Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

[evanovitch]

As a follower, Mary was one of many women that accompanied Jesus during his travels, most of whom are believed to have been wealthy.

During his journey, he was visited by two women, the unnamed sinner in Luke 7 and Mary of Bethany, both of whom anoint his feet and dry them with their hair, similar to the way Magdalene anointed him shortly after his death..

<span style="font-weight: bold">In 591, Pope Gregory the Great stated that all three were in fact one woman, Mary Magdalene, and this is how she became labeled as a prostitute, or the unnamed sinner. </span>

In all four Gospels, she is the first to witness Jesus after his resurrection.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Believed to be the Jesus’ favorite by the apostles</span>, Mary is asked to reveal secret teachings given to her by Jesus while consoling the apostles.

After her revelation, which is found in the Gnostic Gospel of Mary, she has a disagreement with Peter about the teachings.

<span style="font-weight: bold">This is the beginning of strengthening Peter’s role in Christianity while lessening that of Mary’s. </span>

[evanovitch]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene
[The Gospel of Mary]
Chapter 4
(Pages 1 to 6 of the manuscript, containing chapters 1 - 3, are lost. The extant text starts on page 7...)

. . . Will matter then be destroyed or not?

22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.

23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.

24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?

26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.

27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.

28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you.

29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand.

30) Matter gave birth to a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from something contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in its whole body.

31) That is why I said to you, Be of good courage, and if you are discouraged be encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature.

32) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

33) When the Blessed One had said this, He greeted them all,saying, Peace be with you. Receive my peace unto yourselves.

34) Beware that no one lead you astray saying Lo here or lo there! For the Son of Man is within you.

35) Follow after Him!

36) Those who seek Him will find Him.

37) Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom.

38) Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it.

39) When He said this He departed.


Chapter 5
1) But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us?

2) Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you.

3) But rather, let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men.

4) When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Savior.

5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman.

6) Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them.

7) Mary answered and said, What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you.

8) And she began to speak to them these words: I, she said, I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, Lord I saw you today in a vision. He answered and said to me,

9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.

10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?

11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision and it is [...]

(pages 11 - 14 are missing from the manuscript)


Chapter 8:
. . . it.

10) And desire said, I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie since you belong to me?

11) The soul answered and said, I saw you. You did not see me nor recognize me. I served you as a garment and you did not know me.

12) When it said this, it (the soul) went away rejoicing greatly.

13) Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance.

14) The power questioned the soul, saying, Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge!

15) And the soul said, Why do you judge me, although I have not judged?

16) I was bound, though I have not bound.

17) I was not recognized. But I have recognized that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly things and the heavenly.

18) When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, which took seven forms.

19) The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven powers of wrath.

20) They asked the soul, Whence do you come slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?

21) The soul answered and said, What binds me has been slain, and what turns me about has been overcome,

22) and my desire has been ended, and ignorance has died.

23) In a aeon I was released from a world, and in a Type from a type, and from the fetter of oblivion which is transient.

24) From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence.


Chapter 9
1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her.

2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas.

3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.

4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?

5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?

6) <span style="font-weight: bold">Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.</span>

7) <span style="font-weight: bold">Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.</span>

8) <span style="font-weight: bold">But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.</span>

9) <span style="font-weight: bold">That is why He loved her more than us.</span> Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.

10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.


<span style="font-weight: bold">The Gospel According to Mary
This very important and well-preserved codex was apparently discovered in the late-nineteenth century somewhere near Akhmim in upper Egypt
</span>

[franksterr]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

Yes she was what is called a kedeshah or temple prostitute which according to my understanding is a courtesan who studied psychology and physical therapy and the use of roots and herbs....hence the reason she was the first to see the risen christ and the last by his side and possibly the one who order myrrh and aloes for the cleaning of his body -{ I know the bible said it was order by Joseph of Arimathea} which runs contrary to my understanding of Jewish customs wherein it is women who prepare dead bodies for burial.......unless of course he was being revived.

