More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

**jah_yout** · 10-05-2011, 03:35 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"enslaved africans would have positively identified with the jews of the exodus...
after all the similarities are striking;
enslaved in a strange land for 400 years having fallen out of favor with creation due to their own folly...and a promise of redemption should that universal order (called god or such) be restored to primacy in their lives and therefore throughout humanity...'

j_y,

The Exodus, the parting of the Red Sea , the wandering in the desert for 40 years, God handing down the fifteen commandments at Mt. Sinai NEVER happened.

Recent and extensive searches by Israeli archaeologists have uncovered no evidence of any such thing and they were eager to prove it true.</div></div>

i was not arguing on whether it happened or not...i simply stated that enslaved africans would have identified with this <span style="font-style: italic">story</span>--whether based on real or fictional events...
it is a story very similar to theirs, sans the parting of seas & stone tablets of course..

`
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, the descendants of slaves would find the experiences that someone made up in that story comparable in some ways to the experience of slavery.</div></div>

why the descendants?
what about the slaves themselves? you don't think they would recognize that this story was definitely similar to their own plight?
it is obvious that they would have...and very often did just that..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But.. God is not necessary nor the best avenue for the redemption of humanity.</div></div>

depends on what "God" we are talking about...it is probably the most misunderstood & misused word in all of humanity...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anything based on a fiction and/or deliberate lies starts off on shaky ground and for that matter for the descendants of slaves to go back to African religions would not be a step up either.</div></div>

well considering that the hebrews & their religious doctrines only became known upon their time in EGYPT, AFRICA...then you can clearly see they were influenced by african spirituality which they interpreted & tailored for their own purposes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's getting time to stand up as fully realized and self-assured human beings and the worship and fear of a fictitious "God" has not only has no place in the process, it is a hindrance to the advancement of the descendants of slaves and to the afflicted world. </div></div>.

only certain gods are fictitious...there is a real power in the universe that is greater than us...you can ignore this but it is real...and i will not call it "God" due to the confusion that word conjures up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Time to grow up and leave the dragons, ogres and God(s) of our childhoods behind and go on to better things, a better world.

We will do far better without that pile of superstitious rubbish to drag around.</div></div>

yes fairy tales should be left behind...but the force which governs the universe is not imaginary...it is very real...and disregarding it has consequences...
it is two different things, but you seem unwilling to even consider that fairy tales created by men is one thing and the celestial order which existed before men did is quite another

**Diplomat** · 10-05-2011, 04:21 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

Date: Monday, October 03, 2011, 5:51 am
By: Denise Stewart, BlackAmericaweb.com

The National Black Church Initiative is launching a program to get 10 million black men back in church. </div></div>
Very ambitious project. The first challenge is making the church relevant to men, especially black men, something that the church, generally speaking, have not done a very good job at.

**evanovitch** · 10-05-2011, 04:38 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

Date: Monday, October 03, 2011, 5:51 am
By: Denise Stewart, BlackAmericaweb.com

The National Black Church Initiative is launching a program to get 10 million black men back in church. </div></div>
Very ambitious project. The first challenge is making the church relevant to men, especially black men, something that the church, generally speaking, have not done a very good job at. </div></div>

how is Christ , the Church not relevant to men????? isnt that the problem...separating Christ from the Church n mekking it about the edifice rather than the Word?

**johnnycakes** · 10-05-2011, 06:01 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

why the descendants?
what about the slaves themselves? you don't think they would recognize that this story was definitely similar to their own plight?
it is obvious that they would have...and very often did just that..

Yes j_y,
But the original slaves, fresh from Africa were not Christians and would not have read the Bible.

"depends on what "God" we are talking about...it is probably the most misunderstood & misused word in all of humanity...'

I'm talking about the god of Christians, Jews, Moslems: the God that is currently in vogue, the God that the descendants of slaves are blindly obedient to.

"well considering that the hebrews & their religious doctrines only became known upon their time in EGYPT, AFRICA...then you can clearly see they were influenced by african spirituality which they interpreted & tailored for their own purposes..."

The Jews lived around Palestine.
The Egyptian captivity is a Biblical fiction.
I do not think there is any link between Egyptian religions and Judaism
nor do I think that Christ was black,
nor do I think or care if the nonsense in the Bible came verbatim from Africa. It's still nonsense and I should think that taking credit for that genocidal, homophobic, misogynist, backward, primitive rubbish would be something you would not want to do..

