Why does god allow natural disasters...?

[Peasie]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

We seem to have moved away from the original topic. So while we're on the current topic of creation of the universe, I recently found comfort in the book I am reading <span style="text-decoration: underline">My Struggle with Faith</span> by retired Catholic priest, Joseph Girzone. He writes about his belief as far as evolution:

&quot;However, as far as my religious convictions were concerned, it made no difference whether evolution was a fact or whether God created individual species. I always thought that if God began his creation as a submicroscopic spool of genetic matter and endowed it with the ability to unfold gradually over millions of years, it would be a beautiful way for Him to create. To say that God created individual species of plants and animals at various times seemed to portray Him as a child playing in a sandbox and creating plants and animals at random. It attributed to the Creator a capricious manner of bringing beings into existence. that would be so different from the orderly unfolding of the rest of the universe that it did not make sense to me.&quot;

Thinking about creation this way helps to settle my mind and helps me to stay focused on my faith. I am psychologically satisfied that God exists even though the technical evidence is not conclusive and points only to the <span style="font-style: italic">necessity</span> of God's existence. As Girzone goes on to posit, &quot;If I can see shadows falling from the trees in my backyard, I may not see the sun, but I can feel certain the sun is shining. It may not be proof, but it is powerful evidence nonetheless.&quot;

[rudemonk]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: accepted2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bottom line is that once &quot;God&quot; becomes a claim, rational discourse gets thrown out the window</div></div>

Wrong Monk that where you lie to yourself. You allow yourself to believe that some primordial soup made up of long chain protien which just happen to code themselves into a dNA strand collesed by chance and became a primitive live organism, life springing from non life something never modeled in any labortary.

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/rnamodel.html#KGDVuOTt7Ei1

You conciously believe that over time these organism became conscious beings and eventually self aware as yourself after a stunning number of chance occurences.
You dont claim to believe in the God who created this all and you believe in so doing you make his exisstence void and your imagination of your theory which cannot be proven true for to believe God exist would demand that you acknowledge his servience and his claims so you and others create your own God of fictional science.

Who is the naieve one?
</div></div>

you are my friend, because like many through no fault of your own, you are conditioned to believe in your bible.

I make no claims about God's existence whatsoever, except that if someone does make a claim, it can be tested, and so far, the general conception which people present as &quot;God&quot; is irrational and not logical considering our ability to make observations.

we both know, if you were born in calcutta, you would be hindu and of equal vim. if born in quetta, you'd be muslim. so now you know your &quot;God&quot; would have easily abandoned YOU to the faith of your parents, if you had been born there. You'd be in hell, as a non believer, who would probably- and correctly- find the idea of God having to kill himself to placate himself rather absurd.

Great God, that. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

as to abiogenesis, it's now been proven in an experiment that indeed, organic molecules DO spontaneously combine in prebiotic conditions.

there is nothing at all to say anything about there being a God which can be observed. nothing.

you believe something which is simply a condition of your present environment and factors of your birth.

As a point of difference, I don't claim to know anything about God but that which he logically, provably, is not. And I am convicted of evidence.

I can not reconcile the existence of evil with an all powerful, loving god. That is because logically, it can not be.

if God really did exist, I think he would do a better job of letting us know, rather than just leave it up to us to gaze at wonder at thunder and lightning in the clouds and slowly discover what he is not doing.

You yourself reject everything else which stands on equal footing with your conception of God, you reject Zeuss, Odin, WakanTanka, Allah, all of it, except your version of God. Much like those who feel there must be a God who created the universe, you are actually in a logically absurd position but don't know it.

The absurdity here is that by logical conclusion, one must then ask what created God. So just like the Universe, God would need a creator. If god does not need a creator, neither does the universe.

The only answer to who created God is agnosticism- no one can say. Therefore there is no reason to think there is a God needed for creation of the universe. All you can say is &quot;I don't know.&quot;

But that is all well and good- except that now you make truth claims for what you don't know, as if you do. These are beliefs, and are unfounded.

God never sent a fax. There's no instruction book. You have never once sat down and directly met face to face, your God, in any measurable fashion. Don't you think God would have come to the UN by now. I mean he used to do stuff like that.

On occasion people will say he wants to save us and help us, but then there's the sadism part. He gave 10 commandments on stone, but couldn't tell people about germs.

You imbue him with all kinds of secret and 'beyond human comprehension' attributes to explain this away enough that you feel comfortable.

