Is there racism in the caribbean?

[rufian]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

Originally posted by tonic:
[qb]....
Samuel you make a valid point that ethnic differences in many Africans countries create ethnic conflict. I agree that that prejudice similar to racial prejudice creates conflicts because of the superior and inferior position of the society. Yes, slavery is still a problem in some part of Africa but ethnic conflict creates justification for racism. The weakness in that position is that it fail to address how the heirarcy was created. Look at the Hutu and the Tusti(sorry the spelling is incorrect) in Africa and you would say that this is ethnic conflict based on superior and inferior position if you did not realized that these group use to live peacefully before colonialism. What created[/qb]

There had always been conflicts before colonialism.
I am afraid that the ethnic conflicts have racial backgrounds - not because they are all black by colour. The biggest conflicts in Africa are not just between one ethnic group and its cousins but between groups having great variance.
Like the Hausas and Yoruba, Tutsi and Hutu and more recently in Ivory Coast.
The tall, straight nose people come from North seen? An dem na have no call there much less for go reign over the pigmies in Ruanda. Parallel to what happened in India.
All these examples solidify my belief that the whites met these differences, used this to justify the superiority of the whiter and came to the conclusion(because them a de whitest) that they are the most superior. Hitler and all his African references is my witness [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Northerners have always been invading and dominating the native groups. In colonial times the Belgians favour the group that could not pass under a 5ft high pole and more liken to them.
Before white intrusion, the Berber, Arabs and the like exalted themselves over the blacks(by war) who called them whites. Places like Niger and Mauritania come to mind. Sudan is the funniest, because the so-called Arabs now hardly different to them, but a dem dem a fight and a dem a mek dem slaves. So I would say we came with this master-slave | whiter-darker relationship to the Caribbean which is now normal to us.

[tonic]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

Simpleman yes I feel that one day the modern form of racism will end. Before colonialism Africans and Europeans interacted and even married( did you know the famous African general Hanibal married a Spanish woman). Even Italy had many Aficans living there. Although people recognized racial differences, Africans and other non Europeans were not thought of as sub humams. It is the classification of the Africansas blacks(any non European) and as a sub species or a different kind of man that was the legal and moral justification for the enslavement of non whites. The modern form of racism was created because European businesses needed a way to justify stealing other people lands.

Samuel there was even a black newspaper man in the 50 who jumped into the hotel swimming pool to protest that blacks in Jamaica were not allow to used the pools. Samuel even I was suprised how bad racism was and still is in Jamaica.

Sukuna how did you know my eyes do not open too wide and that I am a boss? Another good guess that I have nothing but love for women of all race [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] .
quote:
"Racial conflict is only same sex.".
What you should have said is that certain men have penis envy because they know what their women really want.
Sukuna my point was that Hutu and Tusti lived to gether, coexisted and even intermaried before colonialism even though there was ethnic differnces. There was no history of genocide between these two groups before colonialism. It was colonialism that fostered the hostility that led to the genocide. Sukuna was slave systems in some African tribes the same as the slave system imposed by the Europeans and the Arabs.

[rufian]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

Sukuna my point was that Hutu and Tusti lived to gether, coexisted and even intermaried before colonialism even though there was ethnic differnces. There was no history of genocide between these two groups before colonialism. It was colonialism that fostered the hostility that led to the genocide. Sukuna was slave systems in some African tribes the same as the slave system imposed by the Europeans and the Arabs.

And my point is that blacks marrying whites increases racism against blacks. But a fu ayu fantasy world dat.

You wish that these groups did live together in harmony, but that is not so, they have fought and the Northeners suppressed them, this suppression increased. How much they marry each other I have never seen statistics because the two still are extremely different from each other. The supression increased with the coming of the whites and it is because push come to shove why the genocide. However, the supression existed before the whites came because the northerners have no rights to be ruling them.

Because the white man never recorded genocide does not means that it never happen, after all, them just a come. Groups have always removing the others and this act of theirs can be categorized as such.

All such wars in Africa happens because the other group does not belong there never mind to be suppressing the native group. That is why it happened. All over Africa you find these northerners, ex-nomads and Arab-related blacks suppressing the black before the whites came.

