Bishop T.D. Jakes

[soul_doctor73]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by RollinCalf:

"Yeah, but she took the vow of poverty. Had she not done so, she would/could have been worth millions."

And was her ministry while she was here on earth any less efective becuse she chose not to enrich herself in the course of her work on behalf of the poor and ill?

Not at all, and neither was that of Billy Graham's who I understand was well compensated by his organization. In one of your earlier threads, you made reference to Jesus sending out the disciples and instructing them to not take anything with them. However in Luke 10 He sends out another 70 in groups of twos, similar instructions (he was about to teach them the same lesson he taught the earlier 12), but this time told them that: "And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire." In other words, it is OK to be compensated for what you do. Back then it was primarily food, today it is other forms of compensation. Nothing wrong with that at all.

We have to get past the idea that Pastors are supposed to be poor and destitute. There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest or support that.

CEW, were Jesus to return to earth today, do you think he would be selling CD,s and books or charging those seeking to hear his words, "speakers fees"?

How many people do you think Jesus reached walking on foot? If He were here today, given the technology, for sure He would be using televison/satellite, radio, getting his message out on CDs, or whatever medium is available. A ministry of that magnitude would require a lot of money and short of doing something miraculous every month end, He would need finances. Do not forget He did recognize that money was a necessary part of day to day living. It was He who sent Peter to go catch a fish and take the coin from its mouth in order to pay their taxes. [/qb]

CEW: I'm getting the message out using the technology called the internet. I haven't made a dime, and I don't care. I've wrote to God know's how many on different websites, He knows how many have read my posts.

I only have to pay for the service and utility, and God took care of that a long time ago. Living in the modern world, the rules of the world determine how one lives and moves about in it. It is the position from which you are arguing your point. I'm not rediculing your for that, just pointing it out.

Mine is from the exclusive angle of our ancestors, 'all for and one for all', more or less. Israel consisted of twelve, but there was one Israel. The descendants of Israel are still One, the problem is they don't recognize themselves. We are brothers, you and I. Rollincalf, Jedi, et al.

Differing opinions yes, but I believe we want the same thing: equality for our people. My position is there is no higher authority than Heaven and God, and his influence encompasses all man. So I consider all men. Great and small, as equal, as God does. One God, One Blood. One Race.

Our people suffer more than most, I am just bringing to their cause the God of our forefathers. He will deliver Israel from all her oppression, in your lifetime, my friend. You will see it with your own two eyes.

[soul_doctor73]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] (((SD))) I have thought over what you said in your last post and I don't have a lot of time to go into another lengthy discussion on this as I am very pressed for time these days. However let me leave you with a few thoughts as a final contribution to this thread.

1. Do not judge a man by his outer trappings, but rather look at the fruit that comes out from his heart. I say this because you seem to believe that the pious and holy are truly representative of Godly values. God is a judge of hearts.

2. The bible warns us in Proverbs 3:5- Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

In your search for truth, seek out God and He will give you sound understanding. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


2. [/qb]

Jedi: 1)The outer trappings of a man are his fruit. His wealth, his dress, his speech, and actions are reveal the fruit of his works. There have been many christians who have maintianed an excellent 'outer trapping', but had their 'fruit' displayed for the world to see after being caught for their crimes. God is truly a judge of hearts, that is why the 'fruit' of the heart marks him. Evil and good source from the same place: the heart.

2) I lean not unto my own understanding, but that of God's alone. I never claimed to have any knowledge of myself. I may not have spoken as to the source, but I know it is God. I know there is none greater than Him, and that in his sight I am nothing. I been rejected my own understanding as flawed. I have only leaned upon the Lord God for all things.

Everything I've said, the Lord has already revealed to man in the Law and Prophets. That is the source for my information. But the source of my understanding is God.

