Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

[Queen]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

I am just thinking: So this feast is in celebration of the King's 3rd year reign. Assuming the king celebrated his reign each year, It may have been custom for Vashti to be requested and obliged to go strutting her stuff, to please those drunkards. As a young wife and Queen, Vashti, may have given in to the humiliation of being put on display. The third time around, she may have had enough and refused to put her self through such humiliation again. Though it caused her death, I say good for her.


And another thing, that King didn't seem to have too much of a back bone. He had second thoughts of putting his wife to death the following morning but he, like a puppet on a string, allowed his counsellors make the decision for him. The king didn't show too much smarts or character there.

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

Originally posted by Queen:

I am just thinking: So this feast is in celebration of the King's 3rd year reign. Assuming the king celebrated his reign each year, It may have been custom for Vashti to be requested and obliged to go strutting her stuff, to please those drunkards. As a young wife and Queen, Vashti, may have given in to the humiliation of being put on display. The third time around, she may have had enough and refused to put her self through such humiliation again. Though it caused her death, I say good for her.

That would be a bit of stretch, I think. This was the mother of all parties (MOAP) - six months worth of planning - and we are told: "...On the seventh day of the party, the king, high on the wine, ordered the seven eunuchs who were his personal servants (Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha, Abagtha, Zethar, and Carcas) to bring him Queen Vashti resplendent in her royal crown. He wanted to show off her beauty to the guests and officials. She was extremely good-looking." It seems the guy got drunk - after 7 days of partying he would be drunk - and went too far with his request. Incidentally, the name Vashti means "beautiful" so given the significance of names in those days, she must have been stunning for him to want to show her off.

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

MG: Lilith - the mythical first wife of Adam, and whose name is usually derived from the Babylonian-Assyrian word lilitu, a female demon, or wind-spirit'- one of a triad mentioned in Babylonian spells. You wouldn't expect to find her in the Bible, would you? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] . Very interesting piece I found in the book "Hebrew Myths" by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, though that it would warrant its own thread.

[Dailybread]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

I am coming out on a limb here but isn't it customary for men to introduce their wives to their guest? I've read the excerpts that are posted here and if in fact she was ordered to come out in her nakedness then that would be dead wrong and she had all rights to choose not to go. However, I can't understand that she was ordered to come out in her crown and no clothing... To show her fairness to me is simply to say how beautiful she is (every happily married man that I know is quick to put is wife on a pedestal whether it’s for her inner beauty or her outer). Although the king was drunk I don’t think this was any different. It was probably customary for her to come out when she’s called and not before. She knew the king was drunk and chose not to.

This was the third year of them reigning together and this I’m sure was not the first party to which she was invited. I unfortunately do not see the strength that others see, I see her in her stubbornness. At the time the decree was passed she had already disobeyed and the decree came about as a result of that. Had the decree been made prior to her actions then maybe I would be able to see her strength.

The morning after the king did not want to follow through with it because he had spent the night with his wife who probably cried to him all night asking him to change his mind. However, because the king had counselors in the same way the president has advisors. He of course through the pressure of the counselors followed through. I’m not saying it was right or wrong but it was apparently in God’s plan.

Queen Vashti coming from the lineage of king Nebuchadnezzar of course knew his way of doing things and more than likely had her own plan to carry out.

These are just my thoughts however. Like I said, if she was indeed ordered to show her fairness in her nakedness then she was right but unfortunately I don’t see that.

[Dailybread]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] Here's another perspective:

"As we take a final look at submission, we learn about submission to authority as we remember Queen Vashti. It is easy to read this story of Queen Vashti, and overlook the lesson in the debate of right and wrong. We could contemplate her reasons for her lack of submission such as she was too busy with her own feast, which she was holding, that she didn't want to appear to a brood of drunken men, or that she may have been in fact asserting her will, or angry with her husband. The fact is we don't have enough information to determine the heart of Vashti, but we do have a wonderful example of failure to submit and the consequences thereof, thus, that will be our focus. Romans 13:1-2 teaches us "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." While Vashti failed to submit to her husband, there was even a greater malady at hand, which was that she failed to submit to what in these times was the ultimate worldly authority: THE KING. For one to disobey a king's order, was unthinkable, and often cost one's life. Vashti was merely stripped of her position. While she lost everything she knew, it could have been far worse. She could have lost her head. Her disregard for the law of the land, cost her life as she knew it, as it was taken and given to another."