You know thats a good question - what were the herbs and spices customarily used by Jewish women (in the time of Jesus) when preparing a body for burial?

[evanovitch]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes she was what is called a kedeshah or temple prostitute which according to my understanding is a courtesan who studied psychology and physical therapy and the use of roots and herbs....hence the reason she was the first to see the risen christ and the last by his side and possibly the one who order myrrh and aloes for the cleaning of his body -{ I know the bible said it was order by Joseph of Arimathea} which runs contrary to my understanding of Jewish customs wherein it is women who prepare dead bodies for burial.......unless of course he was being revived.

You know thats a good question - what were the herbs and spices customarily used by Jewish women (in the time of Jesus) when preparing a body for burial? </div></div>

but the studies show she was not a whore..her purpose was perverted after the fact...

[franksterr]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evanovitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes she was what is called a kedeshah or temple prostitute which according to my understanding is a courtesan who studied psychology and physical therapy and the use of roots and herbs....hence the reason she was the first to see the risen christ and the last by his side and possibly the one who order myrrh and aloes for the cleaning of his body -{ I know the bible said it was order by Joseph of Arimathea} which runs contrary to my understanding of Jewish customs wherein it is women who prepare dead bodies for burial.......unless of course he was being revived.

You know thats a good question - what were the herbs and spices customarily used by Jewish women (in the time of Jesus) when preparing a body for burial? </div></div>

but the studies show she was not a whore..her purpose was perverted after the fact... </div></div>

Yea but remember she had 7 devils.....my guess is Lust was one of them.

[Dyoll_73]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but the studies show she was not a whore..her purpose was perverted after the fact... </div></div>

Yes, indeed, scholarship has helped to 'rehabilitate' her image. The Catholic church heirarchy has long apologised for the error of calling Mary of Magdala a prostitute, but it seems the message has been slow in reaching the pews. I continue to be amazed about how many christians still hold that misconception of Mary. What I also find even more alarming is the number of christians who find it impossible to even entertain the notion of a Jesus who possibly had sex.

[Wahalla]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

Could she not have been both ???

If she existed.....

[evanovitch]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could she not have been both ???

If she existed..... </div></div>

would u want to have ur contributions misstated wen u pass on...knowing u , u wi seh yes...ah sah...

[Wahalla]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

So why not being a Vestial Virgin.... type as well as being a deciple of the son of a Roman Centurion as one tradtion of Jesus birth has it.....

There is a president in proto Jewish History.. Hosea wife was a vestial virgin for Baal and Jehovah... It seems one could change jobs as a temple whore... depending on conditions.. And given that the roman occupation would imply that the Romans had tenmples in palistine at the same time as Herods reconstructed temple.. one could see Mary Maglene working for Zeus one week and changing to yahweh the next and Mithras the next!

Just because she may have been a whore does not prevent her from being capable of being a disciple of a new minority religion...... She she could have thouight maybe I can corner the market as a vestial virginism for this new cult.. for lets face it do we know the name of any more temple whore besides her ??? (Well Mary the mother of Jesus and Elizabeth were supposed to have been this in other tradtions....) But as I write this that makes sense that if u replace the supernatural that two of the reformers of proto judahism would have been the childtren of vestial virgins.. Showing the influence of mothers.. Note these women would have been exposed to directly and indirectly the questions of philoshy and ethics.. then pass onto their children!

It strikes me being a whore would more make her question the very values of society.. which is esstential the subtext of the entire concept of the historical Jesus...

