Young Christians and marriage

[chazproductions]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

I quoted it before and I'll quote it again. Here is where I got that implication


quote:
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We need to learn we don't need a man or woman to make us whole. We have to be whole/complete on our own and then that person will enrich our lives and we theirs.
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People need people. Men NEED to be with men and women NEED to be with women. It is not normal or healthy for them to be alone. Now some specific individuals like the apostle Paul may have the gift of singleness but this is the exception not the rule. Even the apostle Paul clearly stated that not everyone has his gift. I think there is way too much a woman doesn't need a man thinking in our community.

AGAIN I will say I did NOT imply or suggest we should be alone. Please go and reread my post. You are putting what you feel I posted as oppose to what I actually posted. I WAS SAYING THAT WE DON'T NEED ANYONE TO MAKE US WHOLE. And it is right there in the portion you pulled out of my post. AGAIN I will say I did NOT state or Imply that we as individuals should be alone. WHAT I AM SAYING IS THIS: You have to get to know yourself and love yourself before you can try to know or love anyone else. We need a spouse to complement us because THEY CAN NEVER MAKE US WHOLE if we aren't already WHOLE within ourselves. This will be the last time I address what my post means.

[Diplomat]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

OK...now that we have THAT sorted out, if anyone else repeats it, I'm gonna get dizzy [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Alright CEW. Now that that that is cleared up back to the topic at hand. I do think it's important for churches to take a proactive role in helping young people find partners, especially in the Black community. If they wait until they are older, it will be much more difficult. Instead of seeing the examples you provided as a negative Mutty, I see them as a positive and I wish that I had attended a church like that when I was in my late teens/early twenties. The advice I would give young Black woman is get enough education so that you can get a decent job and leave it at that. Then, focus on finding a partner. You can always get more education later.

[SistahD]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Same man and it won't be 6 weeks until Sunday. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

Time flies don't it!?

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

I know...blew through my last track record of 1 1/2 weeks before the morphing kicked in.

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

This is exactly why I have expressed what may seem like an unorthodox POV in this thread. Rummaging through a whole barrel of toads is no fun. I speak with women both inside and outside the church who are having a WHALE of a time finding partners once they pass 30, either after a divorce or to get married in the first place.

If the churches give young people proper guidance to marry early and choose an appropriate partner the first time round, we would avoid these disastrous marriages and then having to look for a partner when one is out of your 20s...it is hell. Look how long it has taken me to find someone where there is even a prayer of something.

[DC]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

In my opinion, I think the Church is being proactive in finding partners amongst the young people-see Mutty’s initial post. It appears to me the general trend in christendom is that the entire focus is on “finding a partner” (even though I think we are moving away from that approach slowly but surely). I think part of the solution can be found in both Tropicana’s and Chaz’s arguments.

I think it is a matter of the Church being open and honest in dealing with the “raging hormones”/sexuality issues; we are sexual beings [people need each other]. The balancing focus that should be taught is that singlehood is a wonderful season in which they can explore who they are and grow and develop into their own persons[we do not need anyone to make us whole]. It is the time to also enjoy and appreciate ourselves for who we are and exuding a confidence in self that emanates from the inside out. I think that can be the balanced perspective. The solution is found in both arguments IMO...

[Fledgist]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb]

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:
To my way of thinking, historically marriage has always about controlling women (girls) and their sexual appetites, and their access to sexual partners. "Is she a virgin?" "Are these really my children." Until the '60's women were often totally controlled by societie's impression of the woman's sexual history.

I grew up as a military brat in the 40's and 50's and never knew any kid from a divorced family. Nor did I know any grownup who was ever divorced.

But after the pill, and women's liberation, EVERYTHING changed. Virginity, and a young woman's sexual history doesn't count for much any longer, except with the fundamentalists of all faiths. But with the great unwashed masses in America, two generations have passed since women gained control their reproduction from the gods. Therefore the meaning of marriage has completely changed.