Source: Queen Vashti & Authority.

Needless to say, I think something is lost in this point of view. The author qualifies his position by continuing:

"Now, I know such teaching of God's word always brings questions for we also have some sound biblical examples of defying authority. Therefore, we find the lesson is not exactly blind obedience, but rather how to gather the understanding of when, where, and what is to be our guidance for submission. We have to be careful when we deal with understanding of defying authority, because our human nature is such that we will convince ourselves of our rights and justify that disobedience which is unjust. We must not base our decisions upon our feelings. In order to understand authority, we must determine our ultimate authority, which is GOD's Word. Notice I did not say God, but God's word, for although He speaks to us in our spirit, He speaks what is clarified and solidified by His written word. Therefore, if we feel for certain God is leading us to take an action, especially concerning authority, or disobedience to the laws of the land, then we must seek His word to verify. This gives us guard against strictly acting out our feelings, which should never take precedence over His written word. When our feelings and God's word collide and differ, we can rest assured that our deceitful heart is seeking to lead us astray."

It would seem he is suggesting that Vashti should have submitted, no matter how debasing the King's request was. [/qb]

I don't know CEW but I agree with his points, considering that she was not ordered out in her nakedness. I just don't see that.

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

DB: I see what you struggle with, but historical data - as posted by Queen - indicates that Vashti was ordered out in her nakedness, regarded obviously by some as punishment for her tradition of forcing Jewish girls to work before her on Shabbat stripped of their clothing. What is interesting is that obviously there is no indication that the King predetermined it to be punishment, he just wanting to show her off, but seeing that Esther's ascension to the throne and the ultimate deliverance of the Jewish people as a result of her efforts were made possible by the demise of Vashti, it would not be a stretch to wonder if this was not somewhat divinely orchestrated. Remember, without the story of Queen Vashti, there would no story of Esther.

Considering what was at stake, divinely orchestrated or not, it was a bold move on Vashti's part to not submit in this particular situation. While I do agree with you that there may have been other parties, this one certainly was the mother of all parties. After seven days of drinking, we can well appreciate the lewdness that may have been present and that could also have been a part of what influenced Vashti's decision. Interestingly, some literature have her as being a feminist hero and I can easily see why.

Edited to add:

Here is another point of view which suggests that Vashti may have had a problem with this particular feast and the order for her to appear there.

"Vashti's offense and the king's response. The commentators raise numerous questions regarding this event. Disobeying a king was considered the most serious offense and was always punished by death. Indeed, later in the story even Queen Esther attests that were she to appear before the king uninvited she would be put to death. Certainly Vashti who had defied the king's explicit command deserved the death penalty. What room was there for leniency?

Furthermore, Memuchan's argument that this would influence the women of the kingdom seems insignificant in the face of Vashti's act of rebellion.

The answer lies in the Megillah's description of the nature of this feast. Unlike the first feast, which was to show off the king's wealth, this feast was to please the people. Thus no one was forced to drink more than he wished, "for so had the king ordered." Indeed "all the stewards of his household," the bakers, butchers and butlers (Rashi) were to "comply with each man's wish."

Thus Vashti's refusal to appear against her will is less sinful when viewed in the context of that particular feast. (Likkutei Sichot, vol. 36)"

Source: Virtual Purim.

[britisha]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

Well, I am not an Old Testament scholar, and have NOT read in any great detail some of these stories presented there. However I cannot help but wonder about the ways in which some of us interpret these happenings in terms of modern day life. This reminds me of comments made here about slavery, comparing modern day slavery to slavery in the Old Testament, two phenomena that I would regard as separate and even distinct.

Getting back to this thread, I notice references being made to "male chauvinist" and things like that. What were the customs and mores of those times? Are we saying that the Bible supported male chauvinism? This argument could and will be used by many who wish to criticize negatively the Bible.


