In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

DC · 02-21-2010, 09:35 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Natral</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Silent- do you believe that, as according to the Gospel of Luke? and John? that Satan entered Judas...</div></div>

Actually I do-in a sense- not as in 'possessed' as in one that is incapable of free will and is being overtaken by a spiritual force. If I recall correctly, the writer's original meaning of 'Satan entered Judas' does not indicate a 'demonic possession'. It signifies that it is at this point Judas' mind was made up, he made a decision not only in his mind, but his heart as well, and he finally yielded to the temptation of betrayal. in the story, apparently, Satan was glad he did because now his plan can go forth, knowing he has the full cooperation of Judas' will and heart.

<span style="font-style: italic">If I have the time I will check the references for clarity and post..</span> </div></div>

But surely you are all missing the point,it`s widely accepted,and promoted by christians,that "god" gave his only son,etc,that would indicate that ALL events leading up to and including jesus`s death was manipulated by "god"..so how come "satan" is being implicated in this crime.

Why would "god" work through "satan",is it not possible for "god" to do anything slightly underhand and manipulative without using "satan",...or is the implication of "satan" in all things bad an indication that he is simply a myth,someone made up to be the bad guy to "god`s good guy persona.
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Good questions Natral, and what you are pointing out is what we were discussing in an earlier post--deterministic veiwpoint-but i am also taking into account our premise on our belief in who god is, in this Judas story.

IF the belief that god is a 'manipulator', then as i said before, heaven must be Judas' destination-absolute certainty-because Judas is not responsible but was the 'pawn' in this 'play'.

If God is seen as 'a good god who shows mercy and grace', we can say that Judas can be in heaven.

The 'heaven' destinations are the same for both arguments- but the arguments can flow differently based on the premise of our belief in who god is.

As also stated before: 'I don't know' is the option considered for his destination. If I was to say where he would be with certainty, it would be heaven--but not based on the argument that god is evil and so forth..

see wha mi mean?

**rudemonk** · 02-21-2010, 10:15 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

I think what we are seeing here, rather plainly, is the evolution of myth making-

because the texts are not very cohesive in their plot, it suggests additions.

If we examine the myths around Yahweh, it's quickly obvious he is not quite the loving god that Yashua is referring to- he requires the wholesale slaughter of innocents not just once or twice but in like a gazillion examples- not to mention animals.

Jesus himself- if we grant all the general Christian truth claims- <span style="font-style: italic">needed</span> Judas to do what he did, so being that Jesus had foreknowledge, being God, there is no way Judas could have actually betrayed him.

This would be like Jesus standing at the edge of a cliff and standing by watching a blind man walk off it, without intervening. Actually he sort of nudges Judas in a sense. So would we have Jesus walk the blind man off the cliff? It's not possible, granting all truth claims, that Jesus would permit Judas to be possessed, or commit a crime that he could have prevented which would cause an innocent to suffer. It's a moral quagmire, this bit about Judas. Sort of makes the recent discovery of the gospel of Judas rather poignant.

I just think it's an interesting cop out in the process of mythologizing the <span style="font-style: italic">why</span> of a Son of God getting nailed to a cross, to introduce the Satan wrinkle. Maybe not cop out- but slightly undeveloped plot twist. Sort of like, let's throw this against the wall and see what sticks.

There is a lot of evidence mind you, which sort of shows this mythologizing far better, but the Satan part is fairly good.

DC · 02-21-2010, 11:06 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think what we are seeing here, rather plainly, is the evolution of myth making-

because the texts are not very cohesive in their plot, it suggests additions.

If we examine the myths around Yahweh, it's quickly obvious he is not quite the loving god that Yashua is referring to- he requires the wholesale slaughter of innocents not just once or twice but in like a gazillion examples- not to mention animals.

Jesus himself- if we grant all the general Christian truth claims- <span style="font-style: italic">needed</span> Judas to do what he did, so being that Jesus had foreknowledge, being God, there is no way Judas could have actually betrayed him.

