Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

[DC]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
I never heard of churches in Jamaica encouraging their members to vote, handing out voting guides, comming out as a body against corruption, or proposing any economic or socia-polical direction they would like to the the country that they as individuals are citizens of.

Hey Mr TG,
Believe it or not, the leaders of the church I used to attend in JA also encouraged their members to vote. Based on my observations from my visits to JA, there is a growing awareness of the tremendous need to be a part of the socio-political future for JA. However, I must say I find this awareness more prevalent among the younger generation of christians. I see attempts being made. The Rev. Al Miller who spearheaded the JANU comes to mind. And I agree with you..political education is part of the solution..but what other practical steps you feel is quite necessary to being about a possible solution??

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by SisterNancy:

1. Do you believe it is possible to elect politicians who are willing to challenge/change the tribalism and clientelism --- enough to fundamentally CHANGE the way government functions?

2. If you answer yes to the first question, who are the individuals that you think could do this (names)?

Yes it is possible to elect good politicians. The problem is (as people who understand these things know) it is almost self defeating to pour new wine into old bottles. The problem is that Jamaicans are very conservative. Jamaicans accept a political elite, a church and their place in the scheme of things.
They have done the requisite thing by distrusting the current political class of the two major parties, but they have not overthrown unswerving devotion to the leaders of the church. They have not decided that as a collective that they are not of a class below the Church or the political class.
The distrust of the political class is replaced by apathy and since we are basically devoted to religion and our place in the schema, the revolution has not arrived and will not arrive till we can over come these hurdles.

Basically the Citizenry needs to be more involved in the political direction of the country. This means churches instead of offering National Prayers must now come out against every breach by the currnet elected politicians, from the local level to the National Level. They must start to educate their congregation in matters of voting, how to vote, why you vote, and how to use your vote and position as a citizen of Jamaica as a protest.

The politics of the Country will not change until the masses decide, enmass, that they want change.
So even if someone with all the good in the world put himself up for office under the banner any of these parties, he/she will soon be buried under the avalanche of corruption that is the History of these parties, further more he/she cannot depend on the masses for support because our conditioning show that most of the people who go to polls do so based on not what is right, wrong, or good for Jamaica, but what personal benefit can come of that vote.

3. Regarding the neo-colonial/neo-slavery nature of relations with the U.S., Canadian and British companies functioning in Jamaica that suck out resources and money that rightfully should belong to Jamaicans; not to mention the stranglehold policies of the IMF and World Bank --- do you believe that there are potential elected officials who would be willing to challenge this, i.e., nationalization of much of the economy, or at least to a degree that Jamaicans are guaranteed a fair share of the pie --- including the opportunity to work in/own such resources long-term (I mean THE people --- the masses --- not the elite who have always run Jamaica and benefitted from mimicking the colonial powers)?[/b]
I do not know about rightfully belonging to Jamaicans. In 70`s this was thinking of the Manley Government. All or most of the major companies that were foreign owned were, nationalized, sold to Jamaicans, or abandoned.
In the 90`s under the PNP all or most of our Utilties were sold off to foreign nationals, worse there are more foreign companies operating here that are not production based but are merely service companies, that are capitializing on on our unfullfilled thirst for consumables.

Looking from the 70`s were have a clean slate with most of our companies in our own hands and all of our utilities, what have we done with it? It was the Socialists that put us in the IMF`s path. Socialism and Capitalism in Jamaica was interpeted to mean a deepening of the Established Tribal System. It meant the PNP taking the sides with corrupt Soviet Policies and the JLP taking sides with the CIA and the USA Foreign Policy, in effect we placed oursleves into the Camps of the Cold War Combatants, while locally we engaged in a Civil War and a destruction of our own Socio-Economic Systems, the effects of this is now being manifested.
There is very good quote from Fledgist, that I had saved and used a few times, but in effect Jamaica will not work under a Socialist Policial and the attending economic model, neither will is work under a Capitalist Political and its corresponding model. What is important is that we based our expections on sustainable development.

The is unreal to think that without matching production an Island of 2.6 Million can support:
<ul type="square">[*]Centennial Wireless[*]Digicell[*]Cable and Wireless[*]Walmart[*]PriceSmart[*]FedEX[*]DHL[*]UPS?[*]Western Union[*]Mirant[*]Burger King[*]McDonalds[*]KFC[*].....and other totally serviced based foreign outfits.[/list]

Not that foreign investments are bad, but what is the value added?
What kind of pressure does these companies put on the already short foreign exchange when time for capitial purchase or repatriation of earnings come up?
[ QUOTE ]
4. When you talk of the people electing officials that have the interest of the masses at heart, are you talking about a peoples' movement that would force change through the power of the masses?