And where has it gotten us? Two generations of men who are playas...who have no intentions of settling down as they can get all the sex they can handle and then some without commitment. The internet has made things worse. For the cost of a movie and a cup of coffee, a man can meet a woman on a dating site and be "doing it" hours later. It is estimated that over 50% of couples have sex on the first date. To quote the authors of the book "The Rules for on-line Dating"... "This is quicker and MUCH cheaper than any call girl service.".

Marriage is now a choice, an equal choice.

STRONGLY disagree.

It reflects the perfect ideal that both parties are equally in love, but it does not imply that the woman is a virgin. It means that NOW they both swear to be faithful sexually, and expect their partner to be faithful. And also it is a contract about faithfulness, and if either party fails to keep their sexual activity within the marriage boundaries, then that is reason enough for the contract to be broken, and that the laws of the state or the agreements within the marriage contract, now go into effect with regards to joint property division.

I would gladly see a return to 1950s style morees (how do you spell it) minus the racism. [/qb]

Mores.

With or without the hoop skirts?

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

The balancing focus that should be taught is that singlehood is a wonderful season in which they can explore who they are and grow and develop into their own persons[we do not need anyone to make us whole]. It is the time to also enjoy and appreciate ourselves for who we are and exuding a confidence in self that emanates from the inside out.

That mesage is fine for people in their teens and early twenties as long as it is counter balanced with "it is not good for man (or woman) to be alone". There is a natural season of singleness. Once it stretches on into the 30s and 40s and not by choice (remember not everyone has the gift of singleness) this is not normal or natural. Do you think we would have such a problem with fornication men playing "just friends" sex games and women dressing immodestly to compete for the attention of the few men who are around if people were happily married during their 30s and 40s.

When it comes to being single again, I have found the church to be of little help. Actually, I am realizing that this thread is about young people and marriage so I will start a new thread geared to the 30 something crowd. Suffice it to say, that problems that the 30 something crowd is having re: sexuality and marriage could have been avoided if the church had been more proactive when people were in their teens and twenties. Now I wish I had attended Mutty's church when I was a teen and twenty something. The church I attended at that stage put emphasis on "hooking up" for the White kids but for the Black girls (there were no Black men in their teens and twenties other than one or two African university students) were left to fend for themselves while constantly being asked impertinent questions like:

- Are you a late bloomer?
- How come I never see you with any guys?
- Aren't you interested in dating?
- Stop being a fifth wheel. (They would say that if you sat with a couple rather than sitting alone in church.)

Rude, facety and out a ordah people.

It is unfortunate that I had not been exposed to Jamaican bad words at that stage of life. Even as a Christian, those impertinent individuals would have earned two GOOD Jamaican bad words followed up by "If YOU and your sons weren't so racist :verymad: I WOULDN'T be showing up at church services and social fucntions without dates.

See ya in the 30 something thread.

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Here is a reprint of an article that was featured in a Focus on the Family magazine (CEW, do you like them better than Christianity today?)

WHy College Men Aren't Ready to Marry

by Steve Watters

http://www.boundless.org/2002_2003/departments/beyond_buddies/a0000687.html

Editor's Note: A companion article that will run in Boundless next month will take up the topic of "Why College Women Aren't Ready to Marry."
It still happens, but not like it used to. There was a time when weddings followed quickly on the heels of graduation. In fact, a generation ago, couples could almost send out dual graduation/wedding announcements to save postage. That was when the average groom was 22 and the average bride was 20. Today, couples wait a good five years longer.

The reasons for this delay are all over the board, ranging from the demands of additional graduate programs to the state of the economy. According to some marriage experts, however, it’s an issue of guys simply not being mature enough.

“Young people can't select a marriage partner effectively if they don't know themselves well,” says Neil Clark Warren on his eHarmony Web site. Warren argues that people don’t completely form their identities until they’ve emotionally separated from their parents and “discovered the details of their own uniqueness. . . . Prior to their mid-twenties, most young adults haven't defined their goals and needs. They haven't had time to learn to be independent.”