"only certain gods are fictitious"

Let's see.....since they kept records of such things, there have been about 1000 (ONE THOUSAND) gods.
As Hitch pointed out they have whittled that number down to ONE which is getting very close to the actual number.
I'll inject a little humor here: Mel Brooks in his skit as the "Two Thousand Year Old Man" was asked if back before the concept of God came about they had something to pray to to worship.
And the TTYOM replied; Oh yes, there was this guy Phillip, the head of our tribe, a big huge hairy guy who could crush you like a grape."
Carl Reiner (interviewing): "And you used to pray to him?"
TTYOM: "You bet"
Reiner: "Can you remember any of the prayers?"
TTYOM: "I think so, Oh Phillip, don't hit us and hurt us and put out our eyes...Amen"

Reiner: And how long did you worship him?"

TTYOM: "Oh not long because one day Murray was standing outside his cave and a bolt of lightning hit him and killed him and we all looked at that and said " There's something bigger than Phil!"

The situation is somewhat different today in that our present day Phil will not be replaced by the 1001th god in that long line of non-gods as humanity matures and leaves its spiritual childhood and ancient and persistent ignorance behind as we enter a new age .( Those who haven't read 'The Singularity Is Near" will not understand what i mean by a new age of humanity and it is too involved to hold a class here but suffice to say things are going to change for the better in a big way in the next 30 years))

"...there is a real power in the universe that is greater than us...you can ignore this but it is real...and i will not call it "God" due to the confusion that word conjures up"

j_y ,

I am not ignoring what you believe. I just do not believe in a higher power.
I have no problem with people who are deists, it's the theists that are the problem.

"yes fairy tales should be left behind...but the force which governs the universe is not imaginary...it is very real...and disregarding it has consequences..."

j_y,

You cannot have it both ways. God, no less than Santa Claus, fairies, leprechauns and the like are creations out of the minds of humans. You cannot discard some and retain others that have no more likelihood or proof of existence than do fairy tale characters.

Can you list the consequences of disregarding that "force" (may it be with you)
Response from congregation: "And may it be with you also"

**Dr.Dudd** · 10-05-2011, 06:55 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

So black men need church while white men need jobs eh!!
They still take the educated blacks for a bunch of idiots.

**jah_yout** · 10-06-2011, 09:56 AM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why the descendants?
what about the slaves themselves? you don't think they would recognize that this story was definitely similar to their own plight?
it is obvious that they would have...and very often did just that..

Yes j_y,
But the original slaves, fresh from Africa were not Christians and would not have read the Bible.</div></div>

nonsense!
there is recorded history everywhere of enslaved africans reading & using the bible- because often it was the only book they were allowed to have or hear- even though they were prevented from reading, some still learned to read & spread thoughts to their fellow people...go look it up so you can speak from a point of knowledge & not speculation...
can you dismiss the great paul bogle---who took matters into his own hands as a warrior-priest---as a bible-thumper?
he was a biblical man who led a revolt...he was not the only one;
how do you reconcile that?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"depends on what "God" we are talking about...it is probably the most misunderstood & misused word in all of humanity..."

I'm talking about the god of Christians, Jews, Moslems: the God that is currently in vogue, the God that the descendants of slaves are blindly obedient to.</div></div>

why are you focusing on the descedants of slaves as blindly obedient?
all blacks are not descendants of slaves & many non-blacks are blindly obedient to religion

"<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well considering that the hebrews & their religious doctrines only became known upon their time in EGYPT, AFRICA...then you can clearly see they were influenced by african spirituality which they interpreted & tailored for their own purposes..."

