A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[rebelgirl]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Oh the conviction of sin comes from a bunch of people that believe in a crazy book written by some weird guys a couple of thousand years ago.

[img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Good to see you Tuff Gong, its baseball season again.
Sure you want a long list of cut and post links??? [/qb]

Very nice post above (((Accepted))), but please don't turn this thread into a baseball chat okay, please start another thread ova suh------> [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
(though I must concede that I am a baseball fan)

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by rebel:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] 1. Can now stop torturing myself with whether I sinned or not or whether this and that is sin or am I in right now or out.


The above statement taken from "Mutty" the thread has had me thinking for about a week now.
And I have to pose these questions -

Does a lack of belief in Christ or Christianity automatically means that you are no longer guilty of sin?

Where does the conviction of sin come from? [/qb]

the only people that would consider me guilty of sin are in fact believers, saying as how no god exist to me I have no belief in sin. sin is a abstract concept attached to a imaginary being with imaginary laws. I do not use the term sin to describe those who have transgressed against the moral consensus of humanity.

in short IMO no a non believer is not guilty of sin to himself or other non believers. only to those that judge him based on their beliefs which have no bearing on his or her lifestyle or guilt. [/qb]

So the word 'sin' seems to be the problem here then. Since the word crime does not apply to all forms of transgressions, what would you consider to be a better word? Give an example of how you would see infidelity for instance.

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable? [/qb]

What, pray tell, is the difference between anger and wrath?

Jedi: Obviously both speak of displeasure, but anger does not necessarily denote wrath as wrath is a higher degree of anger more akin to rage. Anger leads to wrath so that if a person would avoid being angry (or at least take control of it) he/she is less likely to become enraged or wrathful .

Morality is founded on reason. My reason tells me that certain behaviours are not acceptable if I wish to live in a human community.

Jedi: and pray tell from whence comes your reason?

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable? [/qb]

What, pray tell, is the difference between anger and wrath?

[MG2S: Ok Professor. I got this one.
Anger is described as a strong feeling of displeasure. Of fury and indignation and rage. It is synonymous to wrath.

{Fledgist: And what does 'synonymous' mean?}


Wrath is described as violent rage. Retributory punishment for an offense or a crime.
In other words; a person can make you angry to the point that you feel strong anger (hateful emotions) against them. When it turns to wrath, there is a strong desire to physically punish that person in a manner that words can never do.]


{Fledgist: The list still contained 'anger' and 'anger' apparently as two different phenomena, that's all.}


Morality is founded on reason. My reason tells me that certain behaviours are not acceptable if I wish to live in a human community. I will therefore avoid them, and expect others to. This has nothing to do with the existence of itinerant preachers in Palestine two thousand years ago.

[MG2S: Pure rubbish!!!]

[/qb]

[/qb]

Why is it 'pure rubbish'? I'd love an explanation.

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] I have purposely stayed away from these morality forums because they presuppose a morality without God. I have found no association of humans who do not presuppose a spirit being from who they set up their "moral" structure.
I posit there is no such thing as a "Godless" morality, even that conjured up by philosophers is heavily borrowed from "religion".

{Fledgist: I posit that you're wrong. There are a number of moral systems that have been worked out without the presupposition of a god (Buddhist, Confucian, Aristotelian, Kantian, and consequentialist ethics do not require, and are not posited on, the existence of a god.)}


The christian faith presupposes this God given morality even before there was a law given.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

But it does not hold this true of christians only, this is true of all creation.


{Fledgist: This is just an ad verecundiam.}

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

All men are held responsible for sin, it is as though the truth of God is hard-wired into our conciousness, so we must deny this truth even to be an unbeliever.

{Fledgist: There is no god, I believe this statement to be true. I deny nothing.}

In other words the natural state of man is not unbelief first then conversion.

Rather it's denial of belief then unbelief.

We must unlearn a belief in God like a child's natural instinct to trust is unlearned when they are nurtured into lies and mistrust.
Jesus said unless we become as a little child we cannot see the kingdom of heaven.
So likewise we are nurtured by our flesh into disobedience and must relearn trust to submit our lives to God, we must be "born again" into trustfullness to negate the easy walk of unbelief.

An unbeliever sees no sin in their ways,

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts. [/qb]

You think not believing is easy?

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable? [/qb]

What, pray tell, is the difference between anger and wrath?

Jedi: Obviously both speak of displeasure, but anger does not necessarily denote wrath as wrath is a higher degree of anger more akin to rage. Anger leads to wrath so that if a person would avoid being angry (or at least take control of it) he/she is less likely to become enraged or wrathful .


{Fledgist: 'Wrath' and 'anger' are synonyms. For example, consider these lines by William Blake:

I was angry with my friend,
I told my wrath, my wrath did end;
I was angry with my foe,
I hid my wrath, my wrath did grow.}

Morality is founded on reason. My reason tells me that certain behaviours are not acceptable if I wish to live in a human community.