This supports Chaz's point.

This past summer David Popenoe and Barbara Dafoe Whitehead released a study focusing on a group of men aged 25 to 33 who illustrate Warren’s point. Although every man in the study said he hoped to get married some day, all were single and few seemed to be in a hurry to get married anytime soon. “They enjoy their single life and they experience few of the traditional pressures from church, employers or the society that once encouraged men to marry,” say Popenoe and Whitehead. As a result, “boys can remain boys indefinitely.”

Besides a lack of pressure from culture, Popenoe and Whitehead’s study reveals four other traits that keep men from being ready for marriage.

1) Head-in-the-clouds expectations. Today’s single guys don’t seem to have too low a view of marriage — instead their view may be too high. Expectations for a marriage partner are now through the roof. Popping up consistently in various surveys of singles is the concept of a “soul mate.” In a survey by the National Marriage Project, 88 percent of never-married singles agreed, “there is a special person, a soul mate, waiting for you somewhere out there.” Most also assumed they would find that special someone by the time they were ready to get married.

For many Christian singles, this concept is rooted in a belief that God appoints our steps and has a partner in mind for us who will align with those steps. But it seems our concept of a God-ordained mate has changed over the years. “A lot of guys are optimistically waiting for Pamela Anderson to become a Christian,” says John McKeever, a 39-year-old who has led singles groups for over a decade.

Our view of a soul mate has been diluted by self-centered cultural expectations. For one thing, our culture leads us to fixate on external images and to expect a mate with no flaws. But it also has encouraged us to seek out a mate with no expectations for us to change. Popenoe and Whitehead observed this trend in their study where men defined a soul mate as a woman with whom “you are compatible right now,” and who is willing to “take you as you are and not try to change you.” Interestingly, many of the guys in the survey were in relationships with girls they tolerated as second best partners until their soul mates came along.

A guy who is always looking out of the corner of his eye for the perfect mate will be disappointed. Anyone who has read the first chapter of Genesis knows that Eve (pre-fruit snack) was the last perfect mate. Every woman since Eve comes with a personal set of flaws courtesy of original sin. For that matter, so do guys. McKeever is amazed by how often single guys he’s met can raise an impossible bar for a potential mate but still expect that mate to accept them just as they are.

A guy who wants to marry well can improve his chances by striving to personally have the qualities he expects in a mate. The most important qualities a guy can bring into a relationship, are grace and unconditional love. Guys who say they want someone to “take them as they are” really mean they want someone who can see them for all their strengths and weaknesses and still love them. Few women will do that, however, unless they feel that kind of grace and love coming right back at them. Furthermore, guys who won’t take off their “fantasyland” glasses may never be able to realistically evaluate the “real” women who are already in their lives.

2) Financial limbo. Interview a WWII veteran and you’ll often hear stories about marriages routinely built on modest incomes and dependent on help from friends and family. Today’s single men, however, dream big about their marriage’s financial foundation. Popenoe and Whitehead found that the most important priority for singles is “getting set” financially — completing their education and getting a career established. Many guys in their survey felt owning a home in a good neighborhood was a prerequisite to marriage and kids.

Despite such lofty goals, today’s single man is, in reality, more likely to be growing his debt than his net worth. Facing a barrage of credit-card offers during their already expensive college days, it’s no surprise that singles now carry a load of personal debt. According to the student loan service Nellie Mae, today’s college graduate has an average of $20,402 in combined education-loan and credit-card balances.

While it’s an honorable goal to wipe out that debt and buy a nice house before getting married, it’s more practical to just learn how to budget well. Although money is one of the biggest causes of conflict in marriage, the amount of money isn’t always as much an issue as are poor spending habits and the inability to agree on a shared budget. Despite the temptation to stay in consumption mode, the best thing a guy can do with his money is simply follow the age-old discipline of spending less than he earns and striving to get (and stay) out of debt.

A house is a great investment, but as Popenoe says, “pegging the timing of marriage to mortgage rates may substantially delay marriage.”

