Did Jesus really exist?

[David Mullings]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: j-can</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J-Can, I'm curious. What brought all of this about? What led up to it? You don't have to derail this thread to explain and can start another one or since it is yours, you can. </div></div>


I had allways questioned whether Jesus did all those things that was attributed to him but never once did I question his existence.

Until ironically I read a letter in the Gleaner on line which lead me to a documentary called Zeitgeist the movie peaked my interest so I did some more research (2 days after work at the library and on line)Maybe I got a little too emotional but I felt I was misled all these years

You have to understand I am not suddenly an atheist but my eyes are now opened..So to speak </div></div>

Not believing that Jesus was real does not make you an atheist. Not believing that there is no greater power than you does.

You are most likely an Agnostic now - http://arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-tex...l/agnostic.htm

[rudemonk]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: j-can</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If Jesus wasn't real and just a figment of somebody's imigination,Wouldn't that be a fatal blow to christianity as we know it?
</div></div>

I think the distinction must be made that Yashua's actual existence is somewhat moot except to the fundamentalist and they are so lost already what does it matter, you are talking about people who think the earth is only 7000 years old and man and dinosaur cohabitated. To them the Flintstones are not a cartoon but a documentary. His reality/non reality is basically moot, not for the reason which CEW is saying though, an unconfirmable belief does not grant an automatic stamp of reality. I don't think there can be any doubt that Christianity as a loose term, needs to be completely recontextualized and dragged into the year 2008. To be honest, what most people practice as Christianity has little or nothing to do with Christ's actual teaching. How many people do you know who profess to follow Jesus and have gone and sold all that they had and given to the poor, which was one of Yashua's conditions of gaining eternal life. I can think of a few, and they are all mendicant monks and half of those are Buddhists. You don't see too many amongst the social club Christians, if any.

The fatal blow to Christianity is in swapping the metaphorical mythic, and I would say transcendental for literalism, and for getting swindled by Paul.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">&quot;If you think that the metaphor is itself the reference, it would be like going to a restaurant, asking for the menu, seeing beefsteak written there, and starting to eat the menu.&quot;</div></div>
-Campbell


Here's an interesting bit about the history of the Gospel of Mathew, to be taken as you see fit:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GHeb-57 Jerome
Matthew, also called Levi, who used to be a tax collector and later an apostle, composed the Gospel of Christ, which was first published in Judea in Hebrew script for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed. This Gospel was afterwards translated into Greek (and the Greek has been lost) though by what author uncertain. The Hebrew original has been preserved to this present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilus diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having this volume transcribed for me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, Syria, who use it. It should be noted that wherever the Evangelist -- whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord and Saviour -- quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the language of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Therefore these two forms exist, “Out of Egypt have I called my Son,” and, “For He will be called a Nazarene.” (See also margin of codex 1424 – This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophets, “Out of Egypt have I called my Son.”</div></div>

[f0rTyLeGz]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

Yes Wahalla! Having LIFE is truly miraculous!

[H_O]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: j-can</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mutty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">J-Can, I'm curious. What brought all of this about? What led up to it? You don't have to derail this thread to explain and can start another one or since it is yours, you can. </div></div>


I had allways questioned whether Jesus did all those things that was attributed to him but never once did I question his existence.

Until ironically I read a letter in the Gleaner on line which lead me to a documentary called Zeitgeist the movie peaked my interest so I did some more research (2 days after work at the library and on line)Maybe I got a little too emotional but I felt I was misled all these years

You have to understand I am not suddenly an atheist but my eyes are now opened..So to speak </div></div>a wicked docimentary dat- i posted that and didnt get any responses

[rudemonk]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

~~ Myth and Metaphor ~~


An Interview with Joseph Campbell from
The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers

MOYERS: What is the metaphor?

CAMPBELL: A metaphor is an image that suggests something else. For instance, if I say to a person, &quot;You are a nut,&quot; I'm not suggesting that I think the person is literally a nut. &quot;Nut&quot; is a metaphor. The reference of the metaphor in religious traditions is to something transcendent that is not literally any thing. If you think that the metaphor is itself the reference, it would be like going to a restaurant, asking for the menu, seeing beefsteak written there, and starting to eat the menu.

For example, Jesus ascended to heaven. The denotation would seem to be that somebody ascended to the sky. That’s literally what is being said. But if that were really the meaning of the message, then we have to throw it away, because there would have been no such place for Jesus literally to go. We know that Jesus could not have ascended to heaven because there is no physical heaven anywhere in the universe. Even ascending at the speed of light, Jesus would still be in the galaxy, Astronomy and physics have simply eliminated that as a literal, physical possibility. But if you read &quot;Jesus ascended to heaven&quot; in terms of its metaphoric connotation, you see that he has gone inward – not into outer space but into inward space, to the place from which all being comes, into the consciousness that is the source of all things, the kingdom of heaven within. The images are outward, but their reflection is inward. The point is that we should ascend with him by going inward. It is a metaphor of returning to the source, alpha and omega, of leaving the fixation on the body behind and going to the body’s dynamic source.