The Jews lived around Palestine. </div></div>
you are aware that palestine is a neighbor to egypt, africa & that only the recent suez canal actually separates egypt & palestine geographically...that you could just walk from egypt to palestine & vice versa...and that people have migrated between egypt & palestine for millenia

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Egyptian captivity is a Biblical fiction</div></div>.

as far as you know

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not think there is any link between Egyptian religions and Judaism </div></div>

let's leave "think" out of it...do some research & you will see the influences nile valley spirituality had on subsequent religions that it pre-dated

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nor do I think that Christ was black,</div></div>
that's a whole different topic

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nor do I think or care if the nonsense in the Bible came verbatim from Africa. It's still nonsense and I should think that taking credit for that genocidal, homophobic, misogynist, backward, primitive rubbish would be something you would not want to do</div></div>..

how can you seriously you speak about/critique the bible when you have never read it?...just excerpts that you can denounce...do you also denounce proverbs? what about ecclesiates? do you denounce that?
i'm not even sure you understand the concept of the bible...you seem to think of it as one contiguous book...when it is actually different books;
it's like saying every law book ever written in america is invalid by lumping them all together, simply because a few law books in the past had bigoted & unjust theories as their hallmark...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"only certain gods are fictitious"

Let's see.....since they kept records of such things, there have been about 1000 (ONE THOUSAND) gods.
As Hitch pointed out they have whittled that number down to ONE which is getting very close to the actual number.</div></div>

there are multitudes of gods...but only one order of the universe...certain laws are universal & irrefutable...it affects all & none are exempt...this is a characteristic of one-ness

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...there is a real power in the universe that is greater than us...you can ignore this but it is real...and i will not call it "God" due to the confusion that word conjures up"

j_y ,

I am not ignoring what you believe. I just do not believe in a higher power.
I have no problem with people who are deists, it's the theists that are the problem.</div></div>

whatever you believe, you are still governed by the laws of the universe, whether you like them or not...you are governed by gravity, hunger, life & death regardless of who are what you believe or like....
there is an order and you will fall in line like everyone else before you...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"yes fairy tales should be left behind...but the force which governs the universe is not imaginary...it is very real...and disregarding it has consequences..."

j_y,

You cannot have it both ways. God, no less than Santa Claus, fairies, leprechauns and the like are creations out of the minds of humans. You cannot discard some and retain others that have no more likelihood or proof of existence than do fairy tale characters.</div></div>

so you equate the vast mysterious incomprehensible-to-us-at-this-time-universe with santa claus?
surely you can do better than that...i do not believe in santa claus or the tooth fairy but this life's creation simply can not be compared to fairy tales...the universe is real & its mytseries have not been solved by man...there is knowledge out there we have not mastered..it is plain silly to ignore it & talk about cinderella or the tooth fairy...
are alien life forms a fairy tale? how do you know the exist have you ever seen one?
some say it is a fairy tale...we have no proof of aliens yet we must admit that we do not know if they exist or what their forms would be..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you list the consequences of disregarding that "force" (may it be with you)
Response from congregation: "And may it be with you also"</div></div>

thanks...
the most obvious law we are bound by is obviously to breathe oxygen....eat sleep, waste, etc.
obey them or die (eventually)...
drink lye & you will die...truth is indivisable...lies are divisible...a human gives birth to humans & cats give birth to cats...
communal coexistence & cooperation breed more positive livity than self-centered living...pollution destroys the natural eco-system of the earth...dirties the air & water, which are the elements of life support...the earth has everything needed to sustain life;
all bound by our spinning on the earth's axis & revolving around the mystical sun...

these laws have held true & continue to....

one can respect the order of the universe & marvel at it...or diss it & claim it was the result of easily explainable forces & no big deal at all...

i don't have to believe in fairy tales in order to respect the fact that the universe is way too complex to write off as a simple explanation which we will find in 6 years or already explained in a youtube video

**Diplomat** · 10-06-2011, 11:14 AM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChurchDude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very ambitious project. The first challenge is making the church relevant to men, especially black men, something that the church, generally speaking, have not done a very good job at. </div></div>

how is Christ , the Church not relevant to men????? isnt that the problem...separating Christ from the Church n mekking it about the edifice rather than the Word? </div></div>
A Church separated from Christ, who is its head, is a dead church and so that is not what I am taking about. Traditionally, some have positioned christianity, i.e. accepting Christ, as an insurance policy for the after life with very little teaching being done on the value of the Christian experience in our day-to-day lives. There is a very good book, "Why Men Hate Go to Church" that details some of the challenges Churches have to overcome to get more men on the inside.