3) Recreational sex. Although men are delaying marriage, they are not putting off sex. Just under half of all 19-year-olds were sexually active 20 years ago: today it is nine out of 10,” says George Barna, who adds that less than 20 percent of adults who get married for the first time these days is a virgin.

The disconnect between sex and marriage cannot be overestimated as a reason guys are staying single so long. The old expression “why pay for the cow when you can get the milk for free?” is exactly the dynamic that traps hormone-driven men in singleness. Men begin to experience a strong sex drive following puberty. The traditional route to sexual fulfillment via marriage once served to compel men to temper their desire for freedom and commit to one woman and any children that resulted. Now that sex is often available without expectations of marriage, men have lost a foundational reason to commit.

Paul tells the Corinthians that it’s good for singles to stay unmarried as he is, but it’s better to marry than to burn with passion. You’ll notice he only offers two options — live a celibate life available for God’s service or serve God within a committed married life. There’s not a third option for men who want to burn off some passionate steam while waiting for their soul mate to come along.

In the moment, it may be difficult for a man to realize that the things he does to keep from being lonely on the weekend can make it more likely that he will be lonely in the future. The sexual drive is a powerful urge intended to steer men toward, and then cement them in, committed relationships. Unmarried guys shouldn’t be surprised to find sexual passion welling up in them as college students. And those who find creative ways to justify sex before marriage should not be surprised when cosmic decisions about when and who to marry become increasingly cloudy and confusing.

4) No role models. “Young men today live in a peer world,” say Popenoe and Whitehead. They point out that guys not only tend to run with a posse of other single guys, but the likelihood that they’ve grown up in broken homes or as an only child has deprived many of models for healthy marriage.

Still Popenoe believes the most corrosive influences on marriage attitudes today is popular entertainment. Not surprisingly, chart-topping shows like Friends and blockbuster movies celebrating the single years come out of New York and California, states with the highest percentage of never-married singles in the country.

In a PBS special last year, Popenoe said, “If you’re to analyze television, music, movies, and the rest, this is the most anti-marriage and, I might say, anti-child barrage of information that one could imagine. . . . It is all focused on freedom and autonomy and spending money and changing products, including personal relationships.”

Surrounded by peers and consuming a steady diet of popular media, a man is rarely going to find either the motivation or the modeling he needs to marry well. He needs input from someone who made it there — someone who found a way to balance his expectations, control his money and channel his sexual energy.

John McKeever encourages the singles he leads to join a church and meet regularly with married men — especially if the single guy is from a broken home and needs better role models. The key thing is to start balancing out the choir of single messages with voices from the other side.

Most married men will tell you that reaching the altar is more of an art than a science. Truly the issue of marrying the right woman is one of the most mysterious aspects of life. No five-step plan can guarantee success in what often involves supernatural placement and timing; however, the cosmic issue of marrying well need not be further complicated by bad attitudes and habits.

College guys who take practical steps in the areas of marital expectations, budget, sexuality and role models can often find they are ready to get married, not a decade from now when maturity has finally caught up with them, but as soon as opportunity comes along. Maybe even in time to send out the joint announcements.

[Tropicana]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

I don't want to be perceived as engaging in Christian male bashing, don't want to offend our new admin CEW [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] , so here is the companions piece focusing on young Christian women and marriage:

Why College Women aren't ready to Marry

by Bethany Torode

http://www.boundless.org/2002_2003/departments/beyond_buddies/a0000708.html

Most young people want to get married. But young women probably give marriage a lot more thought than young men. Chalk it up to girls maturing faster. We dream about meeting our Prince Charming from the first time we see Cinderella at age 5, and that dream remains constant. In college dorm rooms, it’s not altogether uncommon to find young women dreamily watching Jane Austen movies and pouring over bridal magazines together. But for most college women, marriage is not something they’re seriously preparing for — not the way they’re preparing for their careers.
As Steve Watters pointed out in his article “Why College Men Aren’t Ready to Marry,” the average age for marriage — for both men and women — has risen significantly since the middle of the last century. Is this a positive sign?