[kthydvs]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Jesus, when instructing his disciples to go out and seek out the lost ones of Israel his words were "As you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. You received free, give free. Do not procure gold or silver or copper for your girdle purses, or a food pouch for the trip, or two undergarments, or sandals or a staff" (Mathew 10:7,8,9,10; Mr 6:8; Lu 9:3;Lu 10:7)

[kthydvs]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Money can be both beneficial and harmful. Money provides a defence against poverty abd its attendant troubles, enabling persons to procure both necessities and luxuries (Compare Ec 7:12; 10:19). For this reason the possibility exists of a person's beginning to trust money as security and forget his Creator (De 8:10-14). "The love of money (literally, fondness of silver) is a root of all sort of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains" (1Ti 6:10). For money, persons have perverted justice, prostituted themselves, committed murder, betrayed others and falisfied truth (De 16:19; 23:18; 27:25; Eze 22:12; Mr 26:14, 15; 28:11-15).

On the other hand, the proper use of money is approved by God (lu 16:1-9)particularly giving material assistance to those in need (Ro 12:13; 1Jo 3:17). Although much good can be done with money, the most valuable things - spiritual food and drink, eternal life itself - can be obtained without it (Isa 55:1, 2; Re 22:17)

[jedi]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by soul_doctor73:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] (((SD))) I have thought over what you said in your last post and I don't have a lot of time to go into another lengthy discussion on this as I am very pressed for time these days. However let me leave you with a few thoughts as a final contribution to this thread.

1. Do not judge a man by his outer trappings, but rather look at the fruit that comes out from his heart. I say this because you seem to believe that the pious and holy are truly representative of Godly values. God is a judge of hearts.

2. The bible warns us in Proverbs 3:5- Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

In your search for truth, seek out God and He will give you sound understanding. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


2. [/qb]

S.D. 1)The outer trappings of a man are his fruit. His wealth, his dress, his speech, and actions are reveal the fruit of his works.

{ Jedi:Because you have said this I am going to respond to you. In an earlier post there was a comparison to this man and Mother Theresa. I try to steer away from denominational discussions because it is my firm belief that God is saving mankind one by one as individuals and not according to which denomination they belong. I believe that out of every denomination there are true worshippers of God Almighty, and these are they who belong to His Church which is not an earthly church but a spiritual church hope you are following me thus far. Now Mother Theresa may be such a one but she also represents Roman Catholicism. The Roman Catholic church is the richest church in the world. Now let us look at the way they dress, nuns in black or white habits, white headdress and the priests in black with white collars. Nothing could seem more pious and holy. The men and women practice a form of celibacy which is questionable in my mind and has no true basis in scripture as celibacy is not for everyone it is a gift from God. The result: a type of sexual immorality and sickness that has pervaded the church throughout history. More recently as people have seen fit to go public with these atrocities against children of all people, this has threatened the moral fabric upon which that church stands let alone its Godly witness to humanity. Apart from that if you study history you would be appalled at the way the church amassed it's wealth and still continue to do so. The priests who look so pious and holy to the public eye live in a style- (at least in the diocese that I know of here in New York) that is nothing short of luxury. The private lives of some are anything but Godly. So as to appearances, you cannot judge.

There have been many christians who have maintianed an excellent 'outer trapping', but had their 'fruit' displayed for the world to see after being caught for their crimes. God is truly a judge of hearts, that is why the 'fruit' of the heart marks him. Evil and good source from the same place: the heart

Jedi: Here you are accusing the man of a crime which is in your mind, since he has committed none. The fruits of his heart are displayed in the many lives that have been changed for the better as a result of his ministry not his outer garments. I invite you to read one of his books before you speak. They are well written and on point with scripture old and new testaments. Wealth is not evil the love of wealth is what is evil.
2) I lean not unto my own understanding, but that of God's alone. I never claimed to have any knowledge of myself. I may not have spoken as to the source, but I know it is God. I know there is none greater than Him, and that in his sight I am nothing. I been rejected my own understanding as flawed. I have only leaned upon the Lord God for all things.

Everything I've said, the Lord has already revealed to man in the Law and Prophets. That is the source for my information. But the source of my understanding is God. [/qb]

Jedi: Based on what I have read of your writings on this forum, I will just simply agree to disagree with you on the above statement.