MOYERS: Aren’t you undermining one of the great traditional doctrines of the classic Christian faith – that the burial and the resurrection of Jesus prefigures our own?

CAMPBELL: That would be a mistake in the reading of the symbol. That is reading the words in terms of prose instead of in terms of poetry, reading the metaphor in terms of the denotation instead of the connotation.

MOYERS: And poetry gets to the unseen reality.

CAMPBELL: That which is beyond even the concept of reality, that which transcends all thought. The myth puts you there all the time, gives you a line to connect with that mystery which you are.

Shakespeare said that art is a mirror held up to nature. And that’s what it is. The nature is your nature, and all of these wonderful poetic images of mythology are referring to something in you. When your mind is simply trapped by the image out there so that you never make the reference to yourself, you have misread the image.

The inner world is the world of your requirements and your energies and your structure and your possibilities that meets the outer world. And the outer world is the field of your incarnation. That’s where you are. You’ve got to keep both going. As Novalis said, &quot;The seat of the soul is there where the inner and outer worlds meet.&quot;

MOYERS: In classic Christian doctrine the material world is to be despised, and life is to be redeemed in the hereafter, in heaven, where our rewards come. But you say that if you affirm that which you deplore, you are affirming the very world which is our eternity at the moment.

CAMPBELL: Yes, that is what I’m saying, Eternity isn’t some later time. Eternity isn’t even a long time. Eternity has nothing to do with time. Eternity is that dimension of here and now that all thinking in temporal terms cuts off. And if you don’t get it here, you won’t get it anywhere. The problem with heaven is that you will be having such a good time there, you won’t even think of eternity. You’ll just have this unending delight in the beatific vision of God. But the experience of eternity right here and now, in all things, whether thought of as good or as evil, is the function of life.

CAMPBELL: This is an absolute necessity for anybody today. You must have a room, or a certain hour or so a day, where you don’t know what was in the newspapers that morning, you don’t know who your friends are, you don’t know what you owe anybody, you don’t know what anybody owes to you. This is a place where you can simply experience and bring forth what you are and what you might be, This is the place of creative incubation. At first you may find that nothing happens there. But if you have a sacred place and use it, something eventually will happen.

MOYERS: So the experience of God is beyond description, but we feel compelled to try to describe it?

CAMPBELL: That’s right. Schopenhauer, in his splendid essay called &quot;On an Apparent Intention in the Fate of the Individual,&quot; points out that when you reach an advanced age and look back over your lifetime, it can seem to have had a consistent order and plan, as though composed by some novelist. Events that when they occurred had seemed accidental and of little moment turn out to have been indispensable factors in the composition of a consistent plot. So who composed that plot? Schopenhauer suggests that just as your dreams are composed by an aspect of yourself of which your consciousness is unaware, so, too, your whole life is composed by the will within you. And just as people whom you will have met apparently by mere chance became leading agents in the structuring of your life, so, too, will you have served unknowingly as an agent, giving meaning to the lives of others, The whole thing gears together like one big symphony, with everything unconsciously structuring everything else. And Schopenhauer concludes that it is as though our lives were the features of the one great dream of a single dreamer in which all the dream characters dream, too; so that everything links to everything else, moved by the one will to life which is the universal will in nature.

It’s a magnificent idea – an idea that appears in India in the mythic image of the Net of Indra, which is a net of gems, where at every crossing of one thread over another there is a gem reflecting all the other reflective gems. Everything arises in mutual relation to everything else, so you can’t blame anybody for anything. It is even as though there were a single intention behind it all, which always makes some kind of sense, though none of us knows what the sense might be, or has lived the life that he quite intended.

MOYERS: And yet we all have lived a life that had a purpose. Do you believe that?

CAMPBELL: Wait a minute. Just sheer life cannot be said to have a purpose, because look at all the different purposes it has all over the place. But each incarnation, you might say, has a potentiality, and the mission of life is to live that potentiality. How do you do it,’ My answer is, &quot;Follow your bliss.&quot; There’s something inside you that knows when you’re in the center, that knows when you’re on the beam or off the beam, And if you get off the beam to earn money, you’ve lost your life. And if you stay in the center and don’t get any money, you still have your bliss.

MOYERS: I like the idea that it is not the destination that counts, it’s the journey.