NO!!

Should we be glad that most college women aren’t ready — or at least don’t think they’re ready — for marriage?

Many people would say so. In a culture where a significant portion of the current adult population hasn’t been able to make a marriage last, it seems best to proceed with caution. The assumption is that that the longer you wait to get married, the more ready you will be — emotionally, financially, spiritually — to build a lasting marriage when the time comes.

And in the television shows and movies we watch, the characters enjoy lives of “freedom” — living together in Manhattan high-rises and sleeping around, all while pursuing their exciting careers for years before settling down. Given the alternatives presented in popular entertainment, why would a woman want to get married in her early 20s?


The Search for Self

The reason I hear most often for why young women aren’t ready for marriage is that we need an extended period of independence to “discover ourselves.” When I was married, at age 19, several friends and relatives voiced their sincere concerns about my readiness. They wondered: Did I really know who I was?

At the time, I shrugged off such concerns — Of course I know who I am! What’s that supposed to mean? Now that I’ve been married for a couple years, I can see that I’ve learned a great deal about who I am — because of marriage, not in spite of it.

I don’t think we can “discover ourselves” alone. We most clearly realize who we are as individuals by living in community with others. Adam discovered himself when he looked into Eve’s eyes for the first time — he realized, “This is flesh of my flesh, bone of my bones!” Many people have commented that marriage is a mirror; your spouse and your children reveal to you who you are in ways you would never have seen otherwise. (Not that spouses and kids are the only means for personal growth — siblings, parents, and even college roommates are all instruments God uses for our fine-tuning.)

Interesting.

College and Careerism

A second common reason I hear for delaying marriage is that college women need to focus first and foremost on getting a degree and pursuing a career.

For many young women, “The Degree” and “The Career” have become idols. They are to be pursued at all costs — even the cost of delaying marriage and putting off children indefinitely.HUGE MISTAKE.

After all, this is what we’ve been preparing for since the days of AP Algebra and the ACT.

Often, there is pressure from parents, relatives, and teachers to continue on this path. But what message is this sending? Money seems to have become more of a priority than relationships. It sounds crass to put it that way, which is why most people don’t — they cloak it in terms of “financial stability” or “career opportunity.” But these are ultimately self-based goals, and they are somewhat illusory to boot — there is no true stability outside of God. If your career or finances are taken away, what are you left with? Him, and the tangible assurance of Him that our intimacy with others provides us with.

Don’t get me wrong — degrees and careers can be worthy goals. But neither are holy things, the way getting married and having children are. If the opportunity arises for a young woman to marry, she should stop and ponder what a gift God is offering her — even if it “interferes” with school or work.


Real Reasons

If enjoying your independence, discovering yourself, getting a degree, and pursuing a career aren’t real obstacles to marriage — are there any obstacles? Why aren’t most college women ready for marriage? Here might be a few reasons.

First, many young women today haven’t grown up surrounded by examples of what lasting, holy marriages look like. Even those of us whose parents have managed to keep their marriage together don’t have to look very far into the extended family tree to find broken branches hanging. Many young women are struggling to heal from their parents’ divorces, which can result in a lack of trust towards men and a fear of commitment. It may take them more time before they can healthily enter into marriage.

Second, we have soaked up so many lies from our popular culture that it takes time to unlearn them. For example, one that’s repeated in almost every movie and TV show is that sharing intimacies with a succession of men will not affect your ability to eventually achieve pure and everlasting love with “the One.” Another is the love-at-first-sight lie: that your marriage must be based on a “love” so strong it makes you want to hop into bed with your future spouse the moment your eyes meet.

There’s an assumption that you really can’t “fall” in love with someone who isn’t as good-looking as the movie stars we’ve had unrealistically shaping our ideals since puberty. I struggled with this when I was beginning to get to know my future husband — my feelings started off comfortably, not ravishingly, and I wondered if I “liked” him strongly enough. As we slowly unfolded our souls to each other, the embers began to smolder — and I realized that the “love” portrayed on screen has all the brilliance and staying power of a 4th of July sparkler.

