Doctrine of Predestination

**rudemonk** · 03-13-2010, 05:24 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[size:14pt]I am sincerely hoping that through this thread, believers may understand a little more about what they have accepted as fact, whichever side of the discussion they may have come down on. If the believer had not thought about it, this is an interesting conversation to have with their organizational leader - be it pastor, reverend, minister, etc.

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I would consider paying money to see that. I doubt the average pastor or minister is equipped to handle this topic, to be brutally honest.

**Nylah** · 03-13-2010, 06:03 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

dont come in here often cause...well.....anyway, this quote intrigued me. do you mind expounding on your point please? I would love to understand what your POV is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally, I believe an understanding of predestination is one of the CORE principles of Christian belief system, and to not understand it, weakens the faith of that individual.
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DC · 03-13-2010, 09:48 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[size:14pt]I am sincerely hoping that through this thread, believers may understand a little more about what they have accepted as fact, whichever side of the discussion they may have come down on. If the believer had not thought about it, this is an interesting conversation to have with their organizational leader - be it pastor, reverend, minister, etc.

</div></div>

I would consider paying money to see that. I doubt the average pastor or minister is equipped to handle this topic, to be brutally honest. </div></div>

You're quite sure about that?

**quodlibet** · 03-14-2010, 12:10 AM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[size:14pt]I am sincerely hoping that through this thread, believers may understand a little more about what they have accepted as fact, whichever side of the discussion they may have come down on. If the believer had not thought about it, this is an interesting conversation to have with their organizational leader - be it pastor, reverend, minister, etc.

</div></div>

I would consider paying money to see that. I doubt the average pastor or minister is equipped to handle this topic, to be brutally honest. </div></div>

Well, there is only one way to prove you wrong - for believers out there to do the research, come back and say "<span style="font-weight: bold">this is what my group believes</span>".

**quodlibet** · 03-14-2010, 12:14 AM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nylah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
dont come in here often cause...well.....anyway, this quote intrigued me. do you mind expounding on your point please? I would love to understand what your POV is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally, I believe an understanding of predestination is one of the CORE principles of Christian belief system, and to not understand it, weakens the faith of that individual.
</div></div>
</div></div>

I have been a member here for a few years now (give or take) and it has been my experience that if I give my opinion up front, it defeats my motives for starting the topic in the first place. My motives are to stimulate discussion, debate, consideration, even prayer if that is what it calls for with that individual. My purpose is not to try to convince anyone of my own beliefs.

After the discussion has run its course, sometimes I will put my $0.02 in...

<span style="font-style: italic">(I guess that goes back to when I used to mod the Politics Forum)</span>

**Nylah** · 03-14-2010, 12:32 AM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

hmmmmm, okay then. Would be interesting to hear your POV and then discuss that.

What caught my eye is that you said predestination is core to Christian beliefs whereas I know being Catholic or being Pentecostal, changes what they feel is core to their belief system.

anyway...

**rudemonk** · 03-14-2010, 07:08 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Silent_River</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
[size:14pt]I am sincerely hoping that through this thread, believers may understand a little more about what they have accepted as fact, whichever side of the discussion they may have come down on. If the believer had not thought about it, this is an interesting conversation to have with their organizational leader - be it pastor, reverend, minister, etc.

</div></div>

I would consider paying money to see that. I doubt the average pastor or minister is equipped to handle this topic, to be brutally honest. </div></div>

You're quite sure about that? </div></div>

well I reserve the admission that I certainly don't have experience of every single pastor or minister, but the ones I have had experience with, including my own sets of parish priests, are woefully ill equipped to deal with the sticky subjects and tend to shrug off the pointed qeustion- sometimes even advocating an unquestioning approach to the person's faith. and especially if it challenges their faith or raises flags about what a person believes.

the conundrum really kicks in because of the adherence to the pauline salvation model requiring free will to be a given in order to set up the deific sacrifice to itself.

if god knew eve would be corrupted he has a moral obligation to intervene, he would have known that satan would put her to the test and that her not having any concept of death or repercussions would put her at disadvantage to a creature so far her superior.

on the flip, if there is no free will, then this is all just a play for god's sadistic enjoyment.

i would love to see more pastors or ministers start picking up quantum physics journals and such, but I have a hard time imagining that becoming a trend.

