Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

[Guest]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Originally posted by Compry:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Question: If Jesus had no sin, why did He come to John to be baptized?

John 3

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


Up till he was baptized by John and recieved the Spirit He was no more able to enter heaven than anyone else. God's attribute of justice at work here. What He expected of others He had to first apply to Himself. [/qb]

Very interesting Jedi. Let's face it He did become man. [/qb]

Straight from His mouth too!

[Guest]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Another thing kept shouting in my mind this morning...."He was the First Born from the dead" which is actually what it means to be born again and to recieve the Holy Spirit at baptism spiritually, then He would also be the first to be resurrected from physical death. Before we receive the Holy Spirit at the time of baptism we are spiritualy dead. The emersion in water and reemergence from the water marks the rebirthing process. So yes (((Compry))) before His baptism He was in the likeness of men but the moment of emersion and the reemergece marks His rebirth and the recieving of the Holy Spirit marked Him as the first born from the spiritualy dead. Now He could enter heaven upon His resurrection.

[Diplomat]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Question: If Jesus had no sin, why did He come to John to be baptized?

John 3

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


Up till he was baptized by John and recieved the Spirit He was no more able to enter heaven than anyone else. God's attribute of justice at work here. What He expected of others He had to first apply to Himself. [/qb]

So He had to be born of water and the Spirit to go back to where He initially came from?

[Guest]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]So He had to be born of water and the Spirit to go back to where He initially came from? [/qb]

but He wasn't a man when He was there.

[Diplomat]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Originally posted by Compry:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]So He had to be born of water and the Spirit to go back to where He initially came from? [/qb]

but He wasn't a man when He was there. [/qb]

Which is why I do not think this reason is feasible. Baptism does not make us eligible for heaven; acceptance of Jesus as Lord and observing His teachings does. The baptism of John was one of repentance/remission of sins. Bear in mind that John 3:5 is in the context of Jesus' discussion with a sinner. In some circles, baptism is seen as the laying down of the old (sinful) man. Jesus had no sin, so he did not fall into that category. Sure He was man, but He was also God - having the power to lay down His life and take it up again.

[Guest]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

CEW, Jesus came into the world to take on the sins of the world right?

[Guest]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]]Which is why I do not think this reason is feasible. Baptism does not make us eligible for heaven; acceptance of Jesus as Lord and observing His teachings does. The baptism of John was one of repentance/remission of sins. Bear in mind that John 3:5 is in the context of Jesus' discussion with a sinner. In some circles, baptism is seen as the laying down of the old (sinful) man. Jesus had no sin, so he did not fall into that category. Sure He was man, but He was also God - having the power to lay down His life and take it up again. [/qb]

First of all re-read what you just said and compare it to John 3:5. Jesus said it right and not only did He say it He also is our proof that that is exactly what has to be done. Baptism is not only figurative it is actual, the emergence in the water is symbolic of rebirth, the infusion of the Holy Spirit is what is required before God and occurs at the moment that one repents of their sins and recieves Christ into their hearts.
To be born of water and the Spirit is a spiritual baptism, the outward baptism performed before men is an outward confession of ones belief which is symbolic. Jesus is speaking of the real thing not just the symbolic. What Christ did was symbolic of what actually happens to the believer at the moment he accepts Christ into his heart. He is reborn. Christ had to be reborn of the Spirit Himself to reenter into heaven because He had put off His Godship to humble himself to become man. Though he was without sin pure and spotless was his Godly nature but he became man and had to do what man would have to do to gain access into heaven he had to be born again. Not only that, because God requires that of all men then Jesus being a man in the flesh had to also fulfill his own requirements.

[Diplomat]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Jedi: As I said in a previous thread, there will be any number of speculations from any number of perspectives, and I am not prepared to say one is right and the other wrong. I have settled in on a position I am comfortable with, again, based on my understanding of the scriptures.

I posted the question simply to hear other perspectives, and was pretty open to looking at each one that answered any of the key questions in my mind. All we have are opinions and conjectures as the scriptures do not explicitly explain why Jesus was baptized, other than to "fulfill all righteousness". Again the question in my mind is: what commandments were He referring to? With that in mind, I do not think anyone can take a position and say it is 100% absolute. So while we have differing opinions on the issue, I certainly respect your position on it.

