A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Awright mek me put dis in plain langwige-

In the absence of belief in Jesus Christ, or let say Jesus never even lived would jealousy, anger, wrath, malice, gluttony, greed, lust be acceptable? [/qb]

What, pray tell, is the difference between anger and wrath?

Jedi: Obviously both speak of displeasure, but anger does not necessarily denote wrath as wrath is a higher degree of anger more akin to rage. Anger leads to wrath so that if a person would avoid being angry (or at least take control of it) he/she is less likely to become enraged or wrathful .


{Fledgist: 'Wrath' and 'anger' are synonyms. For example, consider these lines by William Blake:

I was angry with my friend,
I told my wrath, my wrath did end;
I was angry with my foe,
I hid my wrath, my wrath did grow.}

Morality is founded on reason. My reason tells me that certain behaviours are not acceptable if I wish to live in a human community.

Jedi: and pray tell from whence comes your reason?

[/qb]

It comes from me. BTW, 'whence' means 'from where'. [/qb]

So?


And which part of you is ME....or did you mean your conscience? [/qb]

My self, that part of me which is aware of the world and capable of judging. [/qb]

Your conscience [/qb]

My conscience is neither my consciousness nor my capacity for judgment. Those are basic constituents of my self.

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
[qb]

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]

Accepted, you mentioned my name and I will ask one simple question. Could God have handled it a better way? [/qb]

Like CEW said to our understanding, we cannot know because we don't know all the pieces in play.

Question?
Jesus death for our sins, could God have handled it another way???

I once heard this story.....

In a Siberian village there ruled a King who was the strongest and biggest man in his tribe.

His rule was kind but the punishment of any crime was swift and harsh.

It so happened that his clan complained to him of a theif in their midst, daily they set traps for the theif but the theif always was found to be one step ahead of the traps.

Eventually the theif was traced to the King's own household, his mother.

Justice demanded punishment and the tribesmen gathered to see whether the King's justice would be harsh and swift.

His mother was bought before the tribe to be beaten a beating that would surely cause her death.

The King gave the order but before the whip could descend he bounded to his mother and bared his back for the strokes. He took the full punishment of his law and bore the brunt of his justice.

Could it have been done any other way, God said No and I believe him "twice" because like this King he did not excuse himself from his law or his Justice. [/qb]

Hello Accepted. This was beautiful! Reminds me of the discussion I had with my Bible study teacher today about threads in this forum. As he said, it is not for us to question the way God chooses to operate, it is for us to believe it. This is hard to do for an unbeliever or a person who has become disenchanted with Christianity. The ways of the Lord are past finding out. Hence the saying, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it".It is really not given to us as believers to answer for what God chooses to do and why/how. After all, God created us. We answer to Him, He does not answer to us. [/qb]

No my dear. I have ALWAYS questioned and will ALWAYS question. I do not care who it is. These are not questions about quantum physics. These are about atrocious acts that our very God-given consciences are supposed to revolt against so I want to know WHY or WHAT was the sense in going about slaughtering people and other stupid commands made by the Hebrew god?

Faith is a cop out not to think and/or question. As Christians, you are taught to question other people's religion, apply reason and discernment and reject or accept accordingly. How many Christians are willing to believe Gabriel came down and fill Muhammad's mouth with words or Mithra was born of a virgin in a cave? These things are rejected based on questioning and reason and even biases. Why should you stop short of questioning God and the Bible when you question everything else? Sorry, this man don't work that way. I'm not asking God to tell me how he makes a rose blossom. I'm asking simple, reasonable questions.

It has always fascinated me that Christians will come up with the most creative answers like one guy telling me that Noah's ark had a large indoor pool when I asked how was it possible for animals that needed water to survive (alligators, corcodiles, amphibians, hippos, etc) survived on the ark. Where he came up with this one I have NO clue. However, when a Christian does not know the "mind of god" on a subject or is confronted with an embarrasing or uncomfortable passage the old "His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts" line is thrown out as the end all. I don't go for that!

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by WitchyOoman:
[/qb]

Accepted, you mentioned my name and I will ask one simple question. Could God have handled it a better way? [/qb]

Hmmm! this is provocative, Mutty thinks that God may have made a mistake!
Say mutsy...you seem to think He could have handled things differently can you elaborate on that. [/qb]

Er...how about working some other fantastic mircale or working negotiations or leaving the darn people alone in their land? That's a start.

Now if you were God and you delivered an alleged 3 million people from captivity, what would you do in respect to finding a place to settle them:

1. Let them take over the land of their oppresors (the Egyptians) and all of that marvelous glory?

2. Bring them to some uninhabitable land like say the area that is now the United States?

3. Send down a nice plague to wipe out the Canaanites before bringing your people in?

4. Have your people come in and butcher the entire population without impunity and take over their land?

Applying your sense of conscience and considering you have ALL POWER, which would you have chosen to do?

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb]

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by WitchyOoman:
[/qb]

Accepted, you mentioned my name and I will ask one simple question. Could God have handled it a better way? [/qb]

Hmmm! this is provocative, Mutty thinks that God may have made a mistake!
Say mutsy...you seem to think He could have handled things differently can you elaborate on that. [/qb]

Er...how about working some other fantastic mircale or working negotiations or leaving the darn people alone in their land? That's a start.

Now if you were God and you delivered an alleged 3 million people from captivity, what would you do in respect to finding a place to settle them:

1. Let them take over the land of their oppresors (the Egyptians) and all of that marvelous glory?

{Jedi: But that was not the Promised Land!}

2. Bring them to some uninhabitable land like say the area that is now the United States?

{Jedi: That was in the plans, they are here now, or should I say