I am a christian so I don't vote

[rebelgirl]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Mmmm...personally I think the Christian who takes the position that because of his/her religion, they do not vote, is irresponsible. Whether or not one vote makes a difference is not the issue, but to not take part in the choosing of an elected government is to forfeit one's right to be critical of what the government does. There may be a point where the choices of candidates in one's area may present a moral or ethical challenge, and in that case it is OK to not support either, but to make a blanket statement that one does not vote because one is a Christian is silly. [/qb]

JW's don't vote, they also will not serve in the military or partake in wars fought by their country. I believe it has to do with not believing in the authority of man made governments and borders drawn up by man. the only authority that they believe in is that of Jehovah. It's one of the things I respect most about the JW's faith.

so if You are a JW then your according to you particular branch of Christianity, being a Christian means you don't vote.

(one might ask as well what voting ever really brings to a nation anyway? any nation i can think of has not been better off by electing their chosen candidate. and in cases where the elected candidate wasn't the one desired by big business (such as the American election) they simply switch the numbers rig this and that and push who they want into office) Democracy is a farce [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] )

so cast your ballot if you wish but to expect anything positive will come of it, is silly [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[evanovitch]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

mi have a question mi woulda love smaddy fi ansa...since JW's have a fixed number dat gwine to heaven and dem membership supercede dat number, how dem mekking di choice as to who gwine

[kthydvs]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by evanovitch:
[qb] mi have a question mi woulda love smaddy fi ansa...since JW's have a fixed number dat gwine to heaven and dem membership supercede dat number, how dem mekking di choice as to who gwine [/qb]

We don't make this choice. this number has been selected and sealed by Jehovah. Rev 14:1-3 "I saw, and look! the Lamb (Jesus Christ) standing upon Mount Zion (in heaven: see Hebrews 12:22-24) and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads...And they are singing as if a new song...and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been brought from the earth".

Rev 7:4-8 "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Judah, Rueben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin" (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16)

[kthydvs]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

CEW: John 17:16 "They are no part of the world, just as I (Jesus) am no part of the world".

"Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favour by those who ruled the pagan world. Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. They would not hold political office" On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238

"The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more holy feeling into the citizens of the state" - The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the First Three Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168

However just because we do not get involved in the political areana, does not mean we do not obey the secular authorities. "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God" (Rom 13:1).

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] CEW, was Jesus a political figure while here on earth? [/qb]

Anytime you want to change any system or condition you are political. In fact that was one of the greatest fear of both Pilot (not the one on this Board Pontius Pilate) and the Jews, that this man was getting ready to usurp or supersede the establish order.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Mmmm...personally I think the Christian who takes the position that because of his/her religion, they do not vote, is irresponsible.[/qb]

The Christian voice of reason. Voting is only one aspect of politics, the Christian, heathen all citizens must keep engaged.

[kthydvs]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] CEW, was Jesus a political figure while here on earth? [/qb]

Anytime you want to change any system or condition you are political. In fact that was one of the greatest fear of both Pilot (not the one on this Board Pontius Pilate) and the Jews, that this man was getting ready to usurp or supersede the establish order. [/qb]

to a degree you are right, not for pontius pilate but for the pharisees, sadducees and scribes who Jesus referred to as "blind guides" (Math 23:16), "hypocrites" (Math 23:25), "Serpents, offspring of vipers" (Math 23:33). Jesus knew all about their false teachings, haughty behaviour, injustice to the people besides the many other faults they had. These were the religious leaders who were supposed to be caring for the spiritual wellbeing of natural Israel, but instead weighed them down. As for Pontius Pilate, he found nothing wrong with Jesus (Luke 23:14) but to please the crowds who had been incited by the religious leaders to call for Jesus to be put to death, Pilate handed him over (Mark 15:15). While Pilate was sitting in judgement, his wife advised him to have nothing to do with this righeous man (Math 27:19), Pilate even after handing him over to be killed washed his hands before the crowds and said "I am innocent of the blood of this man" (Mathew 27:24).

So it wasn't a case of Jesus being political. He came to preach to the lost sheep about Jehovah and his Kingdom , something that the religious leaders were failing to do. They were in positions of power and prominence, and because Jesus was showing them up for what they really were. Jesus told them "Why is it you do not know what I am speaking? Because you cannot listen to my word. You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. This one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him". (John 8:44). What Jesus was addressing was not political matters but spiritual matters pertaining to the lies they were spreading regarding Jehovah.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] to a degree you are right, not for pontius pilate but for the pharisees, sadducees and scribes who Jesus referred to as "blind guides" (Math 23:16), "hypocrites"....[/qb]

So what Jesus was doing is to invite them not to consider the realities around them just concentrate on the so-called kingdom of God.

Here are my questions. I don`t believe in the bible, but we will put that aside for a moment doubtless you are convinced about your position and its unassailability, but while you are on this road to heaven where your god is not politically elected do you look out the window and see the realities?

[kthydvs]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] to a degree you are right, not for pontius pilate but for the pharisees, sadducees and scribes who Jesus referred to as "blind guides" (Math 23:16), "hypocrites"....[/qb]

So what Jesus was doing is to invite them not to consider the realities around them just concentrate on the so-called kingdom of God.

