Why does god allow natural disasters...?

**f0rTyLeGz** · 01-31-2010, 12:49 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All of that you are saying does not answer the initial question, Accepted. Why does god (assuming he exists) allow disasters that kill people without regard to who or what they are? </div></div>
John Macarthur says that, "... all through human history, God punctuates His patience with events that remind us death is around the corner and we don't know when. That's the message." This god creates calamities for we sinners to <span style="font-style: italic">remind</span> us that we may die at any moment (repent!).

**rudemonk** · 01-31-2010, 03:02 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To address the opening question, let me turn to the bible for those who are more inclined to pay attention if the bible is being used.

I find it quite interesting that when Jesus was [apparently] asked a similar question, he completely bypassed a direct answer and diverted the attention to those asking the question. In the book of Luke (13), he was asked about some people who killed in a massacre by Pontius Pilate. Clearly the people were asking a similar question as the one in the topic title. "Jesus, do you think those people killed by Pilate died because they were bad? Make some sense of why this happened to them?" Jesus does not answer them as to the WHY. All he does is tell them that the people who died were no worse than those asking the question and that they (those asking the questions) should watch their back lest a similar fate befalls them.

What I get from this is that Jesus admits that life sucks. Bad things can happen to good people as well as bad people. There is no rhyme or reason and he does not implicate any god in the matter which I find interesting since he was supposed to be god himself according to some people's theology.

So what if Jesus said, "it's all part of god's master plan whether you understand it or not" (which is what some Christians say), how would he have sounded and of course, it would have created far more questions than answers which is exactly what modern day Christian theology does hence this topic. </div></div>

I'm glad you point this out Mutty. There are actually quite a few contradictory passages which I think Christians gloss over, because they don't make any real sense when taken in the context of the theology, or even worse, simply use other non gospel texts which deviate further from what must have been the rational original source material. Giving our man the benefit of the doubt, to be sure.

Here it becomes very easy to see how Yashua's, probably original wisdom teaching- of the same quality as go and sell all that thou hast- is later redressed by layers of religious, entirely irrational, gobbledeegook to mean something so catastrophically non sensical that humanity doesn't deserve life in the first place, but God suffers it, supposedly. Which is ironic, because by all logic and reason, he's the one who goofed up.

This also, is an interesting passage, what quickly follows the part you quote about how it gets dished out to the good and just as well as the bad and evil. I mean, the bit about the rain falling and sun shining pretty much blasts apart most theodicies anyway but:

On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues,
and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all.

When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, "Woman, you are set free from your infirmity."

Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, "There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath."

The Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water?

<span style="font-style: italic">Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"</span>

When he said this, all his opponents were humiliated, but the people were delighted with all the wonderful things he was doing.

I'm sure you will instantly recognize the gaping whole this blows in the theodicy evanovitch introduced.

In the epic teaching Love thy enemies, Jesus says the good suffer with the bad the same way. That's just how it is. Notice he says the <span style="font-style: italic">good</span>. He never once anywhere tells anyone that everyone deserves to just be wiped out and doesn't deserve to even live. Why send our souls down here in the first place if that is the case- just keep us up in heaven where he can keep us safe from hell and evil. But I guess that also is actually beyond his power, else he would have known before hand the moves of the devil and would have squashed him out in the very first place, thus protecting Eve.

Make it like a giant university- everyone can agree I think that when you go to school and to college for example, you can exercise your free will, you can grow as an individual, and you don't need to be exposed to suffering and evil on any great order like what we have to deal with down here.

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil <span style="font-style: italic">and the good,</span> and sends rain on the <span style="font-style: italic">righteous</span> and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be <span style="font-style: italic">perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.</span>

**Mutty** · 01-31-2010, 03:27 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

Thanks 40legz and Monk.

The theology some Christians work with (part of what has been implied here) is that we are all deserving of god's wrath and judgment so whenever shiligit happens, just be lucky he had mercy on you. It makes sense if an earthquake collapses on a prison full of child rapist and murderers, but it makes no sense when it kills babies and springs hardened criminals free. Again, NO rhyme or reason to indicate there is someone at the switch because if you say "god is" then his defenders are left to explain the obvious silliness here.