CAMPBELL: Yes. As Karlfried Graf Durckheim says, &quot;When you’re on a journey, and the end keeps getting further and further away, then you realize that the real end is the journey.&quot;

The Navaho have that wonderful image of what they call the pollen path. Pollen is the life source, The pollen path is the path to the center. The Navaho say, &quot;Oh, beauty before me, beauty behind me, beauty to the right of me, beauty to the left of me, beauty above me, beauty below me, I’m on the pollen path,&quot;

MOYERS: Eden was not, Eden will be.

CAMPBELL: Eden is. &quot;The kingdom of the Father is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it.&quot;

MOYERS: Eden is – in this world of pain and suffering and death and violence?

CAMPBELL: That is the way it feels, but this is it, this is Eden. When you see the kingdom spread upon the earth, the old way of living in the world is annihilated. That is the end of the world, The end of the world is not an event to come, it is an event of psychological transformation, of visionary transformation. You see not the world of solid things but a world of radiance.

MOYERS: Is reincarnation also metaphor?

CAMPBELL: Certainly it is. When people ask, &quot;Do you believe in reincarnation,&quot; I just have to say, &quot;Reincarnation, like heaven, is a metaphor.&quot;

The metaphor in Christianity that corresponds to reincarnation is purgatory. If one dies with such a fixation on the things of this world that one's spirit is not ready to behold the beatific vision, then one has to undergo a purgation, one has to be purged clean of one's limitations. The limitations are what are called sins. Sin is ismply a limiting factor that limits your consciousness and fixes it in an inapproperiate condition.

In the Oriental metaphor, if you die in that condition, you come back again to have more experiences that will clarify, calrify, clarify, until you are released from these fixations. The reincarnating monad is the principle hero of Oriental myth. The monad puts on various personalities, life after life. Now the reincarnation idea is not that you and I as the personalities that we are will be reincarnated. The personality is what the monad throws off. Then the monad puts on another body, male or female, depending on what experiences are necessary for it to clear itself of this attachment to the field of time

MOYERS: And what does the idea of reincarnation suggest?

CAMPBELL: It suggests you are more than you think you are. There are dimensions of your being and a potential for realization and consciousness that are not included in your concept of yourself. Your life is much deeper and broader than you conceive it to be here. What you are living is but a fractional inkling of what is really within you, what gives you life, breadth, and depth. But you can live in terms of that depth. And when you can experience it, you suddenly see that all the religions are talking of that.

MOYERS: Who speaks in metaphors today?

CAMPBELL: All poets. Poetry is a metaphorical language.

MOYERS: A metaphor suggests potential.

CAMPBELL: Yes, but it also suugests the actuality that hides behind the visible aspect. The metaphor is the mask of God through which eternity is to be experienced.

MOYERS: You speak of poets and artists. What about the clergy?

CAMPBELL: I think our clergy is really not doing its proper work. It does not speak about the connations of the metaphors but is stuck with the ethics of good and evil.

MOYERS: So you think religion's great calling is the experience?

CAMPBELL: One of the wonderful things in the Catholic ritual is going to communion. There you are taught that this is the body and blood of the Savior. And you take it to you, and you turn inward, and there Christ is working within you. This is a way of inspiring a meditation on experiencing the spirit in you. You see people coming back from communion, and they are inward-turned, they really are.

[Morpheous]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The <span style="font-weight: bold">man</span> is not nearly important as the <span style="font-weight: bold">message</span>.

The proper question is whether or not the teachings of Jesus are true.

I for one believe that it is true that &quot;do unto others as you would have them do unto you&quot; would lead to a more harmonious World.

<span style="font-weight: bold">It matters not if Jesus was real. </span></div></div>
LOL at this thread... tell me something.... giving the teachings of christianity and the bible account of jesus crucifixion... I think you just dissed a man that the bible says has spilt his blood on the cross for you.
If David Blaine was around during the times in question he would probably be in the gospels too. Then again David Blaine has nothing on Jesus because him can't raise from the dead or raise others from the dead and enable the blind to see or the cripple to walk.

Then again some of those american evangelical pastors/preacher allegedly as seen on TV appear to make the criple walk and terminally ill instantly healthy lol... made them famous and loads a money too.

[H_O]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David_Mullings</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The <span style="font-weight: bold">man</span> is not nearly important as the <span style="font-weight: bold">message</span>.

The proper question is whether or not the teachings of Jesus are true.

I for one believe that it is true that &quot;do unto others as you would have them do unto you&quot; would lead to a more harmonious World.

<span style="font-weight: bold">It matters not if Jesus was real. </span></div></div>
LOL at this thread... tell me something.... giving the teachings of christianity and the bible account of jesus crucifixion... I think you just dissed a man that the bible says has spilt his blood on the cross for you.

I tell you this... If David Blaine was around during the times in question he would probably be in the gospels too. Then again David Blaine has nothing on Jesus because him can't raise from the dead or raise others from the dead and enable the blind to see or the cripple to walk.