Here are my questions. I don`t believe in the bible, but we will put that aside for a moment doubtless you are convinced about your position and its unassailability, but while you are on this road to heaven where your god is not politically elected do you look out the window and see the realities? [/qb]

don't believe I am going to heaven but as for seeing the realities of course I do. We are surrounded by the suffering experienced by the majority of mankind. from poverty, hunger, sickness, war, violence, as i said at the beginning, man has been unable, despite thousands of years of self-government, to bring under control, let alone eradicate. That is why I follow what Jesus taught and spend time on the ministry talking to people about their hope for a better future.

Now please would you answer me a question. Is it the Bible you don't believe in or is it how the Bible is interpreted and misrepresented by man that is the foundation for your disbelief?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] Now please would you answer me a question. Is it the Bible you don't believe in or is it how the Bible is interpreted and misrepresented by man that is the foundation for your disbelief? [/qb]

Well they is or more correctly a bible. Now what is considered the Bible is a fanstastic journey into life times and the minds of jewish people of that time and the way they organized their lives and worship their gods.
It does not speak to me, nor does it speaks for me!

Peace

[Fledgist]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] i don't vote but i have not relinquished my ability to think. does voting really change anything? no matter what party is in power, in whatever country you reside, they can never bring to an end the major concerns of the people: an end to war, hunger, sickness, violence, poverty, decaying environment and all the other problems mankind faces [/qb]

So, it doesn't matter whether the people who rule us are accountable to us, or are tyrants? That's absurd.

The fact that the problems humanity faces seem insuperable does not mean that they should not be confronted. As a very wise man once said it is because we have got rid of so many painful things (such as slavery) that those which remain seem so horrible to us. [/qb]

Fledgist, i have yet to meet a politician who truly is accountable. please if you know of one tell me their name? what is a tyrant if not someone who controls us. whether we empower them or not, politicans control us. is the only diferrence between a dictatorship and a totalitarian system, is that i have had a say in who controls me? [/qb]

All politicians in democracies are accountable to the electorate. Most of the politicians I know have been called to account.

A tyrant is a ruler who is trammelled by no laws, but rules according to his or her whim.

All totalitarian systems are dictatorships, by definition.

[Diplomat]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] CEW: John 17:16 "They are no part of the world, just as I (Jesus) am no part of the world".

"Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favour by those who ruled the pagan world. Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. They would not hold political office" On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238

"The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more holy feeling into the citizens of the state" - The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the First Three Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168

However just because we do not get involved in the political areana, does not mean we do not obey the secular authorities. "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God" (Rom 13:1). [/qb]

Mmmm...we do have to be very careful how we quote scriptures. If we put the verse you quoted back in its context, what we have is Jesus praying that the Father would keep the disciples - and by extension all who follow Him - from the evil, from being corrupted by the world, the remains of sin in their hearts, and from the power and craft of Satan. So that they might pass through the world as through an enemy's country, as he had done. They are not left here to pursue the same objects as the men around them, but to glorify God, and to serve their generation.

The verse does *not* mean we do not take part in the civil/civic affairs. We live in communities and countries where decisions taken do have a direct impact on us. While we live here, we have a responsibility to be a part of a process that sees the most suitable person govern the system under which we are subjected, and that involves casting a vote for that person whose ideas and plans for governance seems most reasonable. We have children who are a part of public education system and we also need to get involved to cast our votes for administrators who represents what is best for our children as they learn.

To sit back and leave that responsibility for the most part to non-Christians is IMO, an abdication of responsibility. The instruction to the Christian is to "Occupy till I come"; make use of our God given talent and abilities that not only sees us spreading the love of God, but having a say in what happens in our respective communities.

The Christian that chooses not to vote on the basis of religion forfeits his/her right to challenge those issues that conflicts with his/her beliefs.

The sources from which you quote may have been recording the attitudes of the day, but by no means does it imply that such behavior was correct. The early church expected to be taken out of the world and refused to participate in civil affairs, but in as much as the return of Christ is central to the Christian faith, we still have to "occupy" till He comes, and that involves being responsible citizens in civil affairs.

[kthydvs]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] i don't vote but i have not relinquished my ability to think. does voting really change anything? no matter what party is in power, in whatever country you reside, they can never bring to an end the major concerns of the people: an end to war, hunger, sickness, violence, poverty, decaying environment and all the other problems mankind faces [/qb]

So, it doesn't matter whether the people who rule us are accountable to us, or are tyrants? That's absurd.

The fact that the problems humanity faces seem insuperable does not mean that they should not be confronted. As a very wise man once said it is because we have got rid of so many painful things (such as slavery) that those which remain seem so horrible to us. [/qb]

Fledgist, i have yet to meet a politician who truly is accountable. please if you know of one tell me their name? what is a tyrant if not someone who controls us. whether we empower them or not, politicans control us. is the only diferrence between a dictatorship and a totalitarian system, is that i have had a say in who controls me? [/qb]

All politicians in democracies are accountable to the electorate. Most of the politicians I know have been called to account.

A tyrant is a ruler who is trammelled by no laws, but rules according to his or her whim.