**rudemonk** · 01-31-2010, 06:45 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">First</span> as Hebrews points out that he suffers us to live when every act of defiance of the Angels is treated with immediate reccompence.
</div></div>

first of all I have no idea how you can claim to know any of this and the premises have holes you can drive trucks through, but let's just grant it all and take your word for it.

how does this account then, for satan and all his demons. they also live, first of all. as in he never erased them. so he certainly suffers them to exist, when by rights he should wipe them out. to not wipe them out, this would be like you releasing a child molester into your home with your kids home. or arming a pack of darfari rebels and setting them loose in a women's refugee camp. you would never do it. I hope. But yet you feel it is okay for god to do so, and he should be worshipped for it?

if angels can't have free will- which it would seem they actually do have free will- but if they are not allowed to defy God, why didn't he just wipe 'em out and start again, or just erase those that fell. If he seeks to punish beings which are only there to serve his will and pleasure, why punish them. That would be like me punishing my computer, or a hammer.

There should be no such thing as a fallen angel *if* you are right and your scripture means what you think it does. unless he is keeping them around so that maybe they can redeem themselves? But you can't say that because then you're not so special an order of creation anymore. If he is keeping them around so they can do dirty work, he's just been proven malevolent.

This is the problem when you stake out so much of your life according to some texts that haphazardly came together 2000 years ago.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How can we dis him as a malevolent God?
</div></div>

see above.

**acceptedtoday** · 02-06-2010, 12:42 AM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

I understand how your view of God is fashioned by your view of Life, to you this temporary existence is life.
To God this is death.
Eternal life is where God passion for life lies. Eternal life that Jesus again made possible to us all not this wisp of time.

**Mutty** · 02-06-2010, 06:19 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand how your view of God is fashioned by your view of Life, to you this temporary existence is life.
<span style="font-weight: bold">To God this is death.</span>
Eternal life is where God passion for life lies. Eternal life that Jesus again made possible to us all not this wisp of time. </div></div>

Which is why some people call Christianity a "death cult."

Also, keep in mind, supposedly your god created "this life." It was ALL his planing and doing with supposed foresight.

**eloquor** · 02-06-2010, 08:48 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

I havent read the entire post, and I am not on much anymore, but I note with interest some parts of the question:

1. The question pre-supposes God exists, and secondly that God "allowed" the events in question

I may suggest that those who argue against the existence of God wont be able to successfully argue about the God that does not exist actually allowing something. So to actually argue the point is to acknowledge the allowance, which in turn infers the existence of the God earlier denied...

Secondly, even after we get over that hurdle, the question somehow implies that such an omnipotent being is restricted from "allowing" such events to occur. Isn't it even possible that God "caused" it to happen rather than simply "allowing" it? Then it becomes a question of intent, rather than neglect.

2. Question also infers that the disasters in question are "natural". I posit that this is not always the case. For example, the known but often unsaid cause of the magnitude of the tragedy of Haiti is simply related to extremely poor building standards plus the grinding poverty that prevents improvement on those standards. The earth shaking might be "natural", but Papa & Baby Doc were bigger contributors to that "disaster" than God IMHO. Same goes for people who live close to the river for that nutrient-rich soil, which ironically is derived from the river overflowing its banks every few years or so...

Just thought I would throw that out there...

**Mutty** · 02-06-2010, 10:28 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I havent read the entire post, and I am not on much anymore, but I note with interest some parts of the question:

1. The question pre-supposes God exists, and secondly that God "allowed" the events in question

I may suggest that those who argue against the existence of God wont be able to successfully argue about the God that does not exist actually allowing something. So to actually argue the point is to acknowledge the allowance, which in turn infers the existence of the God earlier denied...

Secondly, even after we get over that hurdle, the question somehow implies that such an omnipotent being is restricted from "allowing" such events to occur. Isn't it even possible that God "caused" it to happen rather than simply "allowing" it? Then it becomes a question of intent, rather than neglect.