**quodlibet** · 03-15-2010, 01:49 AM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nylah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
hmmmmm, okay then. Would be interesting to hear your POV and then discuss that.

What caught my eye is that you said predestination is core to Christian beliefs whereas I know being Catholic or being Pentecostal, changes what they feel is core to their belief system.

anyway... </div></div>

Well, when I post here, its never really about me per se - my personage is not really that important in the grand scheme of things

But I do like the point you raised about Catholic, Pentecostal, etc.

These groups claim the same history at some point in time, yet we will see these groups as radically different. Why? Because at some earlier point, someone thought on one of these topics, formed an opinion, and started to gather others who accepted that opinion as a part of the sacred doctrine.

For example, even within the Pentecostal, you have "Jesus Only" as well as "3-Name" Pentecostalists. In either group, you can have sub-groups such as "Charismatic" and "Conservative". Within some "Charismatic" you may have "Instrumental" versus "Non-Instrumental" - and in either group its a dice toss if they are "Once Saved" versus "Redemption Road" <span style="font-style: italic">(only this one is my term - cant remember the name right now)</span>

So a "Once Saved", "3-Name", "Charismatic", "Non-Instrumental" Pentecostalist Church would probably subscribe to the doctrine that: (descriptions are mine and approximate)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Once Saved</span>: Once you are truly saved, no matter what happens, you are part of the elect and therefore heaven bound - Matt 24:31 (BTW Predestination is a core belief here)

<span style="font-weight: bold">3-Name</span>: The only valid baptism is if it is done in the "Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" - Matt 28:19

<span style="font-weight: bold">Charismatic</span>: Uses the events of "Pentecost" as <span style="font-weight: bold">required confirming</span> evidence of being saved - ie speaking in tounges, prophesy, etc

<span style="font-weight: bold">Non-Instrumental</span>: Depends on the human body ONLY as a praise device, as inspired by the verse "let everything that <span style="font-style: italic">hath breath</span> praise the Lord" - ie guitars & drums dont have a breath of their own... (Psalms 150:6 ) -- Rare, but they are out there...

**Nylah** · 03-15-2010, 03:33 AM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

I still feel to smack you but I'll let it slide for now

I am a little leary of wading into this discussion because the whole "well, prove it" response precludes other things like honest faith.

After reading what others have said, I still cannot embrace predestination fully. I do side with the cause and effect concept. All causes have an effect in the timeline yes, but I dont agree that there is one cause to one effect ratio happening which implicit in the predestination concept. A cause can have multiple effects and from there one choice can be made over another.

I am not subject to my genetics at all costs. Diabetes is in my genetics on both sides of my family but I am not pre-determined to have diabetes because I have made certain lifestlye choices to avoid the same fate as my ancestors. Would I have the same choice or option if I was born at another time where what we know to avoid diabetes wasnt found yet? Probably not.

But to this all my premises give me a different starting point. I wonder if our idea of "love" is the same as God. Meaning his choice to stay out of our decisions is really all that sadistic or mean as others claim. Is it sadistic and mean from our viewpoint only and not necessarily God's? It is what it is to him. But that is a touchy subject because it implies a level of amorality to God that then steps outside Christian doctrine.

God is love but he is a whole heap of other things too.

My struggle with the once saved belief is the idea of the "chosen few" and that you are then "free" to behave as you please because at the time of your salvation you truly believed. It gives no motivation to keep striving towards being a better person because, hey, you got yours right?

If it is predestined that you are once saved, always saved, then the irony becomes you dont have to strive to live out Jesus' teachings because you are going to heaven no matter what.