<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA:

"Top 10 Reasons Why Some Men Don't Go to Church" </span>

1. Men are told over and over to be innocent as doves, but are not shown or encouraged to be wise as serpents.

2. We preach from the NGB: Nice Guy Bible (Retail Price: Your Soul). We emphasize the sweet stuff and let the tougher stuff go right on by.

3. We contend that the ideal Christian man is unemotional and if married, sacrifices everything for his wife. But Jesus was anything but stoic.

4. Men have been told to avoid anger at all costs, which isn't what the Bible says.

5. We promote a dangerous caricature of "gentle Jesus meek and mild," an infamous and ludicrous term penned by the late John Wesley. This dangerous caricature is as fictitious as anything you'll find in Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code.

6. Men, compared to women, are a problem to be fixed instead of a gender to be appreciated at church. This is mighty unattractive and unbiblical.

7.The church and Christian radio have failed to support a married man's need for regular sexual intimacy with his wife, which is an insult and a betrayal.

8. Christian men are unintentionally encouraged to become the plaything of other men in a misguided attempt to bolster their "Christian witness."

9. We unintentionally create spiritual veal: overprotected children who are taught to embrace false humility and false meekness. Kids who rarely, if ever, disagree with authority, even when it's corrupt.

10. Worship music is often too sentimental for guy tastes.

SOURCE (More Details)

**johnnycakes** · 10-06-2011, 01:32 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

nonsense!
there is recorded history everywhere of enslaved africans reading & using the bible- because often it was the only book they were allowed to have or hear- even though they were prevented from reading, some still learned to read & spread thoughts to their fellow people...go look it up so you can speak from a point of knowledge & not speculation...
can you dismiss the great paul bogle---who took matters into his own hands as a warrior-priest---as a bible-thumper?
he was a biblical man who led a revolt...he was not the only one;
how do you reconcile that?

j_y,

Either they were free Africans who were not literate or they were slaves who learned to read and understand English or the other slavers' languages.
And sure you can find exceptions like Bogle but it is not Bogle or people like MalcomX but people like MLK Jr. who were very much toned down and non-violent that black cultures follow today. This is due in large part because the white power structure and its media played up MLKJr and and virtually erased el Haj Malik El Shabazz, Patrice Lumumba and others like them from black consciousness and from favor in those communities.
In Jamaica it is Vybz and Dudus and all the corrupt white power structure supporting Jamaican politicians that are admired and almost exclusivelly discussed by a population that has no concept or tendencies toward serious action against authority.
It is a "panem et circenses" society much like the U.S.
such as their mentality is.

"why are you focusing on the descedants of slaves as blindly obedient?
all blacks are not descendants of slaves & many non-blacks are blindly obedient to religion"

I have explained that. Especially in a country that is 95% black and in which most of that number are descendants of slaves and quite aware of the evils of the white culture, it is significant that almost that entire population has accepted all that is wrong with the white cultures and what their previous white masters would have them do to their very great detriment.

Rastafarianism is one way in which a small part of that population sought to break away from the white culture but in a way so logically flawed and inclusive of so much scriptural tripe as to be not much of an improvement.

"you are aware that palestine is a neighbor to egypt, africa & that only the recent suez canal actually separates egypt & palestine geographically...that you could just walk from egypt to palestine & vice versa...and that people have migrated between egypt & palestine for millenia "

I am well aware of the geography. I just do not believe that black Africa had much influence on the Abrahamic religions or cultures of the Middle East certainly not as much as those who think that Christ was black.

"The Egyptian captivity is a Biblical fiction"
.

"as far as you know"

j_y,
The Israelis after years of extensive searches of the areas between Egypt and Israel where the captivity and Exodus were supposed to have taken place could find not a shred of evidence to back up the Bible and that story is very important to Judaism.
No such massive event could have happened without some evidence turning up in the thousands of years since and today with all the modern techniques available to archaeologists . If you want to accept the literal word of the Bible as proof, that's your prerogative.

how can you seriously you speak about/critique the bible when you have never read it?...just excerpts that you can denounce...do you also denounce proverbs? what about eccles...

j_y,

I spent a few years at Hebrew school and actually have read most of the Bible, a lot of it in Hebrew. I also read most of the New testament and especially those sections that deal with what Christ was alleged to have done and said and I have watched and continue to watch every debate on the Bible and the religions that use it to see, hear and understand what both critics like Hitchens and what supporting theologians have to say about it. I do not speak out of ignorance when it comes to the Bible or religion.
On the other hand those who are in thrall to the word of the Bible and God and all that rubbish cannot and will not listen to anything that contradicts those beliefs.
I have proven that right here in this forum. The deliberate ignorance lies with the religious who by necessity can only look at what they believe and who must avoid looking at facts and information that puts their faith to the lie.

