Bishop T.D. Jakes

**RollinCalf** · 06-16-2003, 04:35 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

CEW, what does this verse mean:

"Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God." (2 COR 2:17)

**Diplomat** · 06-16-2003, 06:18 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] CEW, what does this verse mean:

"Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God." (2 COR 2:17) [/qb]

Some of the preachers/teachers of Paul's time were prostituting the gospel for their own purposes. As new churches were founded, they presented themselves as teachers, but it was more to take advantage of the membership. The King James rendition of the verse reads: "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. The move from "corrupt" to "peddle" - in the different translations - simply reflects the intent of the so called teachers. The original Greek word is "kap-ale-yoo'-o" which means to retail (by implication) or adulterate.

Context is everything so do allow me to put the verse back in its context to do it justice. The entire Chapter 2 is a continuation of Chapter 1, and from verse 13 onwards, we see Paul expressing his pleasure that his first letter (1 Corinthians) was kindly received and had accomplished what was intended. He further continued that while his ministry was always acceptable to God, he was aware that some had rejected and had condemned the gospel. He was however of the consolation that it was no fault of his and this is where v17 comes into play. He was simply stating their rejection of the gospel was not because he had corrupted the Word of God; it was not because he was unfaithful; it was not because he was not sincere. He had a good conscience - a conscience which assured him that he spoke in sincerity and as in the sight of God - though the unhappy effect might be that many would perish from under his ministry.

**RollinCalf** · 06-16-2003, 06:27 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

But CEW, I thought later translations like the NIV were more accurate?

In any event, since you admit that the word "kap-ale-yoo'-o" can mean "retail", and that "they presented themselves as teachers, but it was more to take advantage of the membership", why would it be "out of context" to suggest that Paul was addressing preachers who were selling things, using their preaching as a cover, to enrich themselves ? I read and understood what you said but can't see where that conclusion is "out of context" as long as we understand that the orignal word can mean "retail".

**Diplomat** · 06-16-2003, 06:55 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

RC: I did not say the conclusion was out of context. I used context to explain why Paul thought it necessary to include that particular verse, given the thread in which this discussion is taking place. My apologies if it implied otherwise.

**jedi** · 06-16-2003, 08:29 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

I noticed you evaded my question all together about "who do you say Jesus is?"

**soul_doctor73** · 06-17-2003, 12:08 AM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] What is wrong with being wealthy? If T.D. Jakes (or any other Christian for that matter) has paid his dues, applied the Word diligently, pay his tithes, make some money off best selling books and CDs, why are you tripping? The Book reminds us all that the Lord delights in the prosperity of His people so you really have no basis for whatever it is that you are trying to argue. The verses you open with in your initial post is a misapplication of scripture as the principle being taught was not about how wrong it is to have wealth, but that it was wrong to become attached to it. [/qb]

What is the accumulation of wealth, if not an expressed attachment to money? Also, as you so succinctly put it, 'the Lord delights in the prosperity of His *people*'. Plural, as in the 'many', not the one.

**soul_doctor73** · 06-17-2003, 12:11 AM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] I noticed you evaded my question all together about "who do you say Jesus is?" [/qb]

Take a second look.

**Diplomat** · 06-17-2003, 03:01 AM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by soul_doctor73:

What is the accumulation of wealth, if not an expressed attachment to money? Also, as you so succinctly put it, 'the Lord delights in the prosperity of His *people*'. Plural, as in the 'many', not the one.

The accumulation of wealth does *not* mean an expressed attachment to money. Every astute businessman knows that money in the bank is wasted money so to speak, and he will maximize his returns through prudent investments. Isn't that what the parable of the talents as recorded in Matthew 25 is all about? According to verse 15, The Lord gave talents to every man according to his several ability. The ones that were given 5 and 2 respectively, turned it around to 10 and 4, and the Master was very pleased when he returned and took account.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a believer having money, and lots of it. Have you checked out Job's assets? According to Job 42:12, the man was blessed with 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 yoke of oxen, and 1,000 she asses! When God blesses, He promises to open the window of heaven and pour out blessings that there will not be room enough to contain it (Malachi 3:10). Do you know what it means to pour out? Do you know what it means to have good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over (Luke 6:38)? If you are going to be quoting the Bible, be careful to do so with diligence or you risk looking pretty silly. We are admonished to rightly divide the Word of truth and you cannot be selective in the portions you choose to believe.