I mean an educated population the kind I described in the answer to questiion #1-2, that have cast off their traditional dependence on political largesse, have destroyed the myth of a Political Ruling Class, have destroyed their faith in the current leaderless, leadership of the church and have decided that they need to gain control of who gets elected, when they get elected, and on what basis they get elected.

5. Do you believe that redistribution of wealth (socialism), as well as guaranteed equal opportunity for education and employment for Jamaicans could turn the nation around?

Well basically my answer to socialism is found at question #3. We have had guarantees of equal education that was never fulfilled, an educated population cannot be easily manupilated. Education for all would be much more progressive than any attempt at redistribution of wealth in Jamaica.

6. Do you think the mass exodus of monied Jamaicans (and others, too) that happened during the Manley years would happen at this time if a leader proposed similar plans today?[/quote ]
We are benefitting from such mass exodus. A lot the foreign exchange that is been purchased locally goes to service Real Estate and other holdings held by these runnaways that have returned to Jamaica physically , but with no real investments in production only investments in Government Kite Bonds. It is the polices of this present Governemnt that has stifled production and deepend the stagnation of Jamaica.
In fact there are fears that as this crises deepens there might be a new exodus.

So now the Policies of PNP Government who formed the Socialist Government in the 70`s lead to an exodus (of course they had help from the JLP and their henchmen)......We fast forward to the PNP Government of the 90`s to this day, whose economic policies are based on Capitalism and they have widened and deepened the problems.
In between that we have had a few JLP Capitalist Economic Models, which now look like a Rose Bud, based on their moderate success, but nothing to radically change the direction of Jamaica.

What has not change is out total dependence upon the Historic Euro-Colonial Model that we have inherited. We are still dependant on Cash Crops, outdated agreements, traditional markets. The common denomitors here are corrupt politics, failed socio-economic models, and continual dependence upon old masters and handouts from International Backers. We have ignored the warnings and opportunities to broadened our trading parterneships with other countires in the region and the world
[ QUOTE ]
7. Do you think nationalization would prompt George Bush to put Jamaica on his greed list --- the list of nations that he wants the U.S. to run/control?

The USA have already gained control of some of the most important aspects of our Sovereignty, they have decided that our soft spot is our corrupt political system, and the war on drugs, and our failing economy, so now we have all kinds of little agreements that have basically put us in check already. I doubt that any Jamaican Economic model would be based upon Nationalization, now or in the future.

Hope I have answered some of your questions......

One Love!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb] I have seen elsewhere that you say that a certain writer knows nothing about the realities in Jamaica. Educate all that you can. Get people involved. I see many economic refugees participate in this forum. Imagine a grassroots movement of citizens or former citizens that genuinely care about the Jamaican people. What could they accomplish? Never underestimate the power of the love of the people and the country. [/qb]

Well that is patiently true, I have no apologies, even native Jamaicans for the most part do not understand the Socio-political realities. Your so called Economic Refugees here on the Board will not be in any better position to help or liberate Jamaica or Jamaicans if there is not grass root understanding of the issue or call to duty as citizens of our country. Here again I stress the main point of contact with the people, religion, has acted against the interests of the people and are closely allied to the interests of the ruling class, and corrupt politics in Jamaica.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Silent River:
[qb] The Rev. Al Miller who spearheaded the JANU comes to mind. And I agree with you..political education is part of the solution..but what other practical steps you feel is quite necessary to being about a possible solution??
[/qb]

I think REv Al Miller and Pastor Blair are very poor examples, however people can learn from them.

The church as a body needs to shift their focus from papering over the ills of society with prayer and go to war against all moral lapses.

They need not just to focus on elections but political, social and economic education. More Church Leaders need to seek political offices at all representational levels. The Church needs to remove the stigma that they place on representational politics. What they need to point out is that our current reperesentives may be bad, but politics and voting is a necessary component of our lives and nothing moves in Jamaica without politics.

One Love!

[Diplomat]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb] ...The church as a body needs to shift their focus from papering over the ills of society with prayer and go to war against all moral lapses.

They need not just to focus on elections but political, social and economic education. More Church Leaders need to seek political offices at all representational levels. The Church needs to remove the stigma that they place on representational politics. What they need to point out is that our current reperesentives may be bad, but politics and voting is a necessary component of our lives and nothing moves in Jamaica without politics.