'there are multitudes of gods...but only one order of the universe...certain laws are universal & irrefutable...it affects all & none are exempt...this is a characteristic of one-ness"

There is indeed an order of sorts to the universe but assuming a supernatural reason for it is unjustified. The volcano god as we now know did not kill people because they did something to anger it. Zeus did not toss lightning down at miscreants.
There is no reason for believing that a god is responsible for the physical existence of the universe and a thousand now gone gods that are ample reason for not believing in the present god, super power or what have you until this one is shown to be no more real than the thousand others..

'whatever you believe, you are still governed by the laws of the universe, whether you like them or not...you are governed by gravity, hunger, life & death regardless of who are what you believe or like....
there is an order and you will fall in line like everyone else before you..."

j_y,

All true and not at all the issue.

so you equate the vast mysterious incomprehensible-to-us-at-this-time-universe with santa claus?
surely you can do better than that...i do not believe in santa claus or the tooth fairy but this life's creation simply can not be compared to fairy tales...the universe is real & its mytseries have not been solved by man...there is knowledge out there we have not mastered..it is plain silly to ignore it & talk about cinderella or the tooth fairy...
are alien life forms a fairy tale? how do you know the exist have you ever seen one?
some say it is a fairy tale...we have no proof of aliens yet we must admit that we do not know if they exist or what their forms would be..

j_y,

the belief in an invisible supreme power as the reason for the universe IS in the same
area as characters from fiction if only because that concept is a creation of man's mind. There is no proof of such a being, power except in the minds of those who chose to believe such an explanation for the order of things.
I am sure that other sentient and intelligent life exists, has existed or will exist elsewhere in the universe. The physics, the chemistry is, to coin a word, universal.
If it happened here it has to happen millions of times elsewhere.
That would keep the God of the Bible quite busy which might be why He doesn't have time to answer many prayers.

"i don't have to believe in fairy tales in order to respect the fact that the universe is way too complex to write off as a simple explanation which we will find in 6 years or already explained in a youtube video"

j_y,
As long as you keep an open mind which, by the way, would preclude denigrating the excellent and completely factual abiogenesis video foolish.

**jah_yout** · 10-06-2011, 03:39 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">nonsense!
there is recorded history everywhere of enslaved africans reading & using the bible- because often it was the only book they were allowed to have or hear- even though they were prevented from reading, some still learned to read & spread thoughts to their fellow people...go look it up so you can speak from a point of knowledge & not speculation...
can you dismiss the great paul bogle---who took matters into his own hands as a warrior-priest---as a bible-thumper?
he was a biblical man who led a revolt...he was not the only one;
how do you reconcile that?</span>j_y,

Either they were free Africans who were not literate or they were slaves who learned to read and understand English or the other slavers' languages.</div></div>

so it was one or the other, huh...africans only fell into two categories...you seem to have a thing for neat, clean cut & dried black & white categorization...when often there are grey & beige areas..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And sure you can find exceptions like Bogle but it is not Bogle or people like MalcomX but people like MLK Jr. who were very much toned down and non-violent that black cultures follow today.</div></div>

that "black cultures" follow?
and here i thought blacks were violent...i guess they are either too passive or too violent depending on who is doing the analysis

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is due in large part because the white power structure and its media played up MLKJr and and virtually erased el Haj Malik El Shabazz, Patrice Lumumba and others like them from black consciousness and from favor in those communities.</div></div>

this is true, but not to say there is not a sizeable part of the population that knows the deal...they are just downplayed by the media

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In Jamaica it is Vybz and Dudus and all the corrupt white power structure supporting Jamaican politicians that are admired and almost exclusivelly discussed by a population that has no concept or tendencies toward serious action against authority.
It is a "panem et circenses" society much like the U.S.
such as their mentality is.</div></div>

again, those who know better are given no platform...jamaica has a long history of revolt...starting from the maroons...one of the first independent african peoples of the western hemisphere

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">why are you focusing on the descedants of slaves as blindly obedient?
all blacks are not descendants of slaves & many non-blacks are blindly obedient to religion"</span>

I have explained that. Especially in a country that is 95% black and in which most of that number are descendants of slaves and quite aware of the evils of the white culture, it is significant that almost that entire population has accepted all that is wrong with the white cultures and what their previous white masters would have them do to their very great detriment.