As for the Lord delighting in the prosperity of His people, there are far more Christians who are being blessed in a lot of areas than you probably realize. Prosperity is not simply money! There can be prosperity in health, relationships, in one's emotional, mental, spiritual psyche. Through various opportunities, some Christians will be like the guy who was given 5 talents, they will greatly increase what has been given to them. If you notice the guy who had the one talent, because he was lazy and did nothing with it, God took it away and gave it to the ones who already had! A classic case of the rich getting richer. So, bark if you will but in this instance, you are barking up the wrong tree. Would it have been better if he was still cooped up in the store-front with the handful of people where he started so many years ago? Do you have any proof that the man is not simply blessed of God, or is it that you challenge God's ability to do as He pleases?

We are not all T.D Jakes with the opportunites, business sense, and open doors that God has blessed him with, but God is blessing His people in various ways and a lot of us are positioned for even more/greater blessings. What are you going to do then?

**jedi** · 06-17-2003, 03:56 AM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by soul_doctor73:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] I noticed you evaded my question all together about "who do you say Jesus is?" [/qb]

Take a second look. [/qb]

I have looked and your response is quite evasive. And if you are referring to Jesus as God's servant, I believe you need to expand a bit more on that thought lest you send an altogether false message.

How can I make this any simpler for you? The difference between Jakes and Abraham are like night and day. Abraham didn't have the name 'Jesus' in his mouth. Abrahm didn't 'preach', come to think of it. As a matter of fact, *none* of the Israelites 'preached' God like Jakes preaches. None of them 'preached' anything.

Is that so? Well then I suggest you go back and read the prophets. Take Isaiah for starters or better yet begin with Moses. You know what I suggest you begin at the book of Genesis again and observe the relationship between Abraham and God. God told Abraham about the coming Messiah. The entire Old Testament propphesied His coming.

They provided for the people of Israel, not to a general audience of believers in a religion. The entire nation of Israel lived by the Law, they were not 'preached' to on Sunday. Their wealth belonged to all, as they prospered so did their people.

And hark! what do I hear you saying? So what did the Levites do in the temple if not preach to the people and remind them constantly of the Law which was of no effect to save them. And how do you see them prospering, was it at the hand of the Levites and priests or was it at the hands of God. And furthermore, as the preacher preaches the word and the people come to believe and to serve God do they not prosper? I believe the words that the man preaches are from God and those are priceless when speaking of wealth. Now it is a matter of what one does with what one hears wouldn't you agree?

I ask again, who is prospering with Jake?

Every soul that has heard the word of God preached and has believed and applied Godly wisdom to their lives.

What is he doing, exactly mind you, that Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did in relation to the God of Israel?

He is serving and worshipping God with all his heart and ministering to God's people at the same time, is that different from what the old testament prophets did?

An example would be something found in the Old Testament that these men did in relation to their serving God. I remind you, they didn't 'preach' Jesus.

While I see you are deferring honor from Jesus the Christ as Messiah by saying that they did not preach 'Jesus' that is a matter of your own belief system and interpretation of the bible. However in one phrase: They obeyed God. They believed in the coming Messiah because God revealed it to them. Now obviously they wouldn't preach Jesus as such but they set their hope on him, here in Christ's own words He says :

Matthew 13
17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Now Christ has come and died and is resurrected and sitting on the right hand of God the Father almighty -after the fact, and He has commanded that we who believe are to go into all the world and spread the good news of the gospel. What may I ask is T.D. Jakes doing? Obeying God. What is the difference?

As to T.D. Jakes preaching observe this:

Romans 10: 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

You seem to have something against preaching and teaching...so what pray thee tell do you consider yourself doing on this forum? Unfortunately you are preaching a false doctrine and blaspheming the name of God at the same time.

Besides this, it still doesn't remove the fact that Bishop Jakes' wealth is self-oriented. Jakes is wealthy, not the 'people' of Jakes. [

You say this because you haven't got a clue of what wealth really is. You consider wealth to be measured in appearances only of material things, but consider this- The man teaches how to gather wealth, the audience learns - which is better, to give a man a meal or to teach him how to earn a living so that he can feed himself for a lifetime?

**Diplomat** · 06-17-2003, 10:57 AM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by Jedi:

Besides this, it still doesn't remove the fact that Bishop Jakes' wealth is self-oriented. Jakes is wealthy, not the 'people' of Jakes.

You say this because you haven't got a clue of what wealth really is. You consider wealth to be measured in appearances only of material things, but consider this- The man teaches how to gather wealth, the audience learns - which is better, to give a man a meal or to teach him how to earn a living so that he can feed himself for a lifetime?