Jedi: and pray tell from whence comes your reason?

[/qb]

It comes from me. BTW, 'whence' means 'from where'.

[msgoody2shoes]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable? [/qb]

What, pray tell, is the difference between anger and wrath?

[MG2S: Ok Professor. I got this one.
Anger is described as a strong feeling of displeasure. Of fury and indignation and rage. It is synonymous to wrath.

{Fledgist: And what does 'synonymous' mean?}

[MG2S: Obviously you know. You used the word with your poetic example of anger and wrath. Let's not waste time with rhetorical questions.]


Wrath is described as violent rage. Retributory punishment for an offense or a crime.
In other words; a person can make you angry to the point that you feel strong anger (hateful emotions) against them. When it turns to wrath, there is a strong desire to physically punish that person in a manner that words can never do.]


{Fledgist: The list still contained 'anger' and 'anger' apparently as two different phenomena, that's all.}


Morality is founded on reason. My reason tells me that certain behaviours are not acceptable if I wish to live in a human community. I will therefore avoid them, and expect others to. This has nothing to do with the existence of itinerant preachers in Palestine two thousand years ago.

[MG2S: Pure rubbish!!!]

[/qb]

[/qb]

Why is it 'pure rubbish'? I'd love an explanation.

[MG2S: In other words, pure garbage, baloney, nonsense, foolishness. Got it? Good!]

[/qb]

[rebelgirl]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] So the word 'sin' seems to be the problem here then. Since the word crime does not apply to all forms of transgressions, what would you consider to be a better word? Give an example of how you would see infidelity for instance. [/qb]

Infidelity is not necessarily morally wrong in my opinion. The spouse of the infidel may view it differently but that is one individual . On a societal level it is simply a tiny drama in the private lives of individuals. minor transgressions between couples and so forth I don't label with a moral judgment. It's simply not my business nor is it a place for my judgments. There is crime with victims present and then there is life. If there is not a victim that has suffered great harm as the result of another's actions than it is not necessary for me to have a word or opinion on it. Theft murder rape molestation violence inflicted on another human. these things are crimes that I feel are worthy of labels and judgments.

However things like suicide infidelity lying (and I'm not talking about lying that leads to fraud or creates a victim) greed, sloth etc. I don't consider most of them transgressions that require a judgment (or special word) from the rest of us. that is the individuals burden to bear on how they feel about doing such things.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

I am still waiting for the Christians to provide definitive proof that God and the Bible invented morality, that all the world is born in sin and that anyone else who is not a party to this religion need trouble themselves with this business of sin and the Christians version of morality.

What was the definition of sin again?

WitchyOoman
Member # 10541 posted April 14, 2004 08:05 PM
[qb]Actually, sin - by definition - entails believing in God and His (or Her, if you like) choice of how He/She wishes you to live. In other words, sin is - by definition - the transgression(s) of whatever code you think God to will upon us all.


Some definitions of the word "sin" (taken from various sources at hand here in my office):

estrangement from god

an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will

commit a sin; violate a law of God or a moral law

commit a faux pas or a fault or make a serious mistake, usually in light of religious beliefs or a code of ethics


Seen? It generally involves religious beliefs.[/qb]

Jedi l
Member # 12576 posted April 17, 2004 03:45 PM
[qb]Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable?[/qb]

When God destroyed the Egyptian First born was that out of anger, malice against them, jealousy, gluttony, greed or lust?

What about Sodom and Gomorrah?
What about Jesus tipping over the gambling tables in the Synagogue?
As a Christian under what conditions and by whom is jealously, anger, malice, gluttony, greed and lust acceptable?

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable? [/qb]

What, pray tell, is the difference between anger and wrath?

[MG2S: Ok Professor. I got this one.
Anger is described as a strong feeling of displeasure. Of fury and indignation and rage. It is synonymous to wrath.

{Fledgist: And what does 'synonymous' mean?}

[MG2S: Obviously you know. You used the word with your poetic example of anger and wrath. Let's not waste time with rhetorical questions.]


Wrath is described as violent rage. Retributory punishment for an offense or a crime.
In other words; a person can make you angry to the point that you feel strong anger (hateful emotions) against them. When it turns to wrath, there is a strong desire to physically punish that person in a manner that words can never do.]


{Fledgist: The list still contained 'anger' and 'anger' apparently as two different phenomena, that's all.}


Morality is founded on reason. My reason tells me that certain behaviours are not acceptable if I wish to live in a human community. I will therefore avoid them, and expect others to. This has nothing to do with the existence of itinerant preachers in Palestine two thousand years ago.

[MG2S: Pure rubbish!!!]