Ironically, then you have Christians, who do not even follow the simplest instructions of their God. Another topic perhaps.

[rudemonk]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We seem to have moved away from the original topic. So while we're on the current topic of creation of the universe, I recently found comfort in the book I am reading <span style="text-decoration: underline">My Struggle with Faith</span> by retired Catholic priest, Joseph Girzone. He writes about his belief as far as evolution:

&quot;However, as far as my religious convictions were concerned, it made no difference whether evolution was a fact or whether God created individual species. I always thought that if God began his creation as a submicroscopic spool of genetic matter and endowed it with the ability to unfold gradually over millions of years, it would be a beautiful way for Him to create. To say that God created individual species of plants and animals at various times seemed to portray Him as a child playing in a sandbox and creating plants and animals at random. It attributed to the Creator a capricious manner of bringing beings into existence. that would be so different from the orderly unfolding of the rest of the universe that it did not make sense to me.&quot;

Thinking about creation this way helps to settle my mind and helps me to stay focused on my faith. I am psychologically satisfied that God exists even though the technical evidence is not conclusive and points only to the <span style="font-style: italic">necessity</span> of God's existence. As Girzone goes on to posit, &quot;If I can see shadows falling from the trees in my backyard, I may not see the sun, but I can feel certain the sun is shining. It may not be proof, but it is powerful evidence nonetheless.&quot; </div></div>

no offense peasie- but this is a bit of a cop out. I'm catholic too, and in some regards I respect the church for admitting when it is wrong, and accepting the laws of science and scientific discovery. I applaud their flexibility as well, when it comes to other faiths. now at least.

the problem with God using evolution to create, is still one of untold and brutal, immoral suffering as one of it's major selective pressures...and the claim for omniscience is problematic here.

[Peasie]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

No offense taken, Monk. I can see how what I wrote can be seen as a bit of a cop out. I don't have much more than that to offer all the same. Sometimes, for me, the simplest things are the hardest to understand. I was trying to make the point that this is a step of faith for me: accept evolution as the scientists present it as it only enhances my belief in the creator.

[Peasie]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<span style="font-style: italic">Going back to original topic of thread </span>

I heard someone talking about this very concept just this morning. Maybe I was listening knowing that this thread was in the back of my mind

The person I was listening to was talking on the topic *Why Are You Afraid* based on an interpretation of Mark 4:35-41 in the Christian Bible. The story is the one with Jesus sleeping in a boat during a dreadful storm while the disciples panicked. Could this story be a metaphor of how we react to the horrors of Haiti? Here is one thing I got from this story:

The disciples did <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">not</span></span> ask, <span style="font-weight: bold">'Jesus, <span style="font-style: italic">could you</span> do something about this storm?</span>.' What they asked was, '<span style="font-weight: bold">Jesus, do you care?</span>' I wonder if that is the same question the person (David Bain) in Natral's original post is asking after Haiti?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Natral</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But, as for those who believe in an all-good, all-powerful agent-God, we've seen that they face a question that remains pressing after all these centuries, and which is now horribly underscored by the horrors in Haiti. If a deity exists, why didn't he prevent this?</div></div>

[H_O]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

Why does god allow natural disasters...?

this takes us back to the main question-
assuming there IS a god

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peasie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The person I was listening to was talking on the topic *Why Are You Afraid* based on an interpretation of Mark 4:35-41 in the Christian Bible. The story is the one with Jesus sleeping in a boat during a dreadful storm while the disciples panicked. Could this story be a metaphor of how we react to the horrors of Haiti? Here is one thing I got from this story:

The disciples did <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">not</span></span> ask, <span style="font-weight: bold">'Jesus, <span style="font-style: italic">could you</span> do something about this storm?</span>.' What they asked was, '<span style="font-weight: bold">Jesus, do you care?</span>' I wonder if that is the same question the person (David Bain) in Natral's original post is asking after Haiti?</div></div>
In Mark 4:

37And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.

38And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

39And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

40And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

41And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
..........

This is a strange story if you have ever spent much time in a small boat because NO ONE is going to sleep on their pillow in a storm that it filling the craft with water. Asking Jesus if he &quot;cares&quot; make no sense, and I wish I could read it in the original.