This would be like Jesus standing at the edge of a cliff and standing by watching a blind man walk off it, without intervening. Actually he sort of nudges Judas in a sense. So would we have Jesus walk the blind man off the cliff? It's not possible, granting all truth claims, that Jesus would permit Judas to be possessed, or commit a crime that he could have prevented which would cause an innocent to suffer. It's a moral quagmire, this bit about Judas. Sort of makes the recent discovery of the gospel of Judas rather poignant.

I just think it's an interesting cop out in the process of mythologizing the <span style="font-style: italic">why</span> of a Son of God getting nailed to a cross, to introduce the Satan wrinkle. Maybe not cop out- but slightly undeveloped plot twist. Sort of like, let's throw this against the wall and see what sticks.

There is a lot of evidence mind you, which sort of shows this mythologizing far better, but the Satan part is fairly good. </div></div>

So, monk, are you saying that the 'possession' interpretation is the more reliable interpretation as the original texts are not reliable?

Well, as someone says, two people can read the same book and come away with two different interpretations,and there are a plethora of books written to support both arguments.

**rudemonk** · 02-21-2010, 11:29 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

no not at all- I think the possession aspect only makes sense if one comes to the story- in it's variations and layers- the same way as those who first set it down did. They didn't know exactly how to handle Jesus's execution, and so the story sort of hopped about and various justifications were developed, one being that somehow Satan got into Judas and made him betray Jesus.

Then later that didn't make much sense according especially to the eschatological stuff paul was developing, but there it is.

**quodlibet** · 02-28-2010, 08:51 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no not at all- I think the possession aspect only makes sense if one comes to the story- in it's variations and layers- the same way as those who first set it down did. They didn't know exactly how to handle Jesus's execution, and so the story sort of hopped about and various justifications were developed, one being that somehow Satan got into Judas and made him betray Jesus.

Then later that didn't make much sense according especially to the eschatological stuff paul was developing, but there it is. </div></div>

That would make their written words "interpretative", instead of "inspired"... Their 'accounts' would then become 'speculation'...

If you take the account as gospel (pun intended) then wouldn't it be contradicted by your statement <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">...and so the story sort of hopped about and various justifications were developed...</span></span>?

**Diplomat** · 03-03-2010, 03:30 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

An interesting question seeing he did carry out the will of God. I have no idea on which side of the ledger he'll end up though his committing suicide probably won't help his case

**mountaingal** · 03-03-2010, 05:21 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An interesting question seeing he did carry out the will of God. </div></div>

was gonna post that at the start of the discussion and say that he ended up in heaven because he essentially fulfilled a role that was laid out for him, is not like he had a choice.

**quodlibet** · 03-04-2010, 10:33 AM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An interesting question seeing he did carry out the will of God. </div></div>

was gonna post that at the start of the discussion and say that he ended up in heaven because he essentially fulfilled a role that was laid out for him, is not like he had a choice.
</div></div>

I would have loved to have seen this comment earlier in the post, it is important to the key components of this discussion IMO.

If, as you say he ended up in heaven by fulfilling a role that was laid out for him, and that he did not have a choice, then we are speaking about the idea of <span style="font-weight: bold">predestination</span>. This suggests we are ready for the next topic -- <span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">Link HERE</span></span>

**rudemonk** · 03-08-2010, 11:39 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An interesting question seeing he did carry out the will of God. I have no idea on which side of the ledger he'll end up though his committing suicide probably won't help his case </div></div>

it didn't hurt Jesus.

**rudemonk** · 03-08-2010, 11:42 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no not at all- I think the possession aspect only makes sense if one comes to the story- in it's variations and layers- the same way as those who first set it down did. They didn't know exactly how to handle Jesus's execution, and so the story sort of hopped about and various justifications were developed, one being that somehow Satan got into Judas and made him betray Jesus.

Then later that didn't make much sense according especially to the eschatological stuff paul was developing, but there it is. </div></div>

That would make their written words "interpretative", instead of "inspired"... Their 'accounts' would then become 'speculation'...

If you take the account as gospel (pun intended) then wouldn't it be contradicted by your statement <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">...and so the story sort of hopped about and various justifications were developed...</span></span>? </div></div>

well I would say actually that the facts of the matter contradict the claims of the matter by some people.