[Guest]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CEW:
As I said in a previous thread, there will be any number of speculations from any number of perspectives,

Okay, but there is speculation and there is what is written in the scriptures. I am out of time right now but I will return with further scriptural proof of this because I believe that somethings cannot be left to speculation and this is one of them. Meanwhile we will just agree to disagree. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Diplomat]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
As I said in a previous thread, there will be any number of speculations from any number of perspectives,

Okay, but there is speculation and there is what is written in the scriptures. I am out of time right now but I will return with further scriptural proof of this because I believe that somethings cannot be left to speculation and this is one of them. Meanwhile we will just agree to disagree. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

Actually, I am finished with this issue as I can see another "butting of heads" coming and I am not going there [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] .

Edited to add: BTW, one of things I have learned over the years is that any number of us can find scriptures to support any position. I mean, many a mini wars have been fought over stuff like that [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] .

[accepted77]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

The unseen things of God are clearly seen being understood by the things that are seen.

When we consider time we do so in linear mode past, present, future.

God operates in time in his dealing with man, but he also is timeless.

1 Peter Paints the picture of baptism in the ark, the firmament above and the waters beneath and salvation as the deliverence out of the torrent.

Simarily Corinthians paint the salvation of Isreal in the passing through the Red sea as a baptism.

Peter makes the fundamental correlation between the salvation of mankind in the Ark a second rebirth for man and water baptism with the statement

in like manner baptism does now save us

Jesus came with one purpose to save us from sin. This purpose was finished in heaven before it was done on earth.

So that David in the Psalms could say I know my redeemer lives. We see these paradigm of eternity/time again and again in scripture. Alpha omega complexes. When we see in faith things that have not happened as though they have, we call it faith, we see the unseen, we see things as God does, this faith pleases God.

Therefore when Jesus said for such becometh righteousness he was prophesying from his comand to Nicodemus you must be born of water and the spirit, except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Operative word, man, the first adam was a natural man of the earth, the second Adam, Jesus put to death the natural in his death and resurection and arose a quickening spirit.

Man must apply the regeneration through water baptism - our death to sin- to be filled with the quickening spirit in the new birth.

Water Baptism is for remission of sins, spirit baptism is for adoption into the new creation.

The man, Jesus, born of Mary was regenerated and reborn by baptism and death. What came from heaven was spiritual God what returned to heaven was spiritual man, the first of the new creation and the first born of creation, another alpha/omega complex.

Water Baptism is not Just a public demonstration of faith or a christian rite of initiation it is much more than that.

When we say we apply the blood of Jesus for remission of sins we do not see any blood in the natural, but in the spiritual, there is healing spiritual and physical, so it is with water baptism.
When we are baptised sins are remitted we are reborn justified to God fit to be partakers of his Holy Nature.

Baptism doth now save us to be born of the spirit.

[Guest]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

(((CEW))) response noted and as promised I am going to defend my position anyway.... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

First of all I can see that where there is speculation there is also a lack of understanding in some key areas of scripture, which I believe every Christian should be well equipped both for the sake of knowing and being able to make application.

First of all I believe that we can all agree as (((Accepted))) said that when the first man Adam sinned all of mankind became guilty, born as it were into sin. What that means is that genetically sin is encoded into our genes. We are not sinners because we sin we sin because we are born, bred, genetically coded and imprinted with sin, we are born sinners like being born black or white.

Secondly- God is perfectly righteous, perfectly sinless, perfectly JUST. In order to redeem man to Himself it was required that they would have to be reborn and made into the image of Himself...pure, righteous and without blemish. How could that be done? He Himself would have to atone for this sin. Why? Because God is perfectly JUST. Therefore inorder that justice is served whereby sin is punished once for all, a pure sacrifice would have to be made. Who would fit the bill? No one born of the sin nature could do because the person would have to be without sin, inorder for God's perfect justice to be served. Therefore He put off His God head, humbled Himself came in the likeness of man, was born of woman and took upon himself the sin of the entire world in order that He Himself might make atonement for the sins of the entire world. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21)


When you asked the question why did Jesus (The Son of God the one chosen from the foundation of the world to make atonement of sin for mankind...my addition) have to be baptized? Jesus Himself answered the question in John 3:5 " I tell you the truth, unless a man is born again of water and of the spirit he may not enter into heaven ) Not only was he speaking of sinful man, He was also speaking of Himself. Why? Because Jesus came in the likeness of man, and although he was God pure, spotless and without sin, what did he do? He had taken on the sins of the whole world he became just like us - born to woman. He was branded guilty before God. Now inorder that justice and righteousness be carried out He Himself would have to satisfy the same requirement to re-enter into heaven. He would have to be reborn of the water and the spirit.