All totalitarian systems are dictatorships, by definition. [/qb]

If a tyrant rules according to their own whims, i must be living in a dictatorship. The opposition to Tony Blair prior to and during the Iraq conflict held no sway with his decision making. He went ahead regardless of the views of the people and his some of his own government. Granted when you are living under in a totalitarian system, its not hidden, but there is a pretence of power sharing within a democratic system, but evidence shows that the power base is limited to a small group of people who more often than not, control the masses through their own egalitarian ethics. I would still like the name/s of politicans that have been held accountable and have truly admitted to their faults.

[kthydvs]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by kumba1:
[qb] CEW: John 17:16 "They are no part of the world, just as I (Jesus) am no part of the world".

"Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favour by those who ruled the pagan world. Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. They would not hold political office" On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238

"The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more holy feeling into the citizens of the state" - The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the First Three Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168

However just because we do not get involved in the political areana, does not mean we do not obey the secular authorities. "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God" (Rom 13:1). [/qb]

Mmmm...we do have to be very careful how we quote scriptures. If we put the verse you quoted back in its context, what we have is Jesus praying that the Father would keep the disciples - and by extension all who follow Him - from the evil, from being corrupted by the world, the remains of sin in their hearts, and from the power and craft of Satan. So that they might pass through the world as through an enemy's country, as he had done. They are not left here to pursue the same objects as the men around them, but to glorify God, and to serve their generation.

There is an acceptance here that the world can corrupt. Now as the world is dominated by politics, can we take it too mean that politics is corrupt? As a follower of Christ I also need to be protected from this corruptive influence, so the best line of defence is to remain apart from it and not get involved in the machinations of man (and Satan who has power over the whole world: 1Jo 5:19)

The verse does *not* mean we do not take part in the civil/civic affairs. We live in communities and countries where decisions taken do have a direct impact on us. While we live here, we have a responsibility to be a part of a process that sees the most suitable person govern the system under which we are subjected, and that involves casting a vote for that person whose ideas and plans for governance seems most reasonable. We have children who are a part of public education system and we also need to get involved to cast our votes for administrators who represents what is best for our children as they learn.

"Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground; In that day his thoughts do perish. Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in Jehovah God"(Psalm 146:3-5). Sorry but I cannot accept your statements that while we wait for Jehovah to bring an end to this world, we have to chose out of men, the one whose ideas and governance are most reasonable. Reasonable by who’s standards? And as for administrators who represent what is best for my children, I would not entrust their future to man if I had at this moment a choice. I have to accept the rules of the secular authorities, providing they do not conflict with what Jehovah expects of me. And that I do. But as for trusting them, never is my answer. Two of the major causes of the problems mankind is facing toady and throughout history (aside from the involvement of Satan in human affairs) is politics and religion. Both I avoid like the plague.

To sit back and leave that responsibility for the most part to non-Christians is IMO, an abdication of responsibility. The instruction to the Christian is to "Occupy till I come"; make use of our God given talent and abilities that not only sees us spreading the love of God, but having a say in what happens in our respective communities.

The Christian that chooses not to vote on the basis of religion forfeits his/her right to challenge those issues that conflicts with his/her beliefs.
Occupy or dwell in does not imply taking part in the political arena of the world. I have to live in this world I have no choice at present (unless I'm dead that is) but I don't have to be a part of the world. Why would I have forfeited the right to challenge anything that goes against Jehovah’s standards just because I haven’t voted?


The sources from which you quote may have been recording the attitudes of the day, but by no means does it imply that such behavior was correct. The early church expected to be taken out of the world and refused to participate in civil affairs, but in as much as the return of Christ is central to the Christian faith, we still have to "occupy" till He comes, and that involves being responsible citizens in civil affairs. [/qb]

What is the difference between the early Christians and those who practice the same faith today? We are waiting for Jehovah to remove this wicked system, some to be taken out of it to rule in heaven, the majority to live in paradise. The early Christians are acknowledged as following the teachings of Jesus as were practiced when he was alive. So how could anyone imply that their behaviour was incorrect. Does this mean that Jesus was not correct in his teachings? Not voting does not mean not being responsible citizens. I just emulate as much as I can what Jesus taught. That’s why I asked you was Jesus involved in politics when here on earth. There is no evidence that he denounced the political system, or commented regarding the Roman authorities. His concern was for the spiritual welfare of the people. That should, as Christians, be our primary concern today. “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these (other) things will be added to you.” (Math 6:33)

[Q3210]

Re: I am a christian so I don't vote

[
If i see a crime in progress, the only reason i would call the police is for the benefit of the victim. what happens to the alleged offender is not of my concern. i am not judge and jury. but i fail to see what this has to do with my position on not getting involved in politics. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Maybe not in politics, but your stance goes against the very pricnciples that Jesus Christ died for. How can you be not concerned about the offender?
By so doing demonstrates why you do not see the importance of partaking no matter how small in your politics.
By sweeping the offender under the carpet does not help in the least. By concerning ourselves with all parties, we enable ourselves better to handle and control our fate.
I am sure your pastor thinks differently who ever he/she is as a leader in the Christian faith.