Pay them more if they have black skin

[Guest]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Racism in the education system does exist (sometimes the black teachers are just as prejudiced against black students as white teachers are). I hate to burst some people's bubbles, but not all students are 'strong' enough to overcome it. So what, society should just leave them behind because they won't stop 'whining'?

As to the comparison with Asian students, not sure how valid it really is. Are Asians seen to be inferior as black people have been throughout modern history? Remember that lower intelligence was one of the excuses for enslaving our ancestors and while the institution is gone, the thinking that led to it very much exists.

An interesting point raised is how well black immigrant groups are doing. I read an article that examined the phenomenon of how well African-Caribbean students perform as opposed to African-Americans in the US and Africans as compared to African-Caribbean children in the UK. As each generation becomes more assimilated, performance drops. If I come across it again, will post.

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

...Are Asians seen to be inferior as black people have been throughout modern history?...

In some cases, yes. There is a very large population of people that inhabit parts of India but have since dispersed to other nations. They are part of the "scheduled castes" in the hierarchical society that has remained entrenched in the Indian subcontinent for not only centuries but for millenia. These people are formally referred to as Dalits or they go the name "untouchable." Imagine slavery that doesn't last 500 hundred years but has lasted >1,500 years. That is what the Dalits experience up to the 21st century. This is the group that I reference when I spoke of "lower caste" asian students in one of my previous posts. Below is a link that details a little more of their story.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/

I am not diminishing the impact of enslavement of the African diaspora. However, it is but one of many examples of man's inhumanity to man throughout the ages. No one can claim a monopoly on the pain borne by their ancestors just as, eventually, no one can continue to wear that pain like a badge for opportunistic gain. That type of pain is part of who we are be us of African descent, Native American, Jewish, Aboriginal, etc. It cannot be sold for a forty aches and a mule.

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

I hate to burst some people's bubbles, but not all students are 'strong' enough to overcome it. So what, society should just leave them behind because they won't stop 'whining'?

One cannot do everything for the students. They must meet you halfway. Do you know the "Crazy" Joe Clark story, a principal who turned around an inner city high school in one of the toughest sections of New Jersey back in the 1980's? On the very first day of his tenure, he expelled 300 students for fighting, vandalism, drug possession, profanity or abusing teachers. He explains, "If there is no discipline, no learning can take place. Without discipline, there is anarchy. Good citizenship demands attention to responsibilities as well as rights." His story was documented in the film Lean on Me starring Morgan Freeman.

I agree with Joe Clark's methods at times. Teachers and professors are not here to blow sunshine up anyone's a$$es. Its a tough world out there. Be prepared for it or be prepared to be on the bottom rung of the food chain. Excuses don't count for much if you are someone's elses dinner.

[phoenix]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Originally posted by B_P:
[qb] One cannot do everything for the students.They must meet you halfway. [/qb]

Thank you for saying this. Students need to put the time and effort in as well.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

B_P states,"I agree with Joe Clark's methods at times. Teachers and professors are not here to blow sunshine up anyone's a$$es. Its a tough world out there. Be prepared for it or be prepared to be on the bottom rung of the food chain. Excuses don't count for much if you are someone's elses dinner"


This is what I am reffering to when T stated that you are only intrested in educating th"chosen few".

What do you think will happen to the 300 expelled from school?
What alternative systen is there in the school district to educate those kids?
Who will be supporting them for the rest of their lives,either while they are in prison,or being robbed by the?


It is really slightly off key to say that children should 'meet half way,or do their part',because according to the most basic knowledge in child psychology children is always learning. So they by tjust being themselves has achieved that milestone.
the area where adults have dropped the ball is,the question of motivating them to learn what is appropriate for them at diggerent stages of their lives so that they will be able to take their position in society when they become adults.
Children rarely have the knowledge at the appropriate stages in life to do this. They have to be motivated,because memory recollection only works when there is intrest on the part of the person having the experience.

[kia027]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

What do you think will happen to the 300 expelled from school?

