Holy Matrimony

[Guest]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
Marriage is everywhere defined by law. In most of the world, including the US and Jamaica, this is civil law. 'Holiness' is an entirely religious matter; which means that it is something to be assessed privately, rather than by agencies of the state. The issue was never 'holy matrimony' it was, and is, marriage.

Agreed... [/qb]

You are not thinking!

[mountaingal]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]

they can be one and the same thing in some countries, is what i'm hearing. whether a couple decides to have someone pronounce their union "a holy estate" or have it pronunced "a civil agreement", bottom line is that it involves a commitment to each other that the couple wants to be recognized. so i see it, anyway.

i'm curious, jedi, why you didn't explicitly state "civil agreement between a man and a woman" if in fact your discussion is not about homosexual unions. unless you're trying to imply that holy estate can only apply to a heterosexual union. however, as someone has pointed out, homosexual unions have been sanctioned by some Christian institutions, so they would qualify as holy matrimony, wouldn't they?

[Guest]

Re: Holy Matrimony

i'm curious, jedi, why you didn't explicitly state "civil agreement between a man and a woman" if in fact your discussion is not about homosexual unions.



Simply because the matter of holy matrimony as spelled out in the word of God is between a man and a woman, taking it out of the hands of the churches since I know that many will argue that since churches are marrying same sex couples then the union must be sanctified. A civil union does not confer any type of sanctity.

[neutral]

Re: Holy Matrimony

the whole concept of marriage is flawed,and unnatural anyway,it goes against our basic human nature,which is to procreate,and multiply.
the whole precept is based on religious beliefs,that we should stick with one partner for life,which as we can see by the amount of divorces,is not only unworkable in the majority of cases,but impossible for some.

[Guest]

Re: Holy Matrimony

BTW. I am not going to grow gray hairs over this it is just an exercise, and I had hoped more Christians would take out their swords and look at what I am saying here, but alas! o/

[Guest]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by neutral:
[qb] the whole concept of marriage is flawed,and unnatural anyway,it goes against our basic human nature,which is to procreate,and multiply.
the whole precept is based on religious beliefs,that we should stick with one partner for life,which as we can see by the amount of divorces,is not only unworkable in the majority of cases,but impossible for some. [/qb]

Good point neutral but then your's is working so does one have any bearing on the other?

[neutral]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by Jedi l:
Good point neutral but then your's is working so does one have any bearing on the other? [/QB]

jedi ,mine works because we work on it,it needs to be nurtured,it needs constant propping up,I suppose it works because we want to be together,and not because we are married.
marriage is simply legitimising what you already have,but it does put more pressure on the relationship to make it work.

[Guest]

Re: Holy Matrimony

I suppose it works because we want to be together,and not because we are married.

Very good point.

[Fledgist]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]

You need to make yourself clearer. In most countries today -- Israel is one of the exceptions -- marriage is a matter of civil law. That is to say, a marriage possesses legal validity only when it is registered with the government, and an official certificate has been issued.

'Holy matrimony' is the outcome of a religious ceremony, which may or may not have legal validity -- that depends on whether the marriage is legally registered. In some countries, France for example, only a civil ceremony legitimates marriage -- the religious ceremony has no legal validity in and of itself. [/qb]

I don't think I need to make myself any clearer, I believe the whole hooplah from the other thread happened because folks don't seem to understand that there is a difference. Of course I doubt that you would fully understand the scope of the differences between two people who have taken an oath of betrothal before God and two people who have made a legally binding agreement between each other. Of course holy matrimony as we know it in this country also includes signing a marriage certificate. But then what I guess I should say is does a marriage certificate, constitute holy matrimony? [/qb]

Marriage is everywhere defined by law. In most of the world, including the US and Jamaica, this is civil law. 'Holiness' is an entirely religious matter; which means that it is something to be assessed privately, rather than by agencies of the state. The issue was never 'holy matrimony' it was, and is, marriage.

It should be noted that there are Christian churches which perform ceremonies of 'holy union' for homosexual couples, invoking divine blessings on the couple. [/qb]

And again my question is " is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it?


And if you are saying that they are one and the same then from whence cometh the question of the the sanctity of the marriage vows?

And please let us leave homosexual marriages out of this since
a. clearly the first part of my question says "holy matrimony between a man and a woman" not gays.

b. civil agreeements includes all individuals not just gays. [/qb]

I've answered your point as completely as possible. You keep missing it. Marriage is a matter of law, 'holy matrimony' is a matter of particular religious belief. The concept of 'civil agreement' is vague to the point of meaninglessness, since it could cover private contracts (which are governed by civil law) as well as public acts.

[Fledgist]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] BTW. I am not going to grow gray hairs over this it is just an exercise, and I had hoped more Christians would take out their swords and look at what I am saying here, but alas! o/ [/qb]

People see with swords?

[Fledgist]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
Marriage is everywhere defined by law. In most of the world, including the US and Jamaica, this is civil law. 'Holiness' is an entirely religious matter; which means that it is something to be assessed privately, rather than by agencies of the state. The issue was never 'holy matrimony' it was, and is, marriage.

Agreed... [/qb]

You are not thinking! [/qb]

See how these Christians love each other.

[Diplomat]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
Marriage is everywhere defined by law. In most of the world, including the US and Jamaica, this is civil law. 'Holiness' is an entirely religious matter; which means that it is something to be assessed privately, rather than by agencies of the state. The issue was never 'holy matrimony' it was, and is, marriage.

Agreed... [/qb]

You are not thinking! [/qb]

See how these Christians love each other. [/qb]

She wasn't thinking...

[Guest]

Re: Holy Matrimony

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
I've answered your point as completely as possible. You keep missing it. Marriage is a matter of law, 'holy matrimony' is a matter of particular religious belief. The concept of 'civil agreement' is vague to the point of meaninglessness, since it could cover private contracts (which are governed by civil law) as well as public acts. [/qb]

Is this your final answer? and are we to take that as a no there is no comparison between the two?

[Guest]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
. [/qb]

She wasn't thinking... [/QB]

Come on CEW your mind has been on suspend lately, you just don't want to be bothered admit it!

[neutral]

Re: Holy Matrimony

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] BTW. I am not going to grow gray hairs over this it is just an exercise, and I had hoped more Christians would take out their swords and look at what I am saying here, but alas! o/ [/qb]

come on christians,cant you see that one of your sister is buckling from the heathen unslaught,...take out that sword and charge into battle to her aid,dont let the sister fight alone [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]