Hence we see that when He went to be baptized of John, John questioned Him saying as how he John was not even suitable to untie His sandals let alone baptize him, in fact John said "I am the one that should be asking you to baptize me." Here is Matthews account: Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me? " Matt.3 13-14 . John knew who Jesus was but Jesus knew more about Himself that even John knew. He knew that He was of a dual nature. He was God and Man. Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." (Matt.3:15) What righteousness is Jesus talking about? God's perfect justice, by which the requirement was made that in order for man born of woman to enter into the kingdom of heaven he must be born again. Although Jesus was very God he was also very Man . He Himself would have to fulfill the same requirement.

You alluded to the fact that in order for Him to begin ministry he would have to be baptized. Jesus did not come to do ministry HE CAME TO DIE FOR US IN ORDER TO REDEEM US TO HIMSELF AGAIN any ministry that He would do - although necessary- was secondary to that. First of all we see that at the moment that He came out of the water, the Holy Spirit decended upon Him... As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.(Matt.3:16)
At this point He had now recieved the Holy Spirit and was reborn of the Holy Spirit. Now notice what happens next, And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matt.3:17)nowhere else or at any other time did God speak publicly making a claim to His Son till now. At this moment Jesus was transformed into the righteousness of God, and fully reborn to perfection to be able to carry out the function for which He came which was to die...pure and spotless, without sin. Which sin, the sin that is intrisic to man born of woman. When He shed His blood at Calvary He was perfectly pure. The sins that he would atone for was not His sins but ours. Immediately after this he was taken into the wilderness to be tested of the devil. Why? to see if there was even an ounce of sin in Him. If He had failed on even one point He would not have been able to carry out His mission, which as we all should know was to die. After that He called His disciples and began His ministry as the one Chosen of God to die for man.
All that He would teach led back to Himself, as the propitiation for the sins of mankind.

Did He have to do it? No!
Could He have saved Himself? Yes
Did He have to be baptized? No!
Did He have to come to earth to save mankind? No!

Fact is God did not have to do any of the above, but He did it because He loved us so much...John 3:16. He himself didnot have to do any of the things He did, but perfect JUSTICE required it, and perfect LOVE inspired it.

[kthydvs]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]
Question: If Jesus had no sin, why did He come to John to be baptized? [/qb]

The baptism of Jesus himself as performed by John must of necessity have had a meaning and purpose quite different from John's baptism, as Jesus 'committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth' (1Pe 2:22). So he could not submit to an act symbolizing repentance. Undoubtedly it was for this reason that John objected to baptizing Jesus. But Jesus said "Let it be this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous" (Mt 3:13-15).

Luke states that Jesus was praying at the time of his baptism (Lu 3:21) Further, the writer if the letter to the Hebrews says that when Jesus Christ came "into the worls" (that is, not when he was born and could not read and say these words, but when he presented himself for baptism and began his ministry) he was saying in accord with Psalm 40:6-8 (LXX) "Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me...Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) so do to your will O God" (Heb 10:5-9). Jesus was by birth a member of the Jewish nation, which nation was in a national covenant with God,namely, The Law covenant (Ex 19:5-8; Ge:4:4). Jesus, by reason of this fact, was therefore already in a covenant relationship with God when he thus presented himself to John for baptism. Jesus was there doing something more than what was required of him under Law. He was presenting himself to his Father to do his Father's "will" with reference to the offering of his own "prepared" body and with regard to doing away with animal sacrifices that were offered according to the Law. The apostle Paul comments: "By the said "will" we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all time" (Heb 10:10). The Father's will for Jesus also involved activity in connection with the Kingdom, and for this service too Jesus presented himself (Lu 4:43; 17:20,21). Jehovah accepted and acknowledged this presentation of his Son, annointing him with holy spirit and saying "You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you" (Mt 1:9-11; Lu 3:21-23; Mt 3:13-17).

[Diplomat]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

kumba1: Thanks for sharing that rather interesting perspective. I have no problems with it at all.

[Diplomat]

Re: Question to Ponder...Jesus' Baptism

Originally posted by Jedi:

You alluded to the fact that in order for Him to begin ministry he would have to be baptized.

I said no such thing at all, nor would I have alluded to it either. Such a statement would be terribly erroneous. For both our sakes, please ask me for clarification if you are not quite sure of/about something I said [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] .