They will either choose to shape up and have their expulsion revoked (ie learn the hard way that certain behaviors will not be tolerated), attend the alternative school to learn a trade, or choose to join gangs to train in life shortening survival skills.

We as parents and members of the community must get involved to try and steer all children onto a path to a positively productive life. This falls back on the old yet true saying, 'It takes a village to raise a child' .

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Let me tell you about one of my experiences in high school, Dr. Dudd. I had an excellent teacher for 11th grade English. She made the course material interesting, she encouraged class participation, and she made the process of learning fun. Just about the entire class did so well that by the end of the second quarter, no one was receiving a grade less than a 'B'. At the beginning of the third quarter, the school received a number of transfer students. Three of them ended up in her class. To be fair, they were entirely new to the school system and entirely new to Mrs. Carr and her style of teaching. However, early on, they started being disruptive, rude, and they seemingly craved constant attention. More critically, they weren't doing their work. Being the concerned and caring teacher that she was, Mrs. Carr shifted her focus from the entire class to these three students. She spent so much time with them that slowly she was losing the attention of the rest of the class. By the time the end of the school year rolled around, the three transfer students had flunked out while the rest of us felt cheated and unprepared for the trial by fire that was Mr. Wallace's 12th grade English.

Spending time and trying to motivate the troubled few is a noble endeavor. I tutor such students myself in math twice each week. However, teachers and professors only have so much time to teach the material. They may focus on the few at the risk of losing the many.

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Originally posted by K ia:
[qb]

What do you think will happen to the 300 expelled from school?

They will either choose to shape up and have their expulsion revoked (ie learn the hard way that certain behaviors will not be tolerated), attend the alternative school to learn a trade, or choose to join gangs to train in life shortening survival skills.

We as parents and members of the community must get involved to try and steer all children onto a path to a positively productive life. This falls back on the old yet true saying, 'It takes a village to raise a child' . [/qb]

[dahjah]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Originally posted by NapiHead327:
[qb]

Originally posted by B_P:
[qb]
This type of disparity is not a matter of intelligence, motivation or any other factor. It is a matter of culture. Unfortunately, there is a perception that a career in athletics, entertainment, or illicit trades is infinitely more desirable among young people in North America than careers requiring academic preparation. [/qb]

And I think this was exactly K.Dajah's point. For young Black males, there is the perception that (using your words) "a career in athletics, entertainment, or illicit trades is infinitely more desirable among young people". This especially pertains to Black urban boys b/c these ball players, rappers, and drug dealers are the majority of Black men they see who make a lot of money. Therefore, this is who they aspire to be. Maybe if they saw more Black male teachers, and saw that you could make a good living being a teacher (assuming teachers were paid accordingly), then they would aspire to be educators.

[/qb]

Tanx,
but as usual ppl feel seh mi jus seh dem tingya fe de upliftment a blk ppl by any means

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

It is really slightly off key to say that children should 'meet half way,or do their part',because according to the most basic knowledge in child psychology children is always learning. So they by tjust being themselves has achieved that milestone.

This is specious reasoning. A conscious or even unconscious mind will gather information from its environment, process it, shunt it into short term memory and perhaps use to the information for a problem-solving task. Everyone not in a deep coma learns. The real issue is what they learn and how they can use this information in their continuing development as young people. There are obvious differences in learning how to integrate over cylindrical volumes and learning how to cheat, undetected, on an exam. Only the former merits praise. Learning in an of itself is not a "milestone." It comes as naturally as breathing. The "milestone" is learning material that will prepare young people to make a positive contribution to society.

[Guest]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] What do you think will happen to the 300 expelled from school? [/qb]

They end up in prison where they become productive members of society making license plates and other useful goods, naturally.

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Originally posted by MissB:
[qb]

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] What do you think will happen to the 300 expelled from school? [/qb]

They end up in prison where they become productive members of society making license plates and other useful goods, naturally. [/qb]

Ultimately, there is no fairness or justice in life. There are only choices.