[/qb]

[/qb]

Why is it 'pure rubbish'? I'd love an explanation.

[MG2S: In other words, pure garbage, baloney, nonsense, foolishness. Got it? Good!]

[/qb]

[/qb]

In other words, you've made an assertion that you can't explain any further.

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable? [/qb]

What, pray tell, is the difference between anger and wrath?

Jedi: Obviously both speak of displeasure, but anger does not necessarily denote wrath as wrath is a higher degree of anger more akin to rage. Anger leads to wrath so that if a person would avoid being angry (or at least take control of it) he/she is less likely to become enraged or wrathful .


{Fledgist: 'Wrath' and 'anger' are synonyms. For example, consider these lines by William Blake:

I was angry with my friend,
I told my wrath, my wrath did end;
I was angry with my foe,
I hid my wrath, my wrath did grow.}

Morality is founded on reason. My reason tells me that certain behaviours are not acceptable if I wish to live in a human community.

Jedi: and pray tell from whence comes your reason?

[/qb]

It comes from me. BTW, 'whence' means 'from where'. [/qb]

So?

And which part of you is ME....or did you mean your conscience?

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by rebel:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] So the word 'sin' seems to be the problem here then. Since the word crime does not apply to all forms of transgressions, what would you consider to be a better word? Give an example of how you would see infidelity for instance. [/qb]

Infidelity is not necessarily morally wrong in my opinion. The spouse of the infidel may view it differently but that is one individual. On a societal level it is simply a tiny drama in the private lives of individuals. minor transgressions between couples and so forth I don't label with a moral judgment.

{Jedi: Really! so you see no harm to a society as a result of cheating spouses let alone to whole families and individuals? Is this what I should understand?

It's simply not my business nor is it a place for my judgments. There is crime with victims present and then there is life. If there is not a victim that has suffered great harm as the result of another's actions than it is not necessary for me to have a word or opinion on it.

So if it doesn't affect you personally then it really isn't a problem. Hmm! do you pay taxes where you live?

Theft murder rape molestation violence inflicted on another human. these things are crimes that I feel are worthy of labels and judgments.

For after all no one is robbed of anything when one spouse cheats on another...is that correct?

However things like suicide infidelity lying (and I'm not talking about lying that leads to fraud or creates a victim) greed, sloth etc. I don't consider most of them transgressions that require a judgment (or special word) from the rest of us. that is the individuals burden to bear on how they feel about doing such things.

[/qb]

Have you given this careful thought or are you just speaking off the top of your head?

[rebelgirl]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] {Jedi: Really! so you see no harm to a society as a result of cheating spouses let alone to whole families and individuals? Is this what I should understand?[/qb]

Some cultures infidelity is part of their society, who am I to judge that it is wrong. It is the responsibility of the individuals involved in the relationship to deal with their monogamy and infidelity issues, not my place to come in and say hey you are sinners and immoral for doing such things.

So if it doesn't affect you personally then it really isn't a problem. Hmm! do you pay taxes where you live?

Red herring, that has nothing to do with what I said

For after all no one is robbed of anything when one spouse cheats on another...is that correct?

That depends on the individuals involved and what their cultural views are etc.... not my call.

Have you given this careful thought or are you just speaking off the top of your head?

Oh I especially love your last comment [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

You and I are very different Jedi including our views on societal morality. and this thing which you call sin.

I don't feel it necessary to pass judgment on people for things which are their own decisions and not detrimental to the rest of humanity.

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by rebel:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] {Jedi: Really! so you see no harm to a society as a result of cheating spouses let alone to whole families and individuals? Is this what I should understand?[/qb]

Some cultures infidelity is part of their society, who am I to judge that it is wrong. It is the responsibility of the individuals involved in the relationship to deal with their monogamy and infidelity issues, not my place to come in and say hey you are sinners and immoral for doing such things.

So if it doesn't affect you personally then it really isn't a problem. Hmm! do you pay taxes where you live?

Red herring, that has nothing to do with what I said

For after all no one is robbed of anything when one spouse cheats on another...is that correct?

That depends on the individuals involved and what their cultural views are etc.... not my call.

Have you given this careful thought or are you just speaking off the top of your head?

Oh I especially love your last comment [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img]

You and I are very different Jedi including our views on societal morality. and this thing which you call sin.

I don't feel it necessary to pass judgment on people for things which are their own decisions and not detrimental to the rest of humanity. [/qb]

I find your responses to be very shallow rebel and not well thought out at all. Did it ever occur to you to look further than you own personal space to see how many lives can be affected by even the seemingly simplest misdemeanor. Yet it is amazing that you yourself are often so ired at human greed and depravity, still you somehow cannot make the connection between acts and outcomes. If even one person is affected by the negative behavior of another it is an act against all humanity. Think about it.