Rastafarianism is one way in which a small part of that population sought to break away from the white culture but in a way so logically flawed and inclusive of so much scriptural tripe as to be not much of an improvement.</div></div>

rastafari (no "ism" involved in the word)...is a culture...and it did not seek to break away from white culture...it was simply self-affirmation & denial of the brainwash from the white power structure...the very fact that the rastafari was ruthlessly hunted down & persecuted under the colonial gov't proves they were on to something...
seriously how much do you know about leonard howell, archibald dunkley, marcus garvey, prince emmanuel...
if you don't know these men's stories inside out you are in no position to say rastafari is "logically flawed"...rastafari does not subscribe to sky heaven or sky god or fairy tales...rastafari is based in reality and logic...i welcome you to a debate on this if you like...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">you are aware that palestine is a neighbor to egypt, africa & that only the recent suez canal actually separates egypt & palestine geographically...that you could just walk from egypt to palestine & vice versa...and that people have migrated between egypt & palestine for millenia "</span>

I am well aware of the geography. <span style="font-weight: bold">I just do not believe </span>that black Africa had much influence on the Abrahamic religions or cultures of the Middle East certainly not as much as those who think that Christ was black.</div></div>

so you are going by belief (faith) rather than investigating facts... i am not surprised;
egypt is far closer to palestine than new york is to idaho...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The Egyptian captivity is a Biblical fiction"
.

"<span style="font-style: italic">as far as you know</span>"

j_y,
The Israelis after years of extensive searches of the areas between Egypt and Israel where the captivity and Exodus were supposed to have taken place could find not a shred of evidence to back up the Bible and that story is very important to Judaism.
No such massive event could have happened without some evidence turning up in the thousands of years since and today with all the modern techniques available to archaeologists . If you want to accept the literal word of the Bible as proof, that's your prerogative. </div></div>

the red sea parting story is not literally true...any rational person knows this...does not mean there were no hebrews in israel...the story could be hyperbole or exaggerated...geographical proximity dictates that it was possible for israelite/palestinian people to be in neighboring egypt, africa.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">how can you seriously you speak about/critique the bible when you have never read it?...just excerpts that you can denounce...do you also denounce proverbs? what about eccles...</span>
j_y,

I spent a few years at Hebrew school and actually have read most of the Bible, a lot of it in Hebrew. I also read most of the New testament and especially those sections that deal with what Christ was alleged to have done and said and I have watched and continue to watch every debate on the Bible and the religions that use it to see, hear and understand what both critics like Hitchens and what supporting theologians have to say about it. I do not speak out of ignorance when it comes to the Bible or religion.
On the other hand those who are in thrall to the word of the Bible and God and all that rubbish cannot and will not listen to anything that contradicts those beliefs.
I have proven that right here in this forum. The deliberate ignorance lies with the religious who by necessity can only look at what they believe and who must avoid looking at facts and information that puts their faith to the lie.</div></div>

then it's sad that you studied the bible yet you do not know it in context...
you simply dismiss the entire books commonly called the bible as fiction...so let me ask you this...
was <span style="font-weight: bold">Tiharka</span>, emperor of egypt & ethiopia, mentioned in the books of kings & isaiah in the bible, a fictional character?
are you saying there are no historical factual accounts that were recorded in any books of <span style="font-style: italic">the bible</span>?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">'there are multitudes of gods...but only one order of the universe...certain laws are universal & irrefutable...it affects all & none are exempt...this is a characteristic of one-ness"</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">There is indeed an order of sorts to the universe but assuming a supernatural reason for it is unjustified.</span> The volcano god as we now know did not kill people because they did something to anger it. Zeus did not toss lightning down at miscreants.
There is no reason for believing that a god is responsible for the physical existence of the universe and a thousand now gone gods that are ample reason for not believing in the present god, super power or what have you until this one is shown to be no more real than the thousand others.. </div></div>

at least you agree that there is an order to the universe..where you get the idea that i ascribe it to supernatural forces is beyond me...how you know how the universe came about is also beyond me...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">'whatever you believe, you are still governed by the laws of the universe, whether you like them or not...you are governed by gravity, hunger, life & death regardless of who are what you believe or like....
there is an order and you will fall in line like everyone else before you</span>..."

