WELCOME HERETIC: F&R SUMMER FEATURE

[heretic]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MGee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">do you think that a scientist can have faith?</div></div>I do. Scientists can, and have been people of faith. However, faith isn't science, and the scientific method makes no allowance for faith.

You don't, for example, hear scientists saying 'I have faith that Hydrochloric acid and Sodium Hydroxide will react to form table salt and water. People only introduce faith when they have no good reasons for a belief.

One of my good friends is a biologist. In almost all matters (scientific and otherwise) he's quite rational and clear thinking. However, as soon as the science rubs up against his religious beliefs he shuts off his brain. I personally find the cognitive dissonance bizarre, but it works for him.

[heretic]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why do you think it is that science does such a bad job in extinguishing ignorance. one of my hugest pet peeves is to have to argue something that at face value, should be seen as ridiculous, and yet still has a foothold in the public imagination which requires a careful leading through the wilderness so to speak, so as not to offend. </div></div>I think there are lots of reasons for this. Here are some (not exhaustive).

1. Rigorous (or scientific) thinking is harder than the alternative, and requires a bit of mental disciple. Worse, rigorous thinking often stirs up more questions than you started with. People like nice, clear cut, black and white answers and you often don't get that when you apply rigor.

2. Most of the educational systems do horrible jobs in teaching people how to think, because again, the alternative of teaching them what to think is far more straightforward.

3. The people who know better rarely have motivation to evangelise - and we end up with this ivory-tower syndrome. Imagine say you're a scientist: You go to work with people like you. If you teach, for the most part you have a certain caliber of students (science majors tend to be self selecting, the slower students major in psychology, political science, or something ending with 'studies'). You hang out with people like you, and you probably go home to a smart significant other (or family) that thinks as you do. For the most part you never have to interact with lots of ignorance, and you can probably think of better things to do than to go out and preach the gospel of the scientific method to the great unwashed masses. Some random guy off the street doesn't believe in evolution, or doesn't buy into the Big Bang theory, or doesn't understand the scientific method: not your problem. Most of those in the ivory towers are stirred into activism only when the ignorant masses lay siege to the towers - banning stem cell research, dressing up the Genesis story and trying to pass it off as science. Perhaps what the scientific community needs are more personalities that can bridge the gap during the less hostile times - more Sagans and Asimovs.

4. Nonsensical beliefs often perpetuate because there are no clear penalties for holding them. The moron who fervently believes the world is flat suffers nothing - except, perhaps a little public scorn and ridicule. This is particularly true of nonsensical beliefs that rail against the scientific establishment. The barely literate deacon with the bible under his arm sees himself as qualified to evaluate and dismiss the Theory of Evolution, and he does so at every chance. He is wrong, but there's no cost - the ghost of Darwin won't rise up and drag him to Galapagos where he'll spend eternity as a monkey - so it's easy for him to remain wrong.

You will notice, however, that when there are clear penalties then it's easier to modify the thinking. Mr. Deacon and his bible are much less likely to rail against the medical sciences establishment when his daughter is sick because the cost of being wrong is clear: she may die.

[remo]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

heretic,what was your previous name?

[heretic]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">heretic,what was your previous name? </div></div>I've always been heretic.

[remo]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heretic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">heretic,what was your previous name? </div></div>I've always been heretic. </div></div>

really,I dont recognize the name...I need to get out more often

[Diplomat]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heretic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) Do you find yourself intolerant of people who believe in God?</div></div>No. To each his own. I may think your beliefs are stupid, and I won't apologize for that, but we can get along.</div></div>
You have consistently used words - even in this thread - such as &quot;stupid&quot;, &quot;moron&quot;, and so on in reference to people of faith or their beliefs. Is it par for the course to insult people whose beliefs (regardless of which) you disagree with, or is it some sort of &quot;intellectual arrogance&quot; that goes back to your position that faith and any combination of rationality, logic, and science are mutually exclusive?

[heretic]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have consistently used words - even in this thread - such as &quot;stupid&quot;, &quot;moron&quot;, and so on in reference to people of faith or their beliefs. Is it par for the course to insult people whose beliefs (regardless of which) you disagree with, or is it some sort of &quot;intellectual arrogance&quot; that goes back to your position that faith and any combination of rationality, logic, and science are mutually exclusive?</div></div>
Part of it is intellectual arrogance in a 'matter of fact' sort of way. Some people are better at football than most others, some are better artists than others. I happen to be more intelligent than most. I don't see that as anything to be proud of - I just accept it as how it is. To pretend otherwise is as nonsensical as pretending that I'm as as good as basketball as other people. False humility is no better than arrogance.

I have no problems with disagreement, I don't expect people to agree with me. Sensible people can and will disagree. I do, however, find the notion that all beliefs are deserving of respect to be utterly absurd. Some beliefs are stupid, and I won't apologize for thinking so. If you believe that the sun is the product of the Lava God's daily bowel movement then you hold a stupid belief. That doesn't necessarily mean that the person holding the belief is stupid as sensible people can have stupid beliefs. I have friends and family members with stupid beliefs (I might even have a few myself). I don't think they're stupid, however what they believe is nonsensical and I refuse to pretend otherwise.

[H_O]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

Do you think if we could convice 1.5 billion muslims theres no such thing as &quot;Mohammed&quot; and convince how many billion christians theres no such thing as God and rid the world of this foolish belief systym- you think the world would be a better place without religion and what it really stands for?

[Compry]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

Heretic what is your opinion on the following statements based on the folks who made them:

&quot;Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.&quot; -Bertrand Russell (athiest)

&quot;Without God life makes no sense.&quot; -Andrei Bitov (Russian novelist, athiest)

[Mutty]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Compray</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heretic what is your opinion on the following statements based on the folks who made them:

&quot;Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.&quot; -Bertrand Russell (athiest)

&quot;Without God life makes no sense.&quot; -Andrei Bitov (Russian novelist, athiest)
</div></div>

Don't mean to interrupt, but on the second quote, isn't that a little misleading when you consider he wrote that <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> he became a Christian not while he was an atheist?

[heretic]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Compray</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heretic what is your opinion on the following statements based on the folks who made them:

&quot;Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.&quot; -Bertrand Russell (athiest)

&quot;Without God life makes no sense.&quot; -Andrei Bitov (Russian novelist, athiest)
</div></div>Life doesn't have to make sense, or have a purpose. I agree with both in the sense that there is no purpose or meaning to life other than what I choose to invent for myself.

[Compry]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

It's amazing how we both see something different in those two statements. Again, it's a case of whether the glass half full or half empty.

[Wahalla]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

are you aware what the orgin of your name is ????

[heretic]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are you aware what the orgin of your name is ???? </div></div>No. I just happened to draw those 7 letters in a game of scrabble.

[Wahalla]

Re: WELCOME HERETIC: F&amp;R SUMMER FEATURE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heretic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wahalla</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are you aware what the orgin of your name is ???? </div></div>No. I just happened to draw those 7 letters in a game of scrabble. </div></div>

it come from Hairekietos &quot;to be able to chose&quot;

I always thought that that is the acme of inteligence... The ability to make a choice based on personal independent thought which was how the early church used it before it came into popular use...