Then again some of those american evangelical pastors/preacher allegedly as seen on TV appear to make the criple walk and terminally ill instantly healthy lol... made them famous and loads a money too.
</div></div>
thats the whole point here--you figure a guy who could heal the sick, raise the dead-- you figure no matter what period of time throughout civilization--theyd have his face carved in a mountain like the 4 presidents in Mt rushmore and there would be 100% unequivical proof other than a publication issued by the Romans..
and secondly-there is no proof there ever was a crucifixtion.---you notice the hardcore christians here have stayed far from this thread? they dont wanna hear it cuz they have a mindset.

[Morpheous]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

Everyone are entitled to their mindset... we included they would say. I believe (and we all BELIEVE what we choose) that jesus probably did exist despite the lack of evidence. However I do not believe this man called jesus could perform miracles as described or raise from the dead once he died.

Remember jesus as told by the bible was to save the gentiles (via the cross) meaning everyone around the world. Why stay in one little back water place and perform miracles of such feat when the whole world filled with the disabled, sick and dying awaits his help???

Like Martin Luthor King.. he was probably a good man of peace and died because of his beliefs... a simple kind man like Ghandi without the frills and miracles. He lived and died like any other good men before and after him but the 'gospel' wishes to immortalise him and give him superhuman powers. Ancient history is filled with merlins, witches and magicians doing all sorts of 'miracles' each trying to out do the other and like all of these people mentioned, they had their disciples, students, apprentices and followers.

[H_O]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

so you think he existed? so the immaculate conception--born of a virgin?

its a story with no foundation.

[Morpheous]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Error_403</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you think he existed? so the immaculate conception--born of a virgin?

its a story with no foundation. </div></div>
I did not say my belief was based on facts.
It is not based on christianity or religion either. It's just a belief. Unlike religious folks I am open to facts that can change my belief one way or the other. My mind is open not closed.

I also belief that I will live to be 100. Now whether I live to that age is a different story. I am in my 30s so I have a long way to go.

[H_O]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Error_403</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you think he existed? so the immaculate conception--born of a virgin?

its a story with no foundation. </div></div>
I did not say my belief was based on facts.
It is not based on christianity or religion either. It's just a belief. Unlike religious folks I am open to facts that can change my belief one way or the other. My mind is open not closed.

I also belief that I will live to be 100. Now whether I live to that age is a different story. I am in my 30s so I have a long way to go. </div></div>


youd make a great politician

[johnnycakes]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

Belief in the divinity of Christ or in any God for that matter is a matter of FAITH.

Fact has nothing to do with religion or is just a side issue.

Whatever you truly believe is real.

Faith cannot be argued and it is a waste of time to try.

[H_O]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Belief in the divinity of Christ or in any God for that matter is a matter of FAITH.

Fact has nothing to do with religion or is just a side issue.

Whatever you truly believe is real.

Faith cannot be argued and it is a waste of time to try. </div></div>

you mean like the turtle i saw trying to cross I-95? I had faith in the little guy getting across cuz i avoided hitting him, then looked in my mirror only to see a pick up truck aim for it an squish it--you mean that kinda faith?
your right though. you cant argue with someone whose repeatedly been told theres a god 365 days a year non stop from the begining of there life and constantly brainwashed by the religious institution.

i guess it be the same as telling a 3 year old that theres little green monsters that turn invisible running underground. theyd grow up swearing its the truth because theyve been consistantly told this.

[Morpheous]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Error_403</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: More4us</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Error_403</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you think he existed? so the immaculate conception--born of a virgin?

its a story with no foundation. </div></div>
I did not say my belief was based on facts.
It is not based on christianity or religion either. It's just a belief. Unlike religious folks I am open to facts that can change my belief one way or the other. My mind is open not closed.

I also belief that I will live to be 100. Now whether I live to that age is a different story. I am in my 30s so I have a long way to go. </div></div>


youd make a great politician </div></div>
Would you prefer if I told you I believe that Dr. King existed but he didn't have superhuman powers.
My point was simple enough. Religion is built on a belief system, without it religion has no foundation. Members of religious sects have to believe. I am simply illustrating how belief is a personal choice and does not necessarily base on facts or even right or wrong. I am not religious and I don't like politics either. They are both the same thing in my opinion. Good to know however, johnnycakes point didn't fly over your head lol

[j-can]

Re: Did Jesus really exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johnnycakes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Belief in the divinity of Christ or in any God for that matter is a matter of FAITH.

Fact has nothing to do with religion or is just a side issue.

Whatever you truly believe is real.

Faith cannot be argued and it is a waste of time to try. </div></div>

I now believe this statement to be true....