Then Jesus does make the weather calm down... a miracle, and Jesus has supernatural powers. Then Jesus rebukes his desciples for not having faith in WHAT, their own powers? And then they are all aware that this man is not like them... he has supernatural powers AND can control the weather itself. Jesus even rebukes his disciples for not having faith in their ability to do the same.

The message seems to me to be that if people really had ENOUGH faith then we could stop earthquakes by speaking to them. Jesus spoke to the wind and the sea, and those natural forces OBEYED him. I don't see how the passages could be read any other way.

[neutral]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I make no claims about God's existence whatsoever, except that if someone does make a claim, it can be tested, and so far, the general conception which people present as &quot;God&quot; is irrational and not logical considering our ability to make observations.

we both know, if you were born in calcutta, you would be hindu and of equal vim. if born in quetta, you'd be muslim. so now you know your &quot;God&quot; would have easily abandoned YOU to the faith of your parents, if you had been born there. You'd be in hell, as a non believer, who would probably- and correctly- find the idea of God having to kill himself to placate himself rather absurd.
</div></div>


Very well stated,spot on with your observation.

[Panajar]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some experimental physics and quantum theory begin with an eternal universe that has no &quot;cause.&quot; </div></div>

I get that - however I have never found any of these theories particularly satisfying because of the incredible complexity I see in the universe. </div></div>

There in lies the problem,if we assume that complex things requires a designer, then using same logic ,the designer must be more complex than the universe. Since the designer is more complex than the universe <span style="font-weight: bold">who DESIGN THE DESIGNER</span>?Using the complexity argument only takes us back to a infinite number of designers ,at some point this process must end,then we are back were we started, who deigned the designer .

[neutral]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

While listening to the news last night there was a piece on haiti,they visited this church and everyone was doing their usual singing and praying,then the preacher stood up and voiced his opinion about how the foreign aid was not reaching the people,...he screamed almost hysterically at his congregation,...&quot;<span style="font-weight: bold">dont look to the white man to come and save us,only god can save us now</span>&quot;


Obviously the irony of the whole thing was lost on him,and his happy band of god worshippers.
However,it seems to me that some people are so conditioned to believe in &quot;god&quot; that after a while its not about whether &quot;they&quot; themselves do good ,..it`s almost inconceivable to believe otherwise,probably out of fear,or what it may mean for them to step out of that comfort zone of thinking,...despite whatever disaster may befall them or their country supposedly from the hand of &quot;god&quot;,...they still look to this &quot;god&quot; to &quot;save&quot; them.

[neutral]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Panajar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmoothOperator</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Some experimental physics and quantum theory begin with an eternal universe that has no &quot;cause.&quot; </div></div>

I get that - however I have never found any of these theories particularly satisfying because of the incredible complexity I see in the universe. </div></div>

There in lies the problem,if we assume that complex things requires a designer, then using same logic ,the designer must be more complex than the universe. Since the designer is more complex than the universe <span style="font-weight: bold">who DESIGN THE DESIGNER</span>?Using the complexity argument only takes us back to a infinite number of designers ,at some point this process must end,then we are back were we started, who deigned the designer . </div></div>


But what you say doesnt make sense when you take into consideration that the belief in an all powerful god who created us all only took hold a few thousand years ago,....and quite a few thousand years after moses is supposed to have existed,...and gave us the law of god.

[britisha]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

you are my friend, because like many through no fault of your own, you are conditioned to believe in your bible.</div></div>Can you be less condescending? I see your comments on this board coming from a position of &quot;I ALONE know the TRUTH...more than you, and you are to be pitied...&quot; when you respond to many posts dealing with Religious Philosophy here, Why?

What is this bit about &quot;YOUR&quot; <span style="font-weight: bold">B</span>ible? Since when can someone lay ANY claim to the Holy Scriptures?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


I make no claims about God's existence whatsoever, except that if someone does make a claim, it can be tested, and so far, the general conception which people present as &quot;God&quot; is irrational and not logical considering our ability to make observations.</div></div> Can you break this down in understandable form?

You make no claim about God's existence, but if someone makes a claim it can be tested?

Not all claims can be tested, so what is your point?