I am not being faceseoud merely point out a possibility.. but u know mi nuh too smart.. mi uneducated

[evanovitch]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

the pulling what she could be from out of the air is juss not kosher...it is an attempt to deny her her place in history of the Christ....given her ability to travel freely n her support of Christ...given her origin, it is more than certain that she had the income from fishing bck home to support His Ministry...not every woman has to lay on her back to be able to support an efffort...n she did not...not every male/female interaction has to be sexual....an even if, the Word of Christ n the example He set is wat we need to follow n mek all di odda tings stay pon di wayside...keep our eyes on the prize

[Wahalla]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

No far from it.... There are two traditions that are not reconciled.. That she was a Vestial Virgin and that she was a disciple of Jesus... An author AN Wilson acknowledges both these possibiies.. So does these Armstrong...who postulates that early isreal was not so much monotheistic but Monolatristic..

I see no inherent contradictions to both roles, but beleive I embigen her

My thesis is that given that there were multiple religions in 1st century Palestine (Roman, sects of protojudahism, Egytpian, Mithraism, Greek,, Zorasterianism that a woman with her skill set could have moved between them as it would have been in demand.. Added to the fact that Rome did not marginalise religions except when they became a philosophy of liberation or exclusivity... Which was what the Maccabees postulated....

The standard practice was to call any woman a whore who diid not conform.... or was of independent means... Another famous female from the period is endoured with the same characteristic.. (Queen Berneice.....)

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes she was what is called a kedeshah or temple prostitute </div></div>
Pure B-S. Judaism did not have any kind of women serving within or near the Temple - prositute, vestial virgin, or otherwise. The Levites (MEN) ran the Temple. No female was ever in the Temple service (the service of the Temple) and never were in the private holy places where the Levites were permitted.

The only use of the term &quot;kadesha&quot; is in the term &quot;chevra kadesha&quot; (incidentally, one of the names of Mohammad's wives was Khadija... it's the same word, kadesha) and the chevra kadesha were the women who prepare(d) the dead bodies for burial. These women did a very necessary function in their society, as they still do today, but they are ritually unclean, which means that they could not enter the Temple and still may not enter a synagogue until after visiting a mikvah and undergoing a ritual cleansing bath.

Being Catholic, I do not believe that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute - but whether or not she was, she most assuredly <span style="font-weight: bold">was not</span> in the service of the Jewish Temple in manner, shape, or form.

[franksterr]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

Hey WitchyOoman long time since we last have match wits now remember this all in fun to enjoy each other seen?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: franksterr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yes she was what is called a kedeshah or temple prostitute </div></div>
Pure B-S. Judaism did not have any kind of women serving within or near the Temple - prositute, vestial virgin, or otherwise. The Levites (MEN) ran the Temple. No female was ever in the Temple service (the service of the Temple) and never were in the private holy places where the Levites were permitted.</div></div>
Genesis 38:20-22
Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21 He asked the men who lived there, “Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?”
“There hasn’t been any <span style="font-weight: bold">shrine prostitute </span>here,” they said.
So he went back to Judah and said, “I didn’t find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, ‘There hasn’t been any <span style="font-weight: bold">shrine prostitute </span>here.’”

Here we have a patriarch using the service of shrine (temple) prostitue, the result of this action led to David and Jesus.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only use of the term &quot;kadesha&quot; is in the term &quot;chevra kadesha&quot; (incidentally, one of the names of Mohammad's wives was Khadija... it's the same word, kadesha) and the chevra kadesha were the women who prepare(d) the dead bodies for burial. These women did a very necessary function in their society, as they still do today, but they are ritually unclean, which means that they could not enter the Temple and still may not enter a synagogue until after visiting a mikvah and undergoing a ritual cleansing bath.</div></div>

I know how much you used wikipedia the last time so here is what they have to say on the word &quot;kadesha&quot;.