[Tropicana]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Wonderful , so you are facing the same challenges on the other side of the pond. Just what I DON'T want to hear.

So black teachers = high performing black students? Is it that simple

Role models are important but puttiing it that way is a bit too simplistic. I would say that the students need excellent teachers who don't have racial hangups and who will take a more global approach to learning instead of spitting out a Eurocentric curriculum. Dahjah is right. Schools with Black students do need to have some Black teachers but they should be excellent teachers FIRST. When the only role models in some areas are basketball players and rap artists, it shouldn't surprise us that boys take little interest in education.

I must agree w/you on this one. Educution begins at home and if learning is not stressed, then white, black, green people will not make you want to learn.

This is true but having teachers who are racist will only compound the problem. (Please don't take this to mean that all White teachers are racist. Look at Suesumba's experience.)

And I think this was exactly K.Dajah's point. For young Black males, there is the perception that (using your words) "a career in athletics, entertainment, or illicit trades is infinitely more desirable among young people". This especially pertains to Black urban boys b/c these ball players, rappers, and drug dealers are the majority of Black men they see who make a lot of money. Therefore, this is who they aspire to be. Maybe if they saw more Black male teachers, and saw that you could make a good living being a teacher (assuming teachers were paid accordingly), then they would aspire to be educators.

I'm not agreeing that Black teachers should be paid more - ALL teachers should be paid more

Agreed.

My parents STRESSED the importance of my getting good grades and going to college. Also, they suplimented my Caucasian-based public school education w/Afrocentric flashcards, books, workbooks, vidoes, museums, etc. I think the combo of both really helps a Black child become a responsible proud Black adult.

Agreed 100%.

I remember when I started school they were still using those horrible Dick and Jane readers.



The only person even close to Black was the dog Spot who had black spots.


Of course, Jane and little sister Sally HAD to be blonde and who could forget the cat Puff:



Just horrible.

The next mention of a Black person came in grade 3 or was it 4 geography with Bunga the Negrito boy

Bunga is a negrito boy...Bunga is a Pygmy.

...how embarrassing. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Read more about that here:

http://www.pch.gc.ca/special/dcforum/info-bg/07_e.cfm

Then there was the Little Black Sambo in the grade 7 French book who made tiger run around a tree until he turned to butter. The grade 7 story book did have a story about people having a feast in Jamaica but the photos were totally demeaning....all of the people had hands with Black palms and there was a suckling pig with an apple in it's mouth on the huge picnic table. The joys of a Eurocentric curriculum.

I'm quite sure Asians don't get pulled over for driving a posh cyaar

Maybe not but they do get called "slant eyes" and other names that aren't permitted on the board. In this town, Asian men do face a lot of dicrimination and rejection from White women when it comes to dating. This hurts just as much as some of the rejection we face. I didn't notice the problem as much in Paris and, based on what some boardites have shared from various parts of the US, the situation seems to be better in other areas.

[phoenix]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

Parents have a role in shaping what their children aspire to, whatever images of black people are portrayed in the media and elsewhere. Regrettably, some parents are unable to instill the desire, the confidence and the discipline that it takes for their children to get the most out of the educational system. It then falls to teachers to try to motivate, and that is often a difficult and thankless task. I understand what people are saying about a Eurocentric curriculum, but there are limits to that as an explanation of why black boys underachieve compared to other groups.

When I attended UWI, three quarters of the freshmen were female and three quarters of the people on my course were female. So what is it about black boys?

[Boricua_papi]

Re: Pay them more if they have black skin

When I attended UWI, three quarters of the freshmen were female and three quarters of the people on my course were female. So what is it about black boys?

A cousin of mine attended the University of Puerto Rico at Mayaguez for his undergraduate work. He had mentioned the same exact ratios concerning women to men in his classes. Many Latino males, like myself, have also, regrettably, foresaken or delayed the pursuit of a sound college education. Perhaps it is not a "black" male problem but, more broadly, a male problem.