Many of the black ethnic groups now in West Africa were chased there by these northerners, for example, the Fulani behind the Dogon, the Hausa behind the Yoruba. Dont tell me you never heard about all the Jihads dem used to have? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
As a matter of fact they are only now living peacefully with each other because of colonialism. There is really less war now.

Obviously it is this very ethnic diversity which we create that come back to haunt and enslave us.

The slavery system imposed by the Africans on themselves is the same as the Arabs and whites used on them - unfortunately. The Arabs and whites only handle the Africans the way they handle themselves, if it is a little worse them deserve it.

[barosa]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

Originally posted by tonic:

Simpleman yes I feel that one day the modern form of racism will end. Before colonialism Africans and Europeans interacted and even married( did you know the famous African general Hanibal married a Spanish woman).

Tonic,...Hanibal's wife being Spanish doesn't mean she was white. How do we know that she wasn't black, half-white or a descendant of the moors? ...Just thought I'd ask.

[samuel]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

the hutu and tutsis may have lived together peacefully before the arrival of the europeans . how would have this peace been established ? possibly by the results of wars over many generations ,in which the tutsi supremacy was established and generally accepted .
basically ,the tustis were the elite ; hutus ,slaves and serfs . pygmies ?..well .
the europeans found a complex feudal system ,which it was far more pragmatic to use than destroy .

in a similar manner , the british , in general , recognised the tradional rulers of west africa and maintained their status , albeit under colonialist rule .

[rufian]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

Originally posted by samuel:
[qb]...the tustis were the elite;

hutus ,slaves and serfs . pygmies ?..well .
[/qb]

I guess the pygmies were contended to be the slaves of the tutsis then.

Just like our high coloured is our elites and we live peacefully together till people like Garvey come

[tonic]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

barosa asked:
"Tonic,... Hanibal's wife being Spanish doesn"t mean she was white. How do we know that she wasn't black half-white or a decendant of the moors?"

Great question. Because many Europeans still do not want admit how the Africans influenced and impacted Europe. To anwser your question, I read it in two different books( one by a white author and the other by Jon Henrik Clarke, a famous black afrocentric historian). Still, knowing the history of the moors in Spain I am not totally certain she was white.

The story of Hanibal was that when he went to war with Italy, he married a white woman from a royal family in Spain in an effort to forge an alliance with other European countries. Hanibal wanted to show a bond with some Europeans so they would not join Italy in fighting against him. The European countries turn against him anyway and that contributed to his eventual defeat.

Sukuna said:
" And my point is that blacks marrying whites increase racism against blacks."

Yes, that statement maybe true but it is blaming the victims of racism for the racism. If blacks knew their place in a racist society, then whites would not have to engaged in racist behaviors. "The trick is to ask yourself if you are using white supremacist rational to analyse white racism" said a black study professor. Even when it is written and documented in any book, I still never trust it until I see the sources.

Because the white man never recorded genocide does not mean it never happen.

You are asking me to argue the negative of something even though there is no proof that it happen. No, my point was not that they lived together in total harmony. My point is that there was no evidence of ethnic genocide betwwen the hutu and tusti before the manipulations of the Europeans.

Although I find any form of slavery preverse and depraved, there was differences between the Africans slave systems and the European and Arab slave system. The Africans system had element of the indentured servants where the enslaved Africans were released and given citenship status. The Europeans system was a chattel system or a wage slave. The master-slave dialouge only make sense in a white supremacist system and we must be more careful not to use racist rhetoric to analysed African society.

[gmarieggers]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

In answer to your orginal question...

Are there people breathing there...

[rufian]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tonic:
[qb]barosa asked:
...
Sukuna said:
" And my point is that blacks marrying whites increase racism against blacks."

Yes, that statement maybe true but it is blaming the victims of racism for the racism. If blacks knew their place in a racist society, then whites would not have to engaged in racist behaviors. "The trick is to ask yourself if you are using white supremacist rational to analyse white racism" said a black study professor. Even when it is written and documented in any book, I still never trust it until I see the sources.
[/b][/qb]
I am saying all of this except I dont see when a black person create a element that will cause racism to him a few generations later that he is the victim. He is most certainly not the victim but the source.

[qb]
Because the white man never recorded genocide does not mean it never happen.

You are asking me to argue the negative of something even though there is no proof that it happen. No, my point was not that they lived together in total harmony. My point is that there was no evidence of ethnic genocide betwwen the hutu and tusti before the manipulations of the Europeans.