[RollinCalf]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Jedi, Mother Teresa is hardly the only nun or priest who somehow managed to run large and effective ministries without amasing great personal wealth in the process.

Maybe if you took the time to learn what taking a vow of poverty is all about, and actually got to know even one person who has done so, you would look at this whole matter of millionaire preachers in a different light.

I am not even going to address your anti-catholic bile as it speaks for itself.

[Hugo]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] Jedi Mother Teresa is hardly the only nun or priest who somehow managed to run large and effective ministries without amasing great personal wealth in the process.

Maybe if you took the time to learn what taking a vow of poverty is all about, and actually got to know even one person who has done so, you would look at this whole matter of millionaire preachers in a different light.

I am not even going to address your anti-catholic bile as it speaks for itself. [/qb]

Coming from one who is well versed in immorality as stated by her on this board what do you expect?

[soul_doctor73]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by Jedi:Based on what I have read of your writings on this forum, I will just simply agree to disagree with you on the above statement.

I am not seeking your agreement Jedi. I seek your understanding.

[jedi]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] Jedi, Mother Teresa is hardly the only nun or priest who somehow managed to run large and effective ministries without amasing great personal wealth in the process.

Maybe if you took the time to learn what taking a vow of poverty is all about, and actually got to know even one person who has done so, you would look at this whole matter of millionaire preachers in a different light.

I am not even going to address your anti-catholic bile as it speaks for itself. [/qb]

(((RC))) I said nothing derogatory about mother teresa if you will take the time to go back and read what I said. My point is simply that you cannot judge by appearances. As to anti-Catholic bile that is how you read what I am saying, notice however that T.D. Jakes cannot come anywhere near the RC church in terms of amassed wealth, and my statements are documented historical facts whether you want to hear it or not, facts are facts regarless of our personal preferences. God is a judge of the human heart.

[RollinCalf]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Well obviously "T.D. Jakes cannot come anywhere near the RC church in terms of amassed wealth", he is an individual, not an institution that is over a 1000 years old!

"and my statements are documented historical facts whether you want to hear it or not, facts are facts regarless of our personal preferences"

And highy selected facts I might add, designed to create the imnpression that the sweeping generalisations that you have made accurately define members of a church for no other reason than they are Catholic.

Would you like me to talk about "sexual immorality and sickness" within fundamentalist protestant churches Jedi ? (You don't want me to go there, trust me). And were I to bring you up to speed about this, would you be prepared to condemn the entirety of Protestantism on that basis ?

[jedi]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] "and my statements are documented historical facts whether you want to hear it or not, facts are facts regarless of our personal preferences"

And highy selected facts I might add,

{Jedi: Obviously you are bucking for an argument here which I am not going to entertain, I pointed out to the catholic church because of your comparison of Mother Teresa to T.D. Jakes and for that reason only. Please don't take my statement out of context to fuel an idle fire.

designed to create the imnpression that the sweeping generalisations that you have made accurately define members of a church for no other reason than they are Catholic.

{Jedi: And I made no sweeping generalizations, I pointed out the fact that outer garments do not make a person TRULY GODLY by directly referencing the clothing worn by the priests and nuns as the discussion centered around T.D. Jakes outward appearance.}

Would you like me to talk about "sexual immorality and sickness" within fundamentalist protestant churches Jedi ? (You don't want me to go there, trust me). And were I to bring you up to speed about this, would you be prepared to condemn the entirety of Protestantism on that basis ? [/qb]

You can have a ball if that is what you want to do (((RC))) but that would be taking the discussion to another level which is what you obviously want to do, my reference to sexual immorality within the RC church is simply to point out that you cannot judge people by their outer garments. I am an individual and just as I said I am being judged for my individual acts not any religious system. Furthermore if you took the time to read what I said I also mentioned that that is my belief regarding individuals in every religion, referencing Mother Teresa as an individual even though she represents the RC church you wouldn't judge her based on the atrocities of the entire church. Now with that said you may feel free to continue but I am through.

