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is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it?
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Re: Holy Matrimony
Holiness stuff is always conferred, or 99.9% conferred by a man, who says he's working for a god. And the "civil agreement between two individuals," requires the same papers (from the STATE), but a judge or court official can "solemnize" the agreement.Originally posted by Jedi l:
is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it?
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Re: Holy Matrimony
so jedi you a try fe say you go marry a man and him will never signed the paper cause it will be between you and god? so how will you get divorced?Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
You need to make yourself clearer. In most countries today -- Israel is one of the exceptions -- marriage is a matter of civil law. That is to say, a marriage possesses legal validity only when it is registered with the government, and an official certificate has been issued.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]
'Holy matrimony' is the outcome of a religious ceremony, which may or may not have legal validity -- that depends on whether the marriage is legally registered. In some countries, France for example, only a civil ceremony legitimates marriage -- the religious ceremony has no legal validity in and of itself.Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
jedi,you obviously think there are no comparison in the way you worded your question.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]
I am curious to know why you see one as "an holy estate of matrimony"
and the other as merely " civil agreement between two individuals".
arent they both based on the same principles of monogamy....?
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Re: Holy Matrimony
I don't think I need to make myself any clearer, I believe the whole hooplah from the other thread happened because folks don't seem to understand that there is a difference. Of course I doubt that you would fully understand the scope of the differences between two people who have taken an oath of betrothal before God and two people who have made a legally binding agreement between each other. Of course holy matrimony as we know it in this country also includes signing a marriage certificate. But then what I guess I should say is does a marriage certificate, constitute holy matrimony?Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]You need to make yourself clearer. In most countries today -- Israel is one of the exceptions -- marriage is a matter of civil law. That is to say, a marriage possesses legal validity only when it is registered with the government, and an official certificate has been issued.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]
'Holy matrimony' is the outcome of a religious ceremony, which may or may not have legal validity -- that depends on whether the marriage is legally registered. In some countries, France for example, only a civil ceremony legitimates marriage -- the religious ceremony has no legal validity in and of itself. [/qb]Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
The holy estate of matrimony is conferred by God. A civil agreement is conferred by the law. Obviously you would not see any difference since you donot believe in God.Originally posted by neutral:
[qb]jedi,you obviously think there are no comparison in the way you worded your question.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]
I am curious to know why you see one as "an holy estate of matrimony"
and the other as merely " civil agreement between two individuals".
arent they both based on the same principles of monogamy....? [/qb]
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Re: Holy Matrimony
Is there any comparison is the question?Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:
[qb]Holiness stuff is always conferred, or 99.9% conferred by a man, who says he's working for a god. And the "civil agreement between two individuals," requires the same papers (from the STATE), but a judge or court official can "solemnize" the agreement.Originally posted by Jedi l:
is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it?
_ [/qb]Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
Not in the U.S. In the States you need the papers from the state gvernment first. Then someone solomizes the deal. It doesn't matter who says, "you may now kiss the bride," you will be equally married.Originally posted by Jedi l:
Is there any comparison is the question?
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Re: Holy Matrimony
Marriage is everywhere defined by law. In most of the world, including the US and Jamaica, this is civil law. 'Holiness' is an entirely religious matter; which means that it is something to be assessed privately, rather than by agencies of the state. The issue was never 'holy matrimony' it was, and is, marriage.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]I don't think I need to make myself any clearer, I believe the whole hooplah from the other thread happened because folks don't seem to understand that there is a difference. Of course I doubt that you would fully understand the scope of the differences between two people who have taken an oath of betrothal before God and two people who have made a legally binding agreement between each other. Of course holy matrimony as we know it in this country also includes signing a marriage certificate. But then what I guess I should say is does a marriage certificate, constitute holy matrimony? [/qb]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]You need to make yourself clearer. In most countries today -- Israel is one of the exceptions -- marriage is a matter of civil law. That is to say, a marriage possesses legal validity only when it is registered with the government, and an official certificate has been issued.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]
'Holy matrimony' is the outcome of a religious ceremony, which may or may not have legal validity -- that depends on whether the marriage is legally registered. In some countries, France for example, only a civil ceremony legitimates marriage -- the religious ceremony has no legal validity in and of itself. [/qb]
It should be noted that there are Christian churches which perform ceremonies of 'holy union' for homosexual couples, invoking divine blessings on the couple.Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
In the grand tradition of Pandora.Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
[img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]Originally posted by servant:
[qb] In the grand tradition of Pandora. [/qb]Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
Agreed...Originally posted by Fledgist:
Marriage is everywhere defined by law. In most of the world, including the US and Jamaica, this is civil law. 'Holiness' is an entirely religious matter; which means that it is something to be assessed privately, rather than by agencies of the state. The issue was never 'holy matrimony' it was, and is, marriage.aka ChurchDude. I want that moniker back! Until then....
"Sometimes you have to let go to see if there was anything worth holding on to" ~ AnonComment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
I'm pretty sure churches are free to marry whomever they like, or turn down whoever they like....they are not bound by any civil laws about marriage or unions.
When I was married it was in a church...but I had to go to city hall after that to get my marriage certificate or the state would not have recognized my marriage.Comment
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Re: Holy Matrimony
And again my question is " is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it?Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]Marriage is everywhere defined by law. In most of the world, including the US and Jamaica, this is civil law. 'Holiness' is an entirely religious matter; which means that it is something to be assessed privately, rather than by agencies of the state. The issue was never 'holy matrimony' it was, and is, marriage.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]I don't think I need to make myself any clearer, I believe the whole hooplah from the other thread happened because folks don't seem to understand that there is a difference. Of course I doubt that you would fully understand the scope of the differences between two people who have taken an oath of betrothal before God and two people who have made a legally binding agreement between each other. Of course holy matrimony as we know it in this country also includes signing a marriage certificate. But then what I guess I should say is does a marriage certificate, constitute holy matrimony? [/qb]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]You need to make yourself clearer. In most countries today -- Israel is one of the exceptions -- marriage is a matter of civil law. That is to say, a marriage possesses legal validity only when it is registered with the government, and an official certificate has been issued.Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] is there any comparison between the holy estate of matrimony between a man and a woman and the civil agreement between two individuals, and if so what is it? [/qb]
'Holy matrimony' is the outcome of a religious ceremony, which may or may not have legal validity -- that depends on whether the marriage is legally registered. In some countries, France for example, only a civil ceremony legitimates marriage -- the religious ceremony has no legal validity in and of itself. [/qb]
It should be noted that there are Christian churches which perform ceremonies of 'holy union' for homosexual couples, invoking divine blessings on the couple. [/qb]
And if you are saying that they are one and the same then from whence cometh the question of the the sanctity of the marriage vows?
And please let us leave homosexual marriages out of this since
a. clearly the first part of my question says "holy matrimony between a man and a woman" not gays.
b. civil agreeements includes all individuals not just gays.Comment
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