Young Christians and marriage

[Mutty]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by Compry:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]What if the bad choice places the parties involved in a bad marriage? [/qb]

The church should then ensure that the couple exhaust everything possible to fix the bad marriage. If it is beyond reconciliation then the couple should not be forced to stay in a situation that is negatively affecting their lives and possibly (if applicable) their children's lives. [/qb]

While that mnakes every bit of common sense, what about the biblical mandate that marriages can only be dissolved through death and/or infidelity (if I am recalling correctly)? Unless "bad" includes either of these, can a marriage still be dissolved or is this an infamous "gray area" where common sense goes beyond [New Testament] biblical command?

[Diplomat]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:

I hear you CEW and agree with Ephra also, however, maybe I'm being picky, but was this a contradiction in what you said:

"There are situations however in which it is wrong to counsel someone to remain in an absolutely bad marriage, and it is true that the Church - generally speaking - has not always acted wisely in some of these situations.
On the other hand, the Church cannot simply counsel people to leave their marriage because someone made a bad choice.

What if the bad choice places the parties involved in a bad marriage?

I agree with Compry, and no, what I stated prior is not a contradiction. There are some marriages that are so far gone that a separation/divorce is the only viable option. This is not the ideal situation, but where human beings become self-serving, and hardness of the heart sets in, the interests of those who are most at risk has to be protected.

A 'bad choice' does not necessarily mean the marriage is irrepairable. Couples sometimes go to war over little things, and this is where counseling can sometimes help. A part of the problem is that society tells us that if we are not happy with what we have, then we are free to leave it and go look elsewhere. The Church cannot 'preach' that message.

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

To my way of thinking, historically marriage has always about controlling women (girls) and their sexual appetites, and their access to sexual partners. "Is she a virgin?" "Are these really my children." Until the '60's women were often totally controlled by societie's impression of the woman's sexual history.

I grew up as a military brat in the 40's and 50's and never knew any kid from a divorced family. Nor did I know any grownup who was ever divorced.

But after the pill, and women's liberation, EVERYTHING changed. Virginity, and a young woman's sexual history doesn't count for much any longer, except with the fundamentalists of all faiths. But with the great unwashed masses in America, two generations have passed since women gained control their reproduction from the gods. Therefore the meaning of marriage has completely changed.

Marriage is now a choice, an equal choice. It reflects the perfect ideal that both parties are equally in love, but it does not imply that the woman is a virgin. It means that NOW they both swear to be faithful sexually, and expect their partner to be faithful. And also it is a contract about faithfulness, and if either party fails to keep their sexual activity within the marriage boundaries, then that is reason enough for the contract to be broken, and that the laws of the state or the agreements within the marriage contract, now go into effect with regards to joint property division.

_

[Guest]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Mutty, what he said.

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]I agree with Compry, and no, what I stated prior is not a contradiction. There are some marriages that are so far gone that a separation/divorce is the only viable option. This is not the ideal situation, but where human beings become self-serving, and hardness of the heart sets in, the interests of those who are most at risk has to be protected.

A 'bad choice' does not necessarily mean the marriage is irrepairable. Couples sometimes go to war over little things, and this is where counseling can sometimes help. A part of the problem is that society tells us that if we are not happy with what we have, then we are free to leave it and go look elsewhere. The Church cannot 'preach' that message. [/qb]

[DC]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Interesting...

I do agree with Chaz[and others] but then I am thinking Tropicana's statement is also not way off either-realistically speaking:

People weren't meant to be alone

Human beings do have an inate yearning for permanence and intimacy found in committed relationships. Do you think the Church has a healthy,practical balanced approach to the issue of human sexuality? Could this be part of the root problem of the failed mariages?

[Diplomat]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

DC: Outside of context, Tropicana's statement - as quoted by you - is correct. In the context of the discussion, no one was suggesting otherwise.

Human beings do have an inate yearning for permanence and intimacy found in committed relationships. Do you think the Church has a healthy,practical balanced approach to the issue of human sexuality? Could this be part of the root problem of the failed mariages?

As we have discussed on separate occasions, the answer to your first question is a resounding "No", generally speaking, and an equally resounding "Yes" to the second.