[RollinCalf]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

"You can have a ball if that is what you want to do (((RC))) but that would be taking the discussion to another level which is what you obviously want to do"

If that is what I want to do ? Excuse me ? I must be losing my mind cause I could have sworn it was you who lost no time dragging the thread into those references to "sexual immorality and sickness"

"referencing Mother Teresa as an individual even though she represents the RC church you wouldn't judge her based on the atrocities of the entire church."

So why did you bring it up then ?

[britisha]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]

Originally posted by soul_doctor73:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb] (((SD))) I have thought over what you said in your last post and I don't have a lot of time to go into another lengthy discussion on this as I am very pressed for time these days. However let me leave you with a few thoughts as a final contribution to this thread.

1. Do not judge a man by his outer trappings, but rather look at the fruit that comes out from his heart. I say this because you seem to believe that the pious and holy are truly representative of Godly values. God is a judge of hearts.

2. The bible warns us in Proverbs 3:5- Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

In your search for truth, seek out God and He will give you sound understanding. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


2. [/qb]

S.D. 1)The outer trappings of a man are his fruit. His wealth, his dress, his speech, and actions are reveal the fruit of his works.

{ [i]Jedi:Because you have said this I am going to respond to you. In an earlier post there was a comparison to this man and Mother Theresa. I try to steer away from denominational discussions because it is my firm belief that God is saving mankind one by one as individuals and not according to which denomination they belong.

It is good to see that this bulletin board has FINALLY taught you that YOUR religion in NOT the only religion and that if there must be any peace on earth, then others should be able to practice what they believe.

I believe that out of every denomination there are true worshippers of God Almighty, and these are they who belong to His Church which is not an earthly church but a spiritual church hope you are following me thus far. Now Mother Theresa may be such a one but she also represents Roman Catholicism. The Roman Catholic church is the richest church in the world. Now let us look at the way they dress, nuns in black or white habits, white headdress and the priests in black with white collars.

They who dress? This alone indicates a condescension towards Roman Catholics? Is this all that you know about the way "they" dress?

Nothing could seem more pious and holy. The men and women practice a form of celibacy which is questionable in my mind and has no true basis in scripture as celibacy is not for everyone it is a gift from God.

Which men and women? R. Catholic men and women? Who constitute this "they"? Do the laity come into this? You see, you "Johnny come Latelys" to "christianity" always, always seem to think they know it all. What do YOU know about the Holy Scriptures and reference(s) to celibacy? What? Are you familiar with the Douay version? Obviously not.

The result: a type of sexual immorality and sickness that has pervaded the church throughout history.

Oh really!! Such logic. You are one of those who entertain the notion that because one practices celibacy this will cause pedophillia....what came first the chicken or the egg? Pedophiles joined the religion or the religion created pedophiles? Tell the board. Further what about the women who practice celibacy...the nuns that is...are they pedophiles also? They all ought to be based on your statement. How do you account by YOUR logic that they are not ALL pedophiles, men and women? How?

More recently as people have seen fit to go public with these atrocities against children of all people, this has threatened the moral fabric upon which that church stands let alone its Godly witness to humanity.

These pedophiles do NOT make the Church you non corpus mentis.....I see you from time to time casting aspersions against Roman Catholicism, but hear this, the RC church has survived centuries of heretics like you and will continue to survive. Man does NOT make the church; go back and read the history of the RC church. If this was the case, by your logic not one church would be left "standing." For those who wish to take a look check these links: pedophilia is not germane to the Roman Catholic church.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw130.html

For more than 40 years, Joe and Barbara Anderson were faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, preaching door to door and winning more than 80 converts to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

But now the Andersons are outcasts, excommunicated from the religion they served.

The couple's transgression: Sowing discord in the faith by alleging that the denomination has protected pedophiles and concealed hundreds of child molestation cases.