This is the same for the 3-Name and Charismatics as far as I am concerned. (I refused to speak in tongues when I was in church and got told I wasnt gonna remain a Pentecostal for long at this rate I asked at what point in time was this switch gonna occur My point was I didnt feel I needed to speak in tongues to feel God. It was contrived if I did it, so from their POV I am not saved.)

So to circle this all back to predestination...I'll concede that it may be possible that all is known by God but not necessarily decided by him. If he is all powerful then is he not also powerful enough to leave us to make our own "effects"?
How do we know that we just havent found another law of physics that supports this yet? How are we so sure that one cause always equals one possible effect?

**rudemonk** · 03-15-2010, 12:36 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

sounds like you favor the garden of forking infinite paths- like the surface of a sphere is infinite yet also finite.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nylah</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

But to this all my premises give me a different starting point. I wonder if our idea of "love" is the same as God. Meaning his choice to stay out of our decisions is really all that sadistic or mean as others claim. Is it sadistic and mean from our viewpoint only and not necessarily God's? It is what it is to him. But that is a touchy subject because it implies a level of amorality to God that then steps outside Christian doctrine.

God is love but he is a whole heap of other things too.

</div></div>

consider this- if God is omniscient then he knows what the human concept of love is and our limitations. so why cause us to suffer for lack of an ability to understand- which is something he denied us in the first place, as our creator.

i always return to the child and parent analogy. in a loving parent/child relationship, the parent's understanding far surpasses the child's (just grant me this lmao), and yet there is never any doubt as to the parent's love. and yet anytime a parent subjects their child to the kinds of things God allows to happen to his children, we lock them up and throw away the key and revile them.

**Nylah** · 03-15-2010, 01:40 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

Nope I did consider that already

Not saying yea or nah, to what I am sure I believe. Only Christians believe that God's love is like that of a parent's love.

**rudemonk** · 03-15-2010, 03:00 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

it's definitely a problem, and we can see the mythmaking at work trying to offer solutions.

**Dyoll_73** · 03-15-2010, 10:31 PM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally, I believe an understanding of predestination is one of the CORE principles of Christian belief system, and to not understand it, weakens the faith of that individual. </div></div>

I know of two mainstream christian churches in which the doctrine of predestination is not something embraced at all. It was explained to me that the idea of God capriciously determining those who would be 'saved' and those who would be 'lost' (predestination) was just immoral and contrary to the character of God.

I've found that there seems to be some conflation with "predestination" and "foreknowledge." Of course, this is assuming one believes in both, or one or the other. I believe in neither. Predestination would seem to be morally reprehensible; and foreknowledge would make human choice irrelevant. Benevolence and omnipotence would compel an all-knowing deity to intervene where needed.

**quodlibet** · 03-16-2010, 08:39 AM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Humano</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Quodlibet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally, I believe an understanding of predestination is one of the CORE principles of Christian belief system, and to not understand it, weakens the faith of that individual. </div></div>

I know of two mainstream christian churches in which the doctrine of predestination is not something embraced at all. It was explained to me that the idea of God capriciously determining those who would be 'saved' and those who would be 'lost' (predestination) was just immoral and contrary to the character of God.

I've found that there seems to be some conflation with "predestination" and "foreknowledge." Of course, this is assuming one believes in both, or one or the other. I believe in neither. Predestination would seem to be morally reprehensible; and foreknowledge would make human choice irrelevant. Benevolence and omnipotence would compel an all-knowing deity to intervene where needed. </div></div>

Humano, thank you for actually responding to my question!

**Nylah** · 03-17-2010, 03:35 AM

Re: Doctrine of Predestination

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it's definitely a problem, and we can see the mythmaking at work trying to offer solutions. </div></div>

just read where a Catholic priest says nothing happens without the will of God...meaning he allows Job or anyone else to be possessed or tormented by the Devil. So a parent-child relationship this is not. If we are to be miserable all our lives because the Devil is riding us, then God has decided our destiny no? Where is the joy in being a Christian under these conditions?

but then again, many Christians argue that Catholics arent real Christians, so......

Doctrine of Predestination

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