUSIBLY DROP IN AND OUT OF A "CURRENT DIALOGUE" APPROACH AND ADD COHERENCE TO THE NARRATIVE. I'M READING, NOT LISTENING. LESSER USE OF "BLINKING" COULD STILL EFFECTIVELY HAVE CONVEYED THAT SHE WAS A POTTY MOUTH, WITHOUT SUBJECTING THE READER TO THE IRRITANT OF BUCKING UP THAT WORD IN WHAT SEEMED LIKE EVERY OTHER SENTENCE.

7. the night after she slept with michael, queenie found his wallet that he had left behind, and proceeded to describe the contents this way:"There were photographs in its tattered inside. One of an old negro man standing formally in front of a house. Looking to all the world like a chimpanzee in clothes, this lord of the manor stood behind a seated black woman with white hair and a face as grumpy as Monday morning. Another was of a little darkie girl with fuzzy-wuzzy hair tied in ribbons as big as bandages." i got confused. is Queenie a racist? why she had to describe the man as looking like a chimp? if these are her usual thoughts, is she feeling revulsion at having slept with michael?

and that was my problem throughout this whole damn book - I could not get a fix on each person's character to the point where I could feel this person was real to me.

Queenie is human...she describes drawing on words of her socialization but acts on her own thinking as it affords her at the time she makes the decision

Hence, my difficulties, as I stated earlier, trying to understand Hortense and how she got her notions of how British people were when she was living in Jamaica. Was it from the teachers at the teaching school, the nuns with their aura of superiority? did she admire those nuns? I don't know.
hortense saw whites in jamaica commanding respect for no other reason than their skin colour...that is wat the book brings into focus....admiration in the sense that she wanted to be somebody and they were the somebodies of her reality....juss like how har fambily expected har to have a diffrant life tru she had likkle white eena har skin, so she grew to view that the skin afforded a certain way of life....hence har total shack wen she a speak di Queen's English wid har big words an di people no undastan multisyllable words...
I THINK THE AUTHOR MISSED THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THIS MORE EXPLICIT IN HER PROLOGUE SETTINGS IN JAMAICA.

Gilbert, again, someone I know from the way he reacts to the racism in England and elsewhere, not someone I could say I know to the core, or ended up caring very much about.

Queenie - well, i did not appreciate that she got to sleep with a black man before Hortense did, and Hortense did married to one. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70400-talktohand.gif[/img]

mi neva like dis book, have to say.
</div></div>

the book was well crafted for a first effort...the literary content is quite remarkable for a first effort IMO ... </div></div>

I thought she was previously published and Small Island was not her first work.

[Blackstar*]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

Wow! I'm amazed how so many of you disliked Small Island.

I recognize so many of the attitudes present in my family in the UK in the person of Hortense. And as a first-generation black Brit I experienced some of the same treatment as Hortense. This leads me to wonder if this book (as Nunya or mountaingal hinted) is very much about the black British experience and not universal enough for non-Brits. Dunno - just an idea. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/70402-thinking.gif[/img]

[Blackstar*]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jamerican_Gyal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have lived with "Hortense and Gilbert" (my in-laws) for the past twenty years or so, so I was able to relate to those characters!
</div></div>Me too, Jamerican_Gyal, me too.

[Blackstar*]

Re: "Small Island" book discussion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may miss the subtltiy as I did not read teh book.. I listend to a dramatisation of the book on BBC radio 4 Womans Hour over a ten day period.. .I could not stand the female character, i thought her having an over inflated opnion of herself.. Contempt for her own Jamaican..And anyone who has a guilt complex of sex need help... She reminded me of Tropicana, without her houmour, and she never learnt the lessons that Tropi did... </div></div>There are nuff, nuff W.I. women born before the 1940's just like that. Of course, this doesn't make Hortense more likeable. LOL