Apart from that if you study history you would be appalled at the way the church amassed it's wealth and still continue to do so. The priests who look so pious and holy to the public eye live in a style- (at least in the diocese that I know of here in New York) that is nothing short of luxury. The private lives of some are anything but Godly. So as to appearances, you cannot judge.

Have you gone in elBarrio and seen how some of them live? Or have you gone to St. Annes's Percy Street Kingston and seen how some of them live? You see that IS your problem, you LOVE to generalise, from a position that you don't know what you are talking about. You claim to be a "know-it-all", nobody else studied "the Word" but you. Poor yuh!!

Again I am sick of those who come in here to criticise and mock the Roman Catholic church, calling the Pope pedophile and saying that the Vatican is this and the Vatican is that among other things, starting stupid threads as bait...all based on ignorance ..mek a stop yahsoh. Mi juss a come een fram di south and mi tyad.

Rolling Calf, mi brethren, one ting I must say, aldoa wi noh si eye to eye on the deity bizniz, mi respect your logic and style in presenting your ideas. Nice job.!!

...and Mr. Jakes [just] reminds me of Reverend Ike.

[RollinCalf]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Hi there B, yes we have had our disagreements in the past haven't we ! Anyway, let me share something with you and others. From time to time you may have noticed that I seem to be partial to the RC church. Well it may be because of one individual whom I linked here in one of my posts. Some years ago, my path crossed with that of Richard Holung because of some work I was doing in Kingston at the time and let me tell you something, I learned from him what it really means to put others before yourself, see the humanity in those whom society has discarded like garbage on the sidewalk and to toil in relative obscurity seeking neither fame, the adulation of those he serves nor the trappings of materialism. He has singlehandedly created a mission of 'brothers' as he terms them, who are doing in other Third World countries, what he has managed to do in Jamaica with precious little assistance from the governemt (and a great deal of suspicion and resentment too I might add ) while working in areas where few other churches will go. And somehow, I just can't imagine how, he has managed to do this without a wardrobe filled with 3 piece suits and travelling on a private jet. This is the other side of catholicism that you never hear fundies talk about. And the fact of the matter is that the type of crimes now being uncovered within the RC priesthood is occuring in all denominations. Child abuse, physical abuse, fraud, theft, marital affairs, deception of all sorts are problems of the ENTIRE instituion we call The Church, and has been for years as anyone over the age of 2 knows. So in my opnion, for a member of ANY denomiantion to start pointing fingers at another, as if this is not the case, is the height of hypocrisy.

[soul_doctor73]

Re: Bishop T.D. Jakes

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb] Hi there B, yes we have had our disagreements in the past haven't we ! Anyway, let me share something with you and others. From time to time you may have noticed that I seem to be partial to the RC church. Well it may be because of one individual whom I linked here in one of my posts. Some years ago, my path crossed with that of Richard Holung because of some work I was doing in Kingston at the time and let me tell you something, I learned from him what it really means to put others before yourself, see the humanity in those whom society has discarded like garbage on the sidewalk and to toil in relative obscurity seeking neither fame, the adulation of those he serves nor the trappings of materialism. He has singlehandedly created a mission of 'brothers' as he terms them, who are doing in other Third World countries, what he has managed to do in Jamaica with precious little assistance from the governemt (and a great deal of suspicion and resentment too I might add ) while working in areas where few other churches will go. And somehow, I just can't imagine how, he has managed to do this without a wardrobe filled with 3 piece suits and travelling on a private jet. This is the other side of catholicism that you never hear fundies talk about. And the fact of the matter is that the type of crimes now being uncovered within the RC priesthood is occuring in all denominations. Child abuse, physical abuse, fraud, theft, marital affairs, deception of all sorts are problems of the ENTIRE instituion we call The Church, and has been for years as anyone over the age of 2 knows. So in my opnion, for a member of ANY denomiantion to start pointing fingers at another, as if this is not the case, is the height of hypocrisy. [/qb]

Which is exactly why I say get out of religion asap. It's full of the wicked, and the wicked will burn. If you're not careful, they will take you down with them.