2. Question also infers that the disasters in question are "natural". I posit that this is not always the case. For example, the known but often unsaid cause of the magnitude of the tragedy of Haiti is simply related to extremely poor building standards plus the grinding poverty that prevents improvement on those standards. The earth shaking might be "natural", but Papa & Baby Doc were bigger contributors to that "disaster" than God IMHO. Same goes for people who live close to the river for that nutrient-rich soil, which ironically is derived from the river overflowing its banks every few years or so...

Just thought I would throw that out there... </div></div>

If I know Natral well enough, the question is being asked within the understood theology of Christians. The real question would have gone like this:

"Let's say the Christian god exists, why does he allow natural disasters?"

**britisha** · 02-06-2010, 10:53 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I havent read the entire post, and I am not on much anymore, but I note with interest some parts of the question:<span style="font-weight: bold">

1. The question pre-supposes God exists, and secondly that God "allowed" the events in question

I may suggest that those who argue against the existence of God wont be able to successfully argue about the God that does not exist actually allowing something. So to actually argue the point is to acknowledge the allowance, which in turn infers the existence of the God earlier denied...</span>

Secondly, even after we get over that hurdle, the question somehow implies that such an omnipotent being is restricted from "allowing" such events to occur. Isn't it even possible that God "caused" it to happen rather than simply "allowing" it? Then it becomes a question of intent, rather than neglect.

2. Question also infers that the disasters in question are "natural". I posit that this is not always the case. For example, the known but often unsaid cause of the magnitude of the tragedy of Haiti is simply related to extremely poor building standards plus the grinding poverty that prevents improvement on those standards. The earth shaking might be "natural", but Papa & Baby Doc were bigger contributors to that "disaster" than God IMHO. Same goes for people who live close to the river for that nutrient-rich soil, which ironically is derived from the river overflowing its banks every few years or so...

Just thought I would throw that out there... </div></div>

Hey Quodlibet !! So nice to see you !!!

The bolded part of your text is what I was trying to imply/say..even in a round-a-bout fashion...[couldn't devote entire attention in the response]...anihoo..if such a God doesn't exist then how can He/She be blamed or be responsible for such disaster[s]? ...therefore...[a] He Exists or [b] if non-existent, then does not enter into the equation.

I was talking to a Haitian friend not too long ago tonight, and I will post in Biggah's thread what he said accounted for some of the unnaturalness of the disaster.

**acceptedtoday** · 02-06-2010, 11:39 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

Mutty

You well know the answers to the questions you ask.
Life as we now experienced is not sustainable as the Bible records it the wages of sin is death. Death entered when sin came.
Jesus said He came that we would have life and that more abundantly

And further:
<span style="color: #990000">Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, <span style="font-weight: bold">I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? </span>Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. </span>

Its life that christians celebrate physical life to life eternal.
However eternal life is not sinful life it mcomes in one flavour righteous life.
The enjoyable life that is exhibited in this world and celebrated is not sustainable at an eternal level.
Does this mean that life for a christian cannot be joyfull here, No.
But it is a challenge for so much of this world celebration is sold out to sin.
Yet God did not create this world for the unregenerated he created it for the righteous, the very mercy of God is credited to the righteous. Thats why he did not spare the plain cities of Sodom and Gommorroh. The balance of righteous to unrighteous was not found.
Yet he spared Lot and his daughters four souls.
When disasters come the wheat perish with the tares the goodly with the ungodly but the godly move from life to life eternal.
The real sorrow is for the ungodly they wink out and awake to a certain judgement.

We all die physically but christians believers live on in this world and the next.
We grieve for those and ourselves whose one chance at life terminates here and so does God.

**rudemonk** · 02-07-2010, 10:34 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

why do you think it is okay for people to burn in hell, for eternity, for not believing in God.

in the sense of the original question, what gain does creation receive for having tragic, natural disasters.

how does this make sense?

if someone does not believe in, or love, the president of the united states, should they be thrown in prison for life? flown out to an volcanic island? why shouldn't the president of the united states be able to morally do that, if all that is needed for him to justify the punishment is to say he loves all his citizens, and they have free will to love him if they want, but if they choose not to, they must be punished?

why am *I* being forced to accept the brutal death of another as some way to assuage the wrath of God whose mad at me because of my sins? this forces me into an immoral position. I don't have a choice, and I would prefer for Jesus NOT to have gone through all of that on my account. I would choose for justice. If I committed a serious crime worthy of the death penalty, and someone said they would stand in for me so that I may be free with no consequence, no one would ever accept that as just or moral.