If someone stranded in the Sahara makes claim to seeing an oasis...can you refute that claim that <span style="font-weight: bold">the person is NOT seeing an oasis</span> although it IS an optical illusion based on the conditions in his/her brain?..<span style="font-weight: bold">even if, if there is no oasis, and that can be proven, no one can disprove that the person making such claim is not seeing one</span>.and don't forget there are false claims **chukkle* as well...like those who show up in a court of law, making false claims against black people.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

we both know, if you were born in calcutta, you would be hindu and of equal vim. if born in quetta, you'd be muslim.</div></div>

On what premise do you make this argument? Which one[s]?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> so now you know your &quot;God&quot; would have easily abandoned YOU to the faith of your parents, if you had been born there.</div></div>

sssisisisi...yuh nat serious right? Is this LOGICAL, to borrow your word? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Are You'd be in hell, as a non believer, who would probably- and correctly- find the idea of God having to kill himself to placate himself rather absurd.</div></div>Isn't it equally absurd to harbour the notion that &quot;non-believers&quot; are in Hell?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Great God, that. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

as to abiogenesis, it's now been proven in an experiment that indeed, organic molecules DO spontaneously combine in prebiotic conditions.</div></div>Could you elaborate?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

there is nothing at all to say anything about there being a God which can be observed. nothing.

you believe something which is simply a condition of your present environment and factors of your birth.</div></div>How can you say this with such conviction? How, Where is YOUR PROOF? [about a condition of &quot;your present environment&quot;? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As a point of difference, I don't claim to know anything about God but that which he logically, provably, is not. And I am convicted of evidence.

I can not reconcile the existence of evil with an all powerful, loving god. That is because logically, it can not be.

if God really did exist, I think he would do a better job of letting us know, rather than just leave it up to us to gaze at wonder at thunder and lightning in the clouds and slowly discover what he is not doing.

You yourself reject everything else which stands on equal footing with your conception of God, you reject Zeuss, Odin, WakanTanka, Allah, all of it, except your version of God. Much like those who feel there must be a God who created the universe, you are actually in a logically absurd position but don't know it.

The absurdity here is that by logical conclusion, one must then ask what created God. So just like the Universe, God would need a creator. If god does not need a creator, neither does the universe.<span style="font-weight: bold">
The only answer to who created God is agnosticism-</span> no one can say. Therefore there is no reason to think there is a God needed for creation of the universe.</div></div>

Nonsense!! <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> All you can say is &quot;I don't know.&quot;

But that is all well and good- except that now you make truth claims for what you don't know, as if you do. These are beliefs, and are unfounded.<span style="font-weight: bold">

God never sent a fax.</span> There's no instruction book. You have never once sat down and directly met face to face, your God, in any measurable fashion. Don't you think God would have come to the UN by now. I mean he used to do stuff like that.

On occasion people will say he wants to save us and help us, but then there's the sadism part. He gave 10 commandments on stone, but couldn't tell people about germs.</div></div>

You must forgive me, but I find this so amusing... <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You imbue him with all kinds of secret and 'beyond human comprehension' attributes to explain this away enough that you feel comfortable.

Ironically, then you have Christians, who do not even follow the simplest instructions of their God. Another topic perhaps. </div></div>

I stopped, if you noticed, quoting and asking questions, for most certainly you lost me...I took umbrage to your comments because as someone who believes in the Judea-Christian God, I find your comments insulting and even offensive.

btw...as soon as God rents a fax machine, He'll make sure to send you one. K? ...


I couldn't resist !!!! But *I* digress...

[britisha]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

Now as for the topic itself, methinks the archives haff mi comments on that arreddi fram waay back...

[SmoothOperator]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
no offense peasie- but this is a bit of a cop out. I'm catholic too, and in some regards I respect the church for admitting when it is wrong, and accepting the laws of science and scientific discovery. I applaud their flexibility as well, when it comes to other faiths. now at least. </div></div>

Monk out of curiosity - what is the basis of your catholic faith given your apparent non belief in a God of any kind.

[acceptedtoday]

Re: Why does god allow natural disasters...?

britisha,

I call it intelectual dishonesty, the dishonesty to accept the claims of the bible but every two bit opinion that panders to evolutinistic origins is applauded.

Monk hold to no position at one point i had put him on the ignore list because he presumes to know everything about everthing.

He presumes to know the intricies of creation where it would be best to say its still being debated. In effect he tries to and regularly comes off as being quite condescending not that it in any way offends me one cannot reason with a closed mind and I know who I believe in for i am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have commited unto him against that day.

Truth is not a factor with Monk its to win an argument at all costs, with such a person you speak pass him not to him as i said to those who have a questioning mind.