[chazproductions]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

I think that this is flawed thinking. People weren't meant to be alone.

Tropicana you totally missed my point.

That wasn't what she was saying. As a matter of fact, I totally agree with her in that we have to be whole within ourselves first, and when that special someone comes into our lives, they are not completing us, but complementing us instead.

CEW you got what I meant. It's about loving yourself and then and only then can you truly love another. It's not about whether or not we are meant to be alone, the true of the matter is I'd much rather be alone than be with broken people.

[chazproductions]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

I totally understand Mutty. They did do that in the church I went to. Tis, Sad, but true. I know some girls who got married early only to have abusive husbands or husbands who abused drugs on the DL or husbands they fell out of love with because they have come to realize they never knew each other. We need to learn we don't need a man or woman to make us whole. We have to be whole/complete on our own and then that person will enrich our lives and we theirs.

I'm trying to figure out where in my reasoning I mentioned human beings are meant to be alone. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] What I am saying is that we should be whole before we enter ANY relationship. Broken people make for horrible and broken relationships. Just because we weren't made to be alone doesn't mean we should go or stay into crappy relationships...Also I don't believe that infidelity is the only reason to end a marriage. I knew someone once who got the crap kicked out of her by an abusive husband and she was encouraged by church people to stay because she had kids. She was told to pray on it, well eighteen years of praying and the beatings got worst, he almost killed her and finally she found the courage to leave. Some of those people did not like that. Anyway there was this one spiritual person who told her year after year, to leave or her husband was going to kill her one day...I think that God was speaking through that person. This is what I mean about being whole, if this woman wasn't insecure she probably would have left years ago. I strongly believe that God helps those who help themselves. And when she took that step He was right there helping her along the way.

If my husband ever laid a hand on me I would leave him because I've LEARNED this if they get away with it once they'll do it again. So I say this to any man, you have too choices if you hit/beat me, you can either loose your hand or go to jail.

Being a Christian myself I take marriage VERY seriously. But what we need to understand is that people do change (not the essence) and sometimes you don't notice the telling signs until you get married and live with that person and they can no longer hide who they really are (true colors comes shining through). That's why it's good getting to know someone and no rush the process.

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:
To my way of thinking, historically marriage has always about controlling women (girls) and their sexual appetites, and their access to sexual partners. "Is she a virgin?" "Are these really my children." Until the '60's women were often totally controlled by societie's impression of the woman's sexual history.

I grew up as a military brat in the 40's and 50's and never knew any kid from a divorced family. Nor did I know any grownup who was ever divorced.

But after the pill, and women's liberation, EVERYTHING changed. Virginity, and a young woman's sexual history doesn't count for much any longer, except with the fundamentalists of all faiths. But with the great unwashed masses in America, two generations have passed since women gained control their reproduction from the gods. Therefore the meaning of marriage has completely changed.

And where has it gotten us? Two generations of men who are playas...who have no intentions of settling down as they can get all the sex they can handle and then some without commitment. The internet has made things worse. For the cost of a movie and a cup of coffee, a man can meet a woman on a dating site and be "doing it" hours later. It is estimated that over 50% of couples have sex on the first date. To quote the authors of the book "The Rules for on-line Dating"... "This is quicker and MUCH cheaper than any call girl service.".

Marriage is now a choice, an equal choice.

STRONGLY disagree.

It reflects the perfect ideal that both parties are equally in love, but it does not imply that the woman is a virgin. It means that NOW they both swear to be faithful sexually, and expect their partner to be faithful. And also it is a contract about faithfulness, and if either party fails to keep their sexual activity within the marriage boundaries, then that is reason enough for the contract to be broken, and that the laws of the state or the agreements within the marriage contract, now go into effect with regards to joint property division.

I would gladly see a return to 1950s style morees (how do you spell it) minus the racism.

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by DC:
[qb] Interesting...