j_y,

All true and not at all the issue. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">so you equate the vast mysterious incomprehensible-to-us-at-this-time-universe with santa claus?
surely you can do better than that...i do not believe in santa claus or the tooth fairy but this life's creation simply can not be compared to fairy tales...the universe is real & its mytseries have not been solved by man...there is knowledge out there we have not mastered..it is plain silly to ignore it & talk about cinderella or the tooth fairy...
are alien life forms a fairy tale? how do you know the exist have you ever seen one?
some say it is a fairy tale...we have no proof of aliens yet we must admit that we do not know if they exist or what their forms would be..</span>

j_y,

the belief in an invisible supreme power as the reason for the universe IS in the same
area as characters from fiction if only because that concept is a creation of man's mind. </div></div>

i vehemently disagree...wind is invisible yet it can wipe out a city...it is an invisible power...not to be confused with santa claus or the tooth fairy...gravity- another powerful force-- is also invisible...not to be confused with pinochio or mother goose...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no proof of such a being, power except in the minds of those who chose to believe such an explanation for the order of things.</div></div>

why does it have to be a "being"?
we are dealing in different points of reference here...you can only concieve of a "being', while i say our minds are still limited as to all the possibilities of life & unknown/ unused parts of the brain...

I<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> am sure that other sentient and intelligent life exists, has existed or will exist elsewhere in the universe. </div></div>
why are you sure? you have no evidence...oh my bad- you have faith

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The physics, the chemistry is, to coin a word, universal.</div></div>

so perhaps we are descended from another life form from another place...possible?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it happened here it has to happen millions of times elsewhere.
That would keep the God of the Bible quite busy which might be why He doesn't have time to answer many prayers. </div></div>

we've just never seen it...you are using educated guesses & common sense/ logic to believe something that no one has ever seen or can prove...i don't see "God" as portrayed in the bible as a literal entity...it is not that simple...
i say it all the time; my world view is not shaped by the bible or any other particular books...i try to use all available knowledge as well as reasoning to form some kind of outlook...not a slave to scripture- scripture simply meaning writings

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">i don't have to believe in fairy tales in order to respect the fact that the universe is way too complex to write off as a simple explanation which we will find in 6 years or already explained in a youtube video"</span>
j_y,
As long as you keep an open mind which, by the way, would preclude denigrating the excellent and completely factual abiogenesis video foolish.</div></div>

you are looking for anything to back up your firmly held belief that there is no intelligence beyond us humans...
while i do not subscribe to the view that complex biological & eco systems develop out of random accidental events...

you will have to figure out how to reconcile that fact with the fact that i do not subscribe to the creation story from genesis as a literal historic event...

when i have the time i will show you some different creation philosophies from some other cultures...
abiogenesis is merely another creation myth from another culture...
when they create an organism from non-living matter i will change my view & label them as the truth

**johnnycakes** · 10-06-2011, 04:21 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

j_y,
Too much time wasted debating fact and science vs the supernatural.

Fact and science will always be with us.
The supernatural beliefs will continue to go away as we gain knowledge and as they always have.

If science and the supernatural were investments where would you put your money given the history?

**jah_yout** · 10-07-2011, 07:29 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The National Black Church Initiative is launching a program to get 10 million black men back in church. </div></div>

misguided...knowledge of self and the true 'god' is preferable to just attempting to recruit massive anounts of people into organized churches or mosques or synagogues;

the waymost of these things are set up right now is irrational doctrines based on mind control

**johnnycakes** · 10-07-2011, 10:21 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

Worse than what you said j_y is that accepting basic Christian beliefs is deeply immoral and doesn't that sound unbelievable?

Yet when you listen to the reasons why this is so, they much so much more sense than do the explanations for accepting such things as Christ dying for our sins.

