Basics of Evolution 101

[rudemonk]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jah_yout</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as far as I or anyone else who is rational would care, this query makes no sense. are you trying to create an argument of scale AND wonder, as if to say we humans are just puny creatures who should be on their knees because thor rolls through the heavens in his chariot and our crops get watered? it's cute, but i don't see it as anything but a hallmark card pat on the back triteness.</div></div>


the usual intellectual dishonesty from you...
</div></div>

? How can a question be dishonest? I'm asking you to clarify, because your query about a single cell doesn't make any sense. Nor does the analogy presented.

It's clear you're not getting through the science that proves evolution is fact, so I'm thinking of ways to get you through it and that's why I need the clarification.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i suggested nothing of the sort...
but close-minded people who have never been out of this immediate galaxy claim to have knowledge of everything....
</div></div>

This makes no sense to state. I've never met anyone who claimed to have knowledge of everything, except a priest.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
it simply is impossible to reason with those who think they already have it all figured out;
</div></div> that's true, so why not keep an open mind?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i have yet to see scientists grow a heart, but if they do it is different from creating a living-tissue heart from non-living matter....
yet you claim random unconscious unintelligent forces &quot;created&quot; or &quot;formed&quot; the heart to begin with...

i doubt we will ever see eye to eye on these subjects </div></div>

all matter is non living, at one point.

I don't &quot;claim&quot; anything about any kind of &quot;force&quot; doing anything- I know that the heart evolved over time from simple organelles in cells to what we have now, and that humans can engineer a better one and are.

[jah_yout]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

&quot;why is consciousness a human trait?
are you telling me that animals do not have consciousness?


Because no animals have displayed consciousness. yes they are sentient, they feel things but so far, all we know is that they run completely on instinct and not in any way by reasoning which is central to consciousness.


&quot;are you saying that humans do not have instincts?
so how is it possible to train them to do things as well as communicate with them?'

I do not preclude certain instincts in humans but training and communications are centered around our unique ability among animals to reason.


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well since none of us can get into the mind &amp; soul of <span style="font-style: italic">another</span> animal (since we are also animals)...we will just have to go by opinion on this one and agree to disagree;

my opinion (as one who has observed many an animal, including the human animal) is that animals have consciousness--- as well as instinct...
just like humans have consciousness and instinct as well...
we may be more intelligent, but that is not to say an animal is just a moving vegetable with nothing but instincts, which is a reactive trait

[johnnycakes]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

j_y,

When and if science comes up with the answer to whether of not animals or rocks have consciousness, then we'll know.
Until then it's pure and unlikely supposition.

You might ask Mr.Ed

[jah_yout]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">j_y,

When and if science comes up with the answer to whether of not animals or rocks have consciousness, then we'll know.
Until then it's pure and unlikely supposition.

You might ask Mr.Ed </div></div>

hey that's apples and oranges...
or rather- living things vs. non-living things...
i have never seen/heard anyone claim a rock is a living organism

[rudemonk]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

there are several species of animals that exhibit self awareness and metacognitive functions which are testable- elephants, humans, apes, and dolphins for example can recognize themselves in mirrors...many higher functioning animals like elephants have developed social cultures and languages which are now being documented...

humans are not as alone as we might think.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/primatecognitionlab/

[johnnycakes]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

Yes, but is that what we are calling consciousness?


con·scious·ness (knshs-ns)
n.
1. The state or condition of being conscious.
2. A sense of one's personal or collective identity, including the attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or group


Perhaps so.

[rudemonk]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

well the mirror test is a bit genius- if an animal can recognize itself in the mirror, it is self aware.

as more and more of their languages are decoded, I think we'll be forced to recognize that metacognitive functions and awareness are shared by other species more and more. it only makes sense.

[franksterr]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: f0rTyLeGz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It seems to me like evolution, and genetics, would have to be disproved for there to be room for a god to be responsible for creating human beings. </div></div>
Mmm...why do some people still push the either / or argument as if God and evolution are mutually exclusive? </div></div>

I concur.

[johnnycakes]

Re: Basics of Evolution 101

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well the mirror test is a bit genius- if an animal can recognize itself in the mirror, it is self aware.

as more and more of their languages are decoded, I think we'll be forced to recognize that metacognitive functions and awareness are shared by other species more and more. it only makes sense. </div></div>\

Monk,

A lot of animals don't know that the image in the mirror or lake surface looking back at them is them. Since it has no scent or threatening posture it isn't real.
I agree that it is a small part of what I think of as consciousness but were animals conscious to the degree humans are we'd see chimpanzees driving small cars.

As we both agree, science and technology will continue to unravel these mysteries and we have to keep an open mind.

Dog willing.