True! True!

Ready or Not

Finally, the main reason I think college women in general aren’t ready for marriage is that they haven’t been taught one key thing: Marriage is hard work. You and Prince Charming will spend a lot more time scrubbing the floors of your souls together than dancing through the clouds. It’s an intense opportunity to work towards selflessness, so that you become increasingly unified with your spouse and with Christ.

Kids are an important part of the package, for the same reasons. They are an external project that you and your spouse must work on together; and they chip away, as nothing else can, at the combined selfishness that inevitably surfaces when two fallen humans become one flesh.

The failure to understand this has had a detrimental affect on society as a whole. When most people enter marriage thinking it exists for the sake of “self-fulfillment,” it’s not surprising that divorce rates have skyrocketed over the last 50 years (at the same time the number of children per family has plummeted).

If college women learn the truth about what marriage entails, I believe they can rise to the occasion. A young woman may never quite “feel ready” for marriage, but if she prepares herself for the sacrifices ahead, she’ll be as ready as she’ll ever be

[DC]

Re: Young Christians and marriage

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[QB] That mesage is fine for people in their teens and early twenties as long as it is counter balanced with "it is not good for man (or woman) to be alone". There is a natural season of singleness. Once it stretches on into the 30s and 40s and not by choice (remember not everyone has the gift of singleness) this is not normal or natural. Do you think we would have such a problem with fornication men playing "just friends" sex games and women dressing immodestly to compete for the attention of the few men who are around if people were happily married during their 30s and 40s.

The church I attended at that stage put emphasis on "hooking up" for the White kids but for the Black girls (there were no Black men in their teens and twenties other than one or two African university students) were left to fend for themselves while constantly being asked impertinent questions like:

- Are you a late bloomer?
- How come I never see you with any guys?
- Aren't you interested in dating?
- Stop being a fifth wheel. (They would say that if you sat with a couple rather than sitting alone in church.)

I would not consider it to be unnatural for someone to be single in the 30’s or 40’s, and *not* possess the gift of singleness. IMO, the single season does not end by a determined age. I think singlehood ends when the person *knows* that he/she is matured enough to handle marital responsiblities and mental focus has changed. An individual can be ready/mature at 18, whereas another individual feel they are not ready for such a committment at 28, 29 even 30. Marriage is a mature and thoughtful decision-not a quick decision made just because hormones are kicking or someone pushes or forces the person into such a relationship or because clock is ticking(lol). In any of these scenarios, it is easy to make the wrong choice.

I do agree with you that the challenges that Christian singles face after a certain age are increased and on different levels(divorce singles, children, fulfilling careers, financial stability etc.) I think the challenge is in the variety of factors that have been added to make the marriage choice even more difficult. The problems of these older singles, however, are real and should be looked at but I still think a foundation in being secure in oneself will determine how the person respond to these challenges. It is important to have that security cemented in teens and younger Christians but I think the same balanced approach applies to singles above and beyond the teens and twenties.

It is unfortunate that I had not been exposed to Jamaican bad words at that stage of life.

Probably a fortunate thing..lol

Unfortunately, those questions/comments do places the stigma on singles-‘something is wrong with you’ or ‘you are an outcast’ if you are not dating. I would say those folks employed the same approach that was used in Mutty’s post-focusing on ‘hooking up’ instead of counterbalancing with “ this is a time to enjoy learning about yourself and becoming a holistic person”. I have learnt that people will always be people so I usually encourage to ignore the comments and move on. It can be difficult to avoid but it is always choice we do have.

The racial factor is not experienced by everyone though. It has tremendous weight in your experience however so I can appreciate the racial emphasis(mind you, I will acknowledge racism do exist in the Church-sad reality).

I'll look more into your articles later-this thread the 3 something thread