Yet this is what we have with some sects of Christianity.

and did you know, that in the early church, there was a book which almost became canon law, which was in fact used by early church fathers, church fathers very close to Yashua's life, and in which Jesus was recorded as telling Peter that hell was just a trick to keep people in line and secure their good behaviour, that eventually everyone gets out of jail free.

If the Bible were such an important document, why didn't God reveal it immediately after Jesus's death.

how did sin enter the world, why would God not prevent this from effecting innocents, who we know to exist in the same stories contained in the Bible you quote from. How are these contradictions reconciled?

why maintain in this day and age, and continue to build a faith out of, a biblical creation story, especially since we have repeatedly seen the Bible get folded back when confronted with actual evidence which states the contrary, one glaring example might be the order of the universe.

Paul, who created this model, had no knowledge of evolution, the authors had no knowledge of an earth that was an oblate spheroid. If Paul did know, he would not be able to say anything about the Garden of Eden or the Fall, because he would know it was just an allegory and could not have happened that way.

Interesting, in the sense that neither does Jesus teach that doctrine...

**rudemonk** · 02-07-2010, 10:57 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I may suggest that those who argue against the existence of God wont be able to successfully argue about the God that does not exist actually allowing something. So to actually argue the point is to acknowledge the allowance, which in turn infers the existence of the God earlier denied...
</div></div>

I think you are referencing a variation of the ontological argument for the existence of God.

to simply show the applicable absurdity of this statement, we can simply substitute the tooth fairy for the word God.

which is it's own ball of wax.

specifically to the question posed by the OP, and what Mutty has pointed out, is that claims are being made about the <span style="font-style: italic">possible</span> existence. granting it is possible, what then can we say about this potentially existing being?

one of the main problems, is that few people can set aside the fact that god's existence can not be proven or disproven, and keep that separate from what they next claim about the characteristics of this existence, which can be tested.

it is those claims which the problem of evil skewers, such as, that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent.

in the face of observable facts, logically there is no reconciliation between standard abrahamic claims and observable, provable, reality.

**evanovitch** · 02-08-2010, 04:49 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

Following Jesus can hold many surprises. We may think we know what God ought to do in troubling situations, but we cannot know all that is at stake. Let’s remember that with God, anything is possible--even resurrecting what we believe to be dead and healing what we perceive to be a hopeless situation.

**rudemonk** · 02-08-2010, 05:23 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Following Jesus can hold many surprises.
</div></div>

I agree with you here, very much. And in fact I would add that the real trick of the matter is the actual following and understanding of Jesus, which is exceptionally difficult, and so that is why people invent things out of whole cloth for which to follow him for that are opposite of what he supposedly taught, but soooooooo much easier to say you follow.

**evanovitch** · 02-08-2010, 05:53 PM

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Following Jesus can hold many surprises.
</div></div>

I agree with you here, very much. And in fact I would add that the real trick of the matter is the actual following and understanding of Jesus, which is exceptionally difficult, and so that is why people invent things out of whole cloth for which to follow him for that are opposite of what he supposedly taught, but soooooooo much easier to say you follow. </div></div>

u chose the right clause (mi a try memba if is a clause r a phrase dat) n widdin dat the important pawt is 'following Jesus'...if u dont believe in His existence den as i like to say, the rest is moot

now going awn to the rest of wat u said, if u dont immerse urself in Him, umiss the spirtual DISCERNMENT that He affords an den dat is when di fools rush in where even Angels fear to thread....

dat is y I aver and affirm dat having come down HImself, there is nothing new a parson a prophet can tell me dem get from God...He is all knwoing so wat could He have forgot to say wen He finally decided to come down dat go rung afta a long line of doing odda tings to get HIS message to us...PLUS HE inspired the Bible even if man pick an chose wat chapters fi put in r how fi wud it, but if u go wid di openining verses of Genesis and the Opening Verse of 1 John n u keep dat firmly in mind , all the KJV etc etc cannot pawt u from HIM....dat is discernment

Why does god allow natural disasters...?

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