[/qb]
If the tutsis were the elites then not much manipulation was necessary. The tutsis didnt fall from heaven there.
From my view what the hutus did was remove the source of their oppression - an oppression which had been going on for long. You don't know how they felt under this circumstance. It is just like in the Caribbean we seem to be living peacefully but those below are not happy with their status. And what you call manipulation, I call when push come to shove. genocide is just as bad as being dominated by foreigners - the tutsis in this case.

[qb]
Although I find any form of slavery preverse and depraved, there was differences between the Africans slave systems and the European and Arab slave system. The Africans system had element of the indentured servants where the enslaved Africans were released and given citenship status. [/qb]
Citizenship status??? You sure?? Once a slave always a slave? The identity is ethnic in this case is the only which counts and not a state - so I cant see how citizenship will would be granted either. Isnt it hard to say where the African influence is and the Arabian one? The influences flow both ways.
[qb]
The Europeans system was a chattel system or a wage slave. The master-slave dialouge only make sense in a white supremacist system and we must be more careful not to use racist rhetoric to analysed African society.[/qb]
In Africa all over there are slave castes. And such a caste excercises superiority and inferiority. Your rhetoric reminds me of one of those afrocentric ones, where all was well in Africa till the white man came.

[tonic]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

Sukuna said:
" Your rhetoric remind me of one those afrocentric ones, where everything was well in Africa till the white man came."

Yes, I would agree with with you that my rhetoric has been an afrocentric one. However, when did I say everything in Africa was well before the white man came. Slavery was and is a problem in the world, not just Africa. The Romans had slaves fighting to the death for amusement. It would be incredulous for me to deny that slavery existed in Africa before the europeans entered the picture. I would not want to excuse the Africans who sold Africans to the Europeans because they profitted from the selling out their people.

Where I feel we disagree strongly is that chattel slavery was different from all other forms of slavery, in particular African slavery. Slavery in Africa was not confused with the notion of superiority and inferiority unlike chattel slavery. Slaves in Africa enjoyed social and individual rights- such as marriage, freedom to raise family, worship their own God and speak in their own language. African slaves were not regarded as property. Slavery was seen as punishment for criminals and prisoners of war. It was not uncommon for African owners to marry slave women and adopt slave children who became full members of the family. In Ghana, all ethnic groups integrated slaves into the family. In Nigera, ethnic groups such as the Yourba, Igbo, Aboh and many more integrated slaves into their kin. Only a few African ethnic groups did not integrate slaves into their families. One slave even became a king and many other slaves were sent to different region to rule. The largest percentage of the pre colonial slaves were prisoners of war.

Chattel slavery was motivated by greed and that is why many of the enslaved Africans were taken from argricultural regions to work the plantations. If you do not believe me get Eric Williams books on slavery. Chattel slavery was a brutal industry if you do not believe me look it up.

The point is that in this discussion on racism in the Caribbean certain words are being used as if their meaning are unversal in all cultures. Why is that people are trying to look at the parallels and not the differences if not to make excuse for how brutal chattel slavery was?

Ask yourself, where are you getting you infomation on the hutu and tusti?

[rufian]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

[qb]Slavery in Africa was not confused with the notion of superiority and inferiority unlike chattel slavery. [/qb]
So long as there is a caste system it is. And you dont know us very well do you? I am looking at a more greater expansion of the meaning of slavery when applied to Africans, us included. It is not just slavery because we say so.

[qb]Slaves in Africa enjoyed social and individual rights- such as marriage, freedom to raise family, worship their own God and speak in their own language. [/qb]
You generalize Africa a lot here. I think you are refering to West Africa and not even so much of it neither, because those groups related to the Arabs (noticable by their high muslim percentage) does have an Arabian way of dealing with slaves. For example, in Niger, Sudan, Senegal and so on.

[qb]African slaves were not regarded as property. [/qb]
I would disagree, if the slave is not free to leave then he is property, if he should obey orders and only do as I see he is property, I hold his freedom in my hands.