One Love! [/qb]

You keep making the above points, and yet I am still waiting for you to address the issue of Jamaicans refusing to embrace alternative political parties as has been demonstrated over the years. It is one thing to be able to finger the problem as one perceives it, but isn't there an obligation to offer solutions? I totally agree with you that "More Church Leaders need to seek political offices at all representational levels.", but they do need the majority of people to vote for them in these constituencies, don't they? It seems to me that if the Church has brainwashed people, they should have no problem securing these votes. The problem is when the votes are counted, it is still the traditional two parties that walk away with the majority. Are you suggesting that the Church align itself with either political party and run candidates under their platforms?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by CEW:
You keep making the above points,...

The questions are been repeated and I am answering them as they are asked.

....and yet I am still waiting for you to address the issue of Jamaicans refusing to embrace alternative political parties as has been demonstrated over the years.

You do not overcome years of political division betwenn two main parties overnight. Getting into office is not the beginning nor the end. If the church become pro-active and present itself as a threat to the traditional hegemony, present itself a moral force, present itself Socially responsible and politically educated body then they can put up any candidate for office. Losing a battle for office does not mean that you have lost the race, in fact Christains should know that more than anyone.

You must be prepared to take advantage of the opportunity for change, before you seek that change. The story of the The Wise and Foolish Virgins is well known, your must trim your lamps by educating the masses so when the Bridegroom/Bride comes they will be able to light his/her way!

....It is one thing to be able to finger the problem as one perceives it, but isn't there an obligation to offer solutions? I totally agree with you that "More Church Leaders need to seek political offices at all representational levels.", but they do need the majority of people to vote for them in these constituencies, don't they?

So how come I provide no solutions when you are agreeing with me?

.....It seems to me that if the Church has brainwashed people, they should have no problem securing these votes. The problem is when the votes are counted, it is still the traditional two parties that walk away with the majority.

So which Christian based party(s) have vied for office? See above....a battle is not a war....you are not going to overcome years of brainwashing and wrong education or no education overnight. Yes I know I repeated myself, asked again!

.... Are you suggesting that the Church align itself with either political party and run candidates under their platforms?

The church must provide the support by comming out against corruption at all levels, this will provide the vehicle for change.
At some point in time you must reckon with the PNP and the JLP, you can join one or the other and try to change these corrupt organizations from within, not impossible, but it will be long and filled with lots of fustration.

You can work outside of either, work with another party or form your own. That will be just as tough, long and filled with fustration.

You can work independently of any party, seek office as an independent. That will be almost impossible and not a recommended course.

As you can see every choice is difficult, but these are sacrafices that are the duty of the citizen in the face of what is happening now. Above all, these avenues are only open with a supportive, educated citizenry, (how many times have I repeated myself?), and does not necessary envision a General election victory, but local efforts as well.

One Love!

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

One point that I would like to make about the Christian faith is that the bible says that it is an abundant life that we can lead. We are meant to work and to work hard. We are not meant to kneel praying over and over again for wealth. We are to get our hands dirty to attain that abundant life.

Without the will to improve nothing will get done. Education will help but motivation is the key.

While a church may get involved in politics why would it be their responsibility to initiate the change? If the church is the problem than how can they also be the solution? The idea of letting the 'other guy' do it will not work. It will take the dedication of many who are willing to sacrifice for the love of the country. With over 10,000 members on this board there have to be more than a handful that are willing!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Originally posted by Tim:
[qb] ....While a church may get involved in politics why would it be their responsibility to initiate the change? If the church is the problem than how can they also be the solution? The idea of letting the 'other guy' do it will not work. It will take the dedication of many who are willing to sacrifice for the love of the country. With over 10,000 members on this board there have to be more than a handful that are willing! [/qb]

You have answered your own question(s) above and might I add that the church in Jamaica have declared/held out themselves to be the moral center. They have already dip their feet in by prayer breakfasts and giving (except in some cases) instructions to their flock to stay out of representational politics, so if you acknowledge that you have the power to determine participation, then you can be called on your decisions.

Religion after politics is possibly the most important thing in Jamaica. All people are citizen of Jamaica be they religious as not therefore all have a responsibility, indeed duty to be engaged, not tune out and turn off.

Peace!

[wonbyone]

Re: Religious Neo-Slavery and Jamaica

Were there candidates that you consider as forward thinking and of good moral fiber? If so then rally behind them. Support them. If not then why should anyone, including church members, support them at the polls? The key is, as you say, involvement but the right candidates with a heart for the country are necessary.

Venturing back to the casino idea, I was wondering whether anyone out there has been to Nassau lately? It has been 13 years or so since I was there but the same situation that existed in Atlantic City existed there. Paradise Island, which was owned by Merv Griffin back then, was a beautiful place. Nassau itself was rundown with many just hanging out with their bottle in a brown bag. Has it changed? It is up to the Jamaican people to decide which route they wish to take. I think that they must believe in themselves and market what they know...themselves, their country and their heritage.