I do agree with Chaz[and others] but then I am thinking Tropicana's statement is also not way off either-realistically speaking:

People weren't meant to be alone

Human beings do have an inate yearning for permanence and intimacy found in committed relationships. Do you think the Church has a healthy,practical balanced approach to the issue of human sexuality? Could this be part of the root problem of the failed mariages?
[/qb]

No I don't feel the church has a balanced approach. In fact, I find churches backing away from these issues and leaving singles and singles again to fend for themselves. In predominantly White churhces, the men take their cue from the media and hunt down young skinny blondes with big boobs in their 20s. I am talking big horse men in their 40s and 50s.

I sawe yet another example of this last Sunday. There is a church that I used to attend sometimes that had a lot of singles. I noticed this pattern in the men. Last Sunday, I had arranged to meet a man at one of the large shopping malls for a date. I had forgotten that this church has now opened a satellite in the movie theatre in that mall. I walked in as people were leaving. There is a very attractive man (a lawyer) who was in the Bible study I used to attend (yes the same Bible study with the blonde woman who wore the belly dancing costume. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] Anyway, I noticed that he never dated any of the women at the church. I tried to engage him but he wouldn't even fart pon me. Anyway, he came along and we were talking. He asked if I had come to attend the service and been late. I said "No I am meeting someone". He said that he had plans too. Next thing who comes along? This blonde woman who used to attend the SAME Bible study with us. She would wear VERY short skirts and low cut tops to the Bible study. At the time, we attended the study together, she had a boyfriend. Anyway, she comse along "Hi, how are you doing, haven't seen you for a while. you should come out sometime". ( Yeah right. Why would I? There were no Black men and not ONE of the White guys would ever think of asking any of the Black women out.) And the two of them went off arm in arm. BTW, this man had a leadership position in the launch of the new satellite location for the church.

Bottom line is, in the Toronto singles scene, int he predominantly White evangelical churches, if you don't fit a certain image as a woman..you are out in the cold. Heaven forbid if you are Black, Asian, a few pounds overweight or lacking in cover girl looks. In many instances, the ratio of women to men is 20:1 and some men play it for all it's worth picking up women on Christian dating sites and at Christian singles events and pressuring them for sex. I have seen many women who allow the men to engage in heavy petting with them dumped. The men move on to their next target. I am not sure what goes on in the Black churches. Perhaps someone can enlighten us. I just don't see how this is an improvement over the situation that Mutty described in the opening post for this thread.

While that mnakes every bit of common sense, what about the biblical mandate that marriages can only be dissolved through death and/or infidelity (if I am recalling correctly)?

There is also the desertion by an unbelieving spouse of which Paul spoke in Corinthians:

Corinthians 7


Marriage

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[1] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.

[Guest]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Last Sunday, I had arranged to meet a man at one of the large shopping malls for a date.

Tropicana, 6 weeks man or a different man? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Same man and it won't be 6 weeks until Sunday. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Guest]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Same man and it won't be 6 weeks until Sunday. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

Thank God because I was about to...nevermind. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

BTW, I have a question for you in Ackee & Saltfish.

[DC]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by chazproductions:
[QB]

I totally understand Mutty. They did do that in the church I went to. Tis, Sad, but true. I know some girls who got married early only to have abusive husbands or husbands who abused drugs on the DL or husbands they fell out of love with because they have come to realize they never knew each other. We need to learn we don't need a man or woman to make us whole. We have to be whole/complete on our own and then that person will enrich our lives and we theirs.

I'm trying to figure out where in my reasoning I mentioned human beings are meant to be alone. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Me too Chaz..can't find it either! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyways, let me say that I was not implying that you(or others-MR CEW [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) were suggesting that people were meant to be alone. I was sort of exploring from the general statement of fact-"people were truly 'not' meant to be alone"...hopefully that clears it up...

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

I quoted it before and I'll quote it again. Here is where I got that implication

We need to learn we don't need a man or woman to make us whole. We have to be whole/complete on our own and then that person will enrich our lives and we theirs.

People need people. Men NEED to be with men and women NEED to be with women. It is not normal or healthy for them to be alone. Now some specific individuals like the apostle Paul may have the gift of singleness but this is the exception not the rule. Even the apostle Paul clearly stated that not everyone has his gift. I think there is way too much a woman doesn't need a man thinking in our community.