[qb]Slavery was seen as punishment for criminals and prisoners of war.[/qb]
Tribes were enslaved and children who were disobedient were sold into slavery in West Africa. Never hear bout to do hard labour?
Please not to forget it is them who gave many of their own into slavery. Many of these said own were slaves [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Many Africans refer to us today openly as slaves and that is not because of the past alone my friend [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[qb]African owners to marry slave women and adopt slave children who became full members of the family.[/qb]
Now, now the Arabs do the same, and even give them to family members.

[qb]The point is that in this discussion on racism in the Caribbean certain words are being used as if their meaning are unversal in all cultures. Why is that people are trying to look at the parallels and not the differences if not to make excuse for how brutal chattel slavery was?[/qb]
Well certain things can be applied universally when it comes to African origin and slavery, don't you notice? African slavery originated from Africans. And they didnt even care what happened to their own after that. Look at the societal norms in the Caribbean you will see what I mean. Look at how parents are willing to make their children go through hell for their good. And many other examples I could draw here. Racism exist in the Caribbean, we are just used to it and don't even notice it. We are bred and raised to be slaves. Just bite your teeth and go through.

My information comes from knowing how African tribes view each other in such aparently peaceful environments.
These references that you are drawing to say that there was peace amongst the Tutsis and Hutus because of this is not relevant. Race and origin is an issue here, the Tutsis came from the north, where did the king of the Hutus go? Why were they reigning over them? Africans do focus on origins, tribes know their origination from thousands and thousands of years and that is entitlement to certain rights based on this.
Submission does not necessarily means acceptance, it is a matter of not being able to do any better at the particular time.

You will definitely have a hard time convincing me that no feeling of superiority is felt by a 6ft Tutsi looking down on a 4ft Hutu [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[samuel]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

tonic , it should interest you to know that there are many words in west african languages used to denote the descendants of slaves .
if you have any associates of nigerian ,yoruba ,background ;ask them the meanings of the words IRAKAN,IRAKEE and AKATAR .
very strange ,that , given that the slaves were so beautifully integrated into the dominant ethnic groups .

[rufian]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

That is very true samuel, plus when there are ceremonies, the family background is recited, so who you are is never forgotton - and in this case there is no integration and you will never be one of them. And the approach that these Africans have to us as being slaves suggest that they practice superiority-inferiority relationships with slaves.
Marriage means nothing, after all do they treat their wives better than slaves? Do they treat their children any better than slaves?

[mangoskin]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

..yes, unfortunately plenty racism and class consciousness exists.
In Jamaica they look down on indians referring to them as coolies. Surprisingly, the chinese also came to the island as indentured servants with the indians, but the chinese aren't called coolies, hmmm...
Shades of skin colour are graded and you get treated according to your skin colour.
I was last in Jamaica in 1989. A friend attended a wedding last year, and stayed at some upscale Kingston hotel. He told me that Jamaicans came there for breakfast meetings and the like, and they were all light-skinned! The only dark-skinned Jamaicans he noticed were the hotel workers.
Back when my mom was a kid growing up in Kingston, she said that only light-skinned girls were bank tellers - look like things haven't changed that much in Ja.. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[tonic]

Re: Is there racism in the caribbean?

Mangoskin I agree with you. Next time you visit look at hotel workers and see who is doing what kind of work.

Samuel you are right about the many African words used to denote and denigrate the descendants of slaves. However, slavery in Africa changed after colonialism. Before the Europeans, heriditary slavery extending over several generations was rare. I do not remember the exact phrase but it was a taboo to talk about heritage of some slaves who were integrate in some nations in Nigeria.

Sukuna I really love reading your responses even though we disagree on some points.

Sukuna said:
"I am looking at a more greater expansion of the meaning of slavery, when applied to Africans, us included. " What exactly do mean by this? And does subsuming the African slavery into a more universial definition of slavery serves a particular function?

Chattel slavery is that a person is owned as a piece of property. Chattel slave has no legal rights and can be punished by the owner at will. African slaves had some individual rights and their were some restrictions to limit abuses. Does you definition of free and freedom apply to African's society cultural definition?

Please do not forget it is them who gave many of their own into slavery. You are right about that but do not forget that many Africans also lost their lives when they oppose slavery. Some Africans apoligized for their part in our enslavement. I am glad you recognized that African slavery dispropotionately impacted women but that is another issue.

Please post the topic of how Caribbean parent are willing to make their children go through hell for their good. But is that the result of their African origin or the imposition of European chattel slavery?