**Diplomat** · 03-09-2010, 08:03 AM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think what we are seeing here, rather plainly, is the evolution of myth making-</div></div>
Even skeptics agree that myth is not a factor in the stories of Jesus because narratives of events were written too closely to his lifetime to not have been disputed if they were mythological. Unless, of course, your presumption is that Jesus is a mythological character which is an argument that most skeptics conceded a long time ago.

**Diplomat** · 03-09-2010, 08:04 AM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no not at all- I think the possession aspect only makes sense if one comes to the story- in it's variations and layers- the same way as those who first set it down did. They didn't know exactly how to handle Jesus's execution, and so the story sort of hopped about and various justifications were developed, one being that somehow Satan got into Judas and made him betray Jesus.

Then later that didn't make much sense according especially to the eschatological stuff paul was developing, but there it is. </div></div>That would make their written words "interpretative", instead of "inspired"... Their 'accounts' would then become 'speculation'...

If you take the account as gospel (pun intended) then wouldn't it be contradicted by your statement <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">...and so the story sort of hopped about and various justifications were developed...</span></span>? </div></div>
well I would say actually that the facts of the matter contradict the claims of the matter by some people.

</div></div>
And what would those "facts" be?

**rudemonk** · 03-09-2010, 02:41 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think what we are seeing here, rather plainly, is the evolution of myth making-</div></div>
Even skeptics agree that myth is not a factor in the stories of Jesus because narratives of events were written too closely to his lifetime to not have been disputed if they were mythological. Unless, of course, your presumption is that Jesus is a mythological character which is an argument that most skeptics conceded a long time ago. </div></div>

well I don't know where you are getting your info from but I doubt the case is closable, and scholastically there definitely is nothing like a consensus that the stories were written down 'too' closely. that is somewhat laughable and anyone can see when they play telephone.

there is quite a bit of evidence (various textual criticisms) to suggest the mythmaking process is well at work in the stories surrounding Jesus. None of the stories line up, they disagree in order, a host of examples which sadly for believers opens the door wide for mythmaking.

the very stance the various sects take on Judas displays more than adequately the process of mythmaking- that of trying to explain what might seem unexplainable, which often paints believers into absurd positions. I think you grant far too much to the stories and are not taking into consideration the formative years which christianity went through. the luck of the draw basically determined your beliefs. it's that simple. tomorrow a set of books can be discovered which could incontrovertibly prove the synoptics in error. What would you do then. As a believer you are sunk.

you are in a way suggesting the son of god would prefer to walk on water rather than teach about how to invent penicillin.

from the perspective of what the stories actually claim, they are ludicrously open to rational attack and contradictions.

let's not be ludicrous for the sake of myth, as important and beautiful and worthy as they may be.

**rudemonk** · 03-09-2010, 02:41 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think what we are seeing here, rather plainly, is the evolution of myth making-</div></div>
Even skeptics agree that myth is not a factor in the stories of Jesus because narratives of events were written too closely to his lifetime to not have been disputed if they were mythological. Unless, of course, your presumption is that Jesus is a mythological character which is an argument that most skeptics conceded a long time ago. </div></div>

who are these skeptics?

**Diplomat** · 03-09-2010, 03:22 PM

Re: In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think what we are seeing here, rather plainly, is the evolution of myth making-</div></div>
Even skeptics agree that myth is not a factor in the stories of Jesus because narratives of events were written too closely to his lifetime to not have been disputed if they were mythological. Unless, of course, your presumption is that Jesus is a mythological character which is an argument that most skeptics conceded a long time ago. </div></div>
well I don't know where you are getting your info from but I doubt the case is closable, and scholastically there definitely is nothing like a consensus that the stories were written down 'too' closely. that is somewhat laughable and anyone can see when they play telephone. </div></div>
Maybe your references need updating? The dating of the gospels were all within 50 years of Jesus' life and we could discuss some of the arguments against the kind of myth making that would make stories of his life and activities questionable. As a matter of fact, any credible christian apologetic should contain some of those arguments so a bit of research is not a bad idea. In any event, one's bias is an important determinant in the acceptance or non-acceptance of any argument so at the end of the day it really is a matter of personal conviction and belief.

In Heaven or Hell? (Judas)

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