Excellent point.

**RollinCalf** · 06-17-2003, 11:06 AM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

CEW, I understand the phrase you used in relation to the Bishop's activities ... "the Lord delights in the prosperity of His people" is a paraphrase of that which appears in Ps 35:27. How does the context of that Psalm relate to TD ? (If I am wrong about the source of the phrase I apologize).

Nevertheless, do you believe that when TD, Creflo, and Kenneth accept the tithes of those far less wealthy than them, the Lord delights in the fact that they choose to fly on private jets and wear $1000 suits ? Why would that "delight" a Lord who threw money changers out of a temple ?

As a matter of fact, when Jesus sent His disciples into the world to preach the good news, did He not give them very specific instructions on the do’s and don’ts of their ministry? Why would you ignore this part of the Bible when its specific focus is on the finances of those who are sent to preach the gospel ?

When Jesus sends out the twelve the first issue He addressed was what they were to take with them on their mission was it not ? : "He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. And He said to them “Take nothing for the journey, neither staff’s nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece”." (Luke 9:2-3)

**Diplomat** · 06-17-2003, 11:56 AM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

RollinCalf: When Jesus told the disciples to take nothing with them on their mission, He was teaching them an important principle: that He was able to take care of them and that their success would *not* be because of what they had. Notice the sequence of events; He called the twelve "...and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick...And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where. In Luke 22:35 we see the lesson He was teaching them. "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing." They were shown that they did not have to depend on their own resources to do the things God wanted them to do and be successful at it.

I understand the phrase you used in relation to the Bishop's activities ... "the Lord delights in the prosperity of His people" is a paraphrase of that which appears in Ps 35:27. How does the context of that Psalm relate to TD ? (If I am wrong about the source of the phrase I apologize).

The source is fine. The verse in question applies to all believers. Notice what David said: "...let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant." I do believe the Lord takes pleasure in my own prosperity.

Nevertheless, do you believe that when TD, Creflo, and Kenneth accept the tithes of those far less wealthy than them, the Lord delights in the fact that they choose to fly on private jets and wear $1000 suits ? Why would that "delight" a Lord who threw money changers out of a temple ?

See, we have to get out of the mindset that tithes are paid to Pastors. It takes money to spread the gospel, to buy TV/Satellite time, to run various community programs, to have support staff, to pay for utilities, build churches, and so on. Pastors also are salaried as they do have families to support as well, and as far as I am concerned, they are like company CEOs and should be adequately compensated so they can devote themselves to the various ministries. Various businessmen fly in personal jets on business trips, so when a Pastor has to fly into different cities/countries for crusades, conferences, and so on, along with support staff, equipment, and Lord knows what else, what is wrong with doing so on a ministry jet? Absolutely nothing. Tithes and offerings keeps the ministries going, and the givers are blessed of God in their own way.

As a matter of fact, when Jesus sent His disciples into the world to preach the good news, did He not give them very specific instructions on the do’s and don’ts of their ministry? Why would you ignore this part of the Bible when its specific focus is on the finances of those who are sent to preach the gospel?

I addressed this at the beginning. The focus was not on finances but there was an important lesson/principle being taught. If you read the gospels closely, you will notice that at no other time did Jesus issue those instructions again.

**jedi** · 06-17-2003, 01:36 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Why thanks (((CEW))) And you are doing an excellent job yourself. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

(wispa to mi self ... finally)

**jedi** · 06-17-2003, 01:55 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

They provided for the people of Israel, not to a general audience of believers in a religion.

P.S. Which they are you speaking of here, the old testament teachers and preachers? For if so please recall that they were commanded by God not to work nor to own anything. All their needs were provided for by the people of Israel.

If you are speaking of Abraham, he worked and he had servants who worked for a living too. So please show me where the hand outs are spoken of in the bible. In the book of Leviticus we see where God ordered the land owners not to glean over the harvest but to leave the droppings for the poor to glean. In the book of Ruth if you recall this is how she came to meet Boaz at the direction of Naomi. Now except to the Levitical order as commanded by God each man earned his living by working. Now shouldn't a preacher be compensated to live? And if he puts his hand to write, shouldn't he be compensated. Aren't other authors paid for their books?

**soul_doctor73** · 06-17-2003, 03:09 PM

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Jedi, CEW:

You both are behind the power curve. You're rehashing old hash. I'm done with the NT. You may argue for it and its teachings as you wish. But please do not waste my time.

Bishop T.D. Jakes

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