The Hebrew Bible uses two different words for prostitute, zonah (&amp;#1494;&amp;#1504;&amp;#1492&amp;#8206;[11][12] and kedeshah (&amp;#1511;&amp;#1491;&amp;#1513;&amp;#1492&amp;#8206;.[13][14] The word zonah simply meant an ordinary prostitute or loose woman.[12] But the word kedeshah literally means &quot;consecrated (feminine form)&quot;, from the Semitic root q-d-sh (&amp;#1511;&amp;#1491;&amp;#1513&amp;#8206; meaning &quot;holy&quot; or &quot;set apart&quot;.[13]

Whatever the cultic significance of a kedeshah to a follower of the Canaanite religion, the Hebrew Bible makes it clear that cultic prostitution had no place in Judaism. Thus Deuteronomy 23:18-19 tells followers:


None of the daughters of Israel shall be a kedeshah, nor shall any of the sons of Israel be a kadesh.
You shall not bring the hire of a prostitute (zonah) or the wages of a dog (keleb) into the house of the Lord your God to pay a vow, for both of these are an abomination to the Lord your God.

The meaning of the male form kadesh or qadesh is not entirely clear.[15] The Hebrew word keleb (dog) in the next line may also signify a male dancer or prostitute,[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being Catholic, I do not believe that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute - but whether or not she was, she most assuredly <span style="font-weight: bold">was not</span> in the service of the Jewish Temple in manner, shape, or form. </div></div>

Well that is to be proven...so far we will both agree that Christ expelled seven devils from her, my feelings on the matter is one of them devils was a sex maniac - nymph.

[WitchyOoman]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

Actually, I rarely use wiki. I just happened to use it last time because I was being lazy. Wiki is often only half-right; it's only as good as those who add to it's pages. All too often, it has misinformation. You have to be careful about what you accept a correct on wikipedia.


I am not going to change my stance on the fact that Judaism did not, and does not, use temple prostitutes (under any title). Certainly, plenty of other religions did, but Judaism never did.
Franksterr, you and I are apparently going to have to agree to disagree... unless you are going to change your mind and agree with me.


Yes, we agree that it says in the bible that Jesus expelled seven devils from Mary Magdalene.

Your feelings regarding anything further about the nature of these devils are nothing more than pure speculation, and nothing more. They are irrelevant to the discussion, since they are nothing more than a guess or wish on your part... but you are, of course, free to believe as you choose.


I am sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't the time, these days, to dig obscure information out of dusty volumes for the sake of the pleasure of argument. I am very busy right now, in the middle of a hotly contested political campaign; I am running for City Council. Perhaps after I win the election (in May), we can take up our favorite pastime. I will only have time for very brief visits for the next few months.

[franksterr]

Re: Mary Magdalene: whore or Disciple?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WitchyOoman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, I rarely use wiki. I just happened to use it last time because I was being lazy. Wiki is often only half-right; it's only as good as those who add to it's pages. All too often, it has misinformation. You have to be careful about what you accept a correct on wikipedia.</div></div>

I agree


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not going to change my stance on the fact that Judaism did not, and does not, use temple prostitutes (under any title). Certainly, plenty of other religions did, but Judaism never did.</div></div>

Sure they did not, just as how catholics do not practice idolatry.
You would be surprised at what was common and religious practiced by the Hebrew people.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Franksterr, you and I are apparently going to have to agree to disagree... unless you are going to change your mind and agree with me.</div></div>

No I am not going to changed my mind, You have not provided any reason why I should. All my previous research tells me she was a temple prostitute. So we will have to agree to disagree.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, we agree that it says in the bible that Jesus expelled seven devils from Mary Magdalene.</div></div>

Good At least we agree on that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your feelings regarding anything further about the nature of these devils are nothing more than pure speculation, and nothing more. They are irrelevant to the discussion, since they are nothing more than a guess or wish on your part... but you are, of course, free to believe as you choose.</div></div>

They are a little more that speculation, and far from a wish.....


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't the time, these days, to dig obscure information out of dusty volumes for the sake of the pleasure of argument. I am very busy right now, in the middle of a hotly contested political campaign; I am running for City Council. Perhaps after I win the election (in May), we can take up our favorite pastime. I will only have time for very brief visits for the next few months. </div></div>

I wish you all the best on your campaign
I will miss you