I can't also help but commenting on this from thepiece that Dailybread cited:

"As we take a final look at submission, we learn about submission to authority as we remember Queen Vashti. It is easy to read this story of Queen Vashti, and overlook the lesson in the debate of right and wrong. We could contemplate her reasons for her lack of submission such as she was too busy with her own feast, which she was holding, that she didn't want to appear to a brood of drunken men, or that she may have been in fact asserting her will, or angry with her husband. The fact is we don't have enough information to determine the heart of Vashti, but we do have a wonderful example of failure to submit and the consequences thereof, thus, that will be our focus. Romans 13:1-2 teaches us "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." While Vashti failed to submit to her husband, there was even a greater malady at hand, which was that she failed to submit to what in these times was the ultimate worldly authority: THE KING. For one to disobey a king's order, was unthinkable, and often cost one's life. Vashti was merely stripped of her position. While she lost everything she knew, it could have been far worse. She could have lost her head. Her disregard for the law of the land, cost her life as she knew it, as it was taken and given to another."

While what is being demonstrated here with reference to the King is the customs of the day; I believe that this commentary is non-sensical. It demonstrates NOTHING related to obeying authority. Authority carries a serious responsibility, which includes democracy and fairness, rendering judgements fully clothed in a right mind...to put it simply. Now from the readings the King was drunk...under the influence... he was unable therefore to make any meaningful or sensible decisions, based on his drunkenness....{and I am inerpreting this from modern day scenarios the way some of you are}

Therefore the piece by trying to use this to show obedience to authority is way off course. Again on the basis of his being drunk, wrong decisions were made. This is not to say that he could have ruled any differently had he not been drunk, but now I have to blame this on his drunkeness. Had his drunkeness not entered the picture, the piece might have had some merit IMHO, but clearly it does not.

I wonder how the writer would've reacted if the King had ordered that all children be beheaded and refusal punishable by death. Would that declare "obedience to authority"? I think NOT!!
...and this: "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves."

What nonsense!! Could this have applied to Communist Russia or Hitler as well?

Now here's a good argument for separation of church and state!!

[mountaingal]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb] MG: Lilith - the mythical first wife of Adam, and whose name is usually derived from the Babylonian-Assyrian word lilitu, a female demon, or wind-spirit'- one of a triad mentioned in Babylonian spells. You wouldn't expect to find her in the Bible, would you? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] . Very interesting piece I found in the book "Hebrew Myths" by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, though that it would warrant its own thread. [/qb]

Thanks for this, CEW. Of course, from my position, it's somewhat ironic to describel Lilith as a mythical first wife, since I consider Adam and Eve as mythical as well, so I wouldn't expect Lilith to be any different, lol!

I had heard she was mentioned in the Apocyrpha, which is like an unabridged version of the Bible, is it not? Anyway, if you're reluctant to explore Lilith, that's fine. I just wanted to find out her role in the whole Adam/Eve mythology - like how she became Adam's wife, and how she became supplanted by Eve.

[mountaingal]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

You know what, CEW, never mind. I just looked up Lilith myself. And though I have to say I found the character admirable in many ways, I can see where information about her would not fit into the spirit of your discussions on women of the bible.

maybe a more agnostic Christian than yourself [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] will take some time to explain Lilith to me. I'll start a separate thread.

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

MG: Not reluctant at all, though I am not quite familiar with the subject matter. As indicated, I have done some reading on it and am more than open to tossing my two cents worth around in a separate thread.

Britisha: So as not to be accused of a bias, what I have done - for balance sake - is to include different perspectives from various sources even if I do not agree with it personally. The particular piece you referenced is a case in point. I think any good discussion can only be enhanced with various - and potentially conflicting - view points.

As a student of the Bible, I have always maintained that we have to understand behaviors/actions/attitudes as it relates to the laws, customs, and cultures of the day. It is true that the terminology "male chauvinism" was used by me, but that is how we perceive that behavior today. Back then, for the most part women did not have a voice and as is the case in some countries today, were nobodies. I simply found it interesting that some of the customs then are no different than they are today, and that was the point being made.

[Diplomat]

Re: Women Of The Bible (WOTB) - Vashti

Originally posted by mountaingal:
[qb] You know what, CEW, never mind. I just looked up Lilith myself. And though I have to say I found the character admirable in many ways, I can see where information about her would not fit into the spirit of your discussions on women of the bible.

maybe a more agnostic Christian than yourself [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] will take some time to explain Lilith to me. I'll start a separate thread. [/qb]

Isn't "agnostic Christian" a contradiction? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I mean, historically, "agnosticism" does not merely mean a suspension of judgment, but also the intellectual justification for a disregard of theology.