I recently read something about Judas who has been hated forever for selling out Christ for those pieces of silver and it said that IF Christ was SUPPOSED to die for our sins then why wasn't Judas who helped the process along revered instead of reviled?

But Hitchens just blows the whole thing away with this 12 minutes of brilliance that "Christians" cannot watch or listen to so fragile is their faith:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo82sgrSAYg

w

**Dr.Dudd** · 10-08-2011, 12:13 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Worse than what you said j_y is that accepting basic Christian beliefs is deeply immoral and doesn't that sound unbelievable?

Yet when you listen to the reasons why this is so, they much so much more sense than do the explanations for accepting such things as Christ dying for our sins.

I recently read something about Judas who has been hated forever for selling out Christ for those pieces of silver and it said that IF Christ was SUPPOSED to die for our sins then why wasn't Judas who helped the process along revered instead of reviled?

But Hitchens just blows the whole thing away with this 12 minutes of brilliance that "Christians" cannot watch or listen to so fragile is their faith:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo82sgrSAYg

</div></div>
So like how Christ already pay for our sins with his life, That should give us the right to sin then.
We wouldn't want his life to go in vain... would we???

**johnnycakes** · 10-08-2011, 12:43 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

So like how Christ already pay for our sins with his life, That should give us the right to sin then.
We wouldn't want his life to go in vain... would we???

Doc,
The concept of vicarious redemption is illogical and immoral on its face.
Joking about this fraud is like joking about cancer.

Take 12 minutes and watch this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo82sgrSAYg

**freedom-man** · 10-20-2011, 06:21 PM

Re: More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

Date: Monday, October 03, 2011, 5:51 am
By: Denise Stewart, BlackAmericaweb.com

The National Black Church Initiative is launching a program to get 10 million black men back in church.

The National Black Church Initiative (NBCI) says it has a solution for crime, domestic violence and joblessness in the black community – get more black men back into the church on Sundays and throughout the week.

The Washington, D.C. –based network of more than 34,000 congregations this week launched its “Bring the Black Men Back to Church Initiative.” The goal is to get 10 million black men back in church over the next seven years, said the Rev. Anthony Evans, president of NBCI.

“If you are unemployed, if you are dealing with issues like anger or drug and alcohol abuse and you are a black male, the only option for you is to find someone who is compassion. And you can find that compassion in church,” Evans told Blackamericaweb.com. “We are the one institution that is not judging you. Instead we are here to help you deal with all that is on your plate.”

The presence of black men in churches, Evans said, helps the man and it helps the church, “because it will force the church to have programs to meet the needs of the men.”

An increase in the number of black men in a church also will force the women to share the power, and it will bring other women to the church, because they will realize they can find suitable mates, Evans said.

“It will also help keep the pastor’s in check. If they are tipping around, a black man is going to say something.”

Juan Floyd-Thomas, PhD, a professor at the Vanderbilt School of Divinity who specializes in the study of the black church, said a more dominant presence of women in black churches is a similar pattern found among other religious groups.

Floyd-Thomas, who has been everything from an usher to a Bible study teacher in Baptist churches, said that over the years he has encountered black men who have left the church for a variety of reasons.

“Some say, ‘all of this love is being heaped on pastor. What is left for us?’” Floyd-Thomas told BlackAmericaweb.com.

The church needs black men, and black men need the church, he said.

“The church has to be able to speak to men where they are and instill within them the sense of responsibility, saying ‘this is what you need to do to get your life on track. This is what you need to do to come know Christ.’”

Evans said the NBCI will train 1,000 men from 100 congregations to go out as evangelize to black men who currently are not church participants. They will be recruited to participate in faith centers that will be staffed with counselors and clergy to help meet the men’s needs.

“The first centers will happen in our regional ministries in Atlanta, Dallas, Oakland, New York, and Chicago,” Evans said.

“If you are in church, you can build a network. Maybe you’ll meet someone who has a job. Or maybe you’ll find someone who can stand up for you when you are looking for a job,” Evans said.

“If you are in church, you are not stealing. If you are in church, we can say to you, ‘Pay your child support. Handle your responsibilities,’” he said. “’Get a checkup. Take care of yourself.’” </div></div>

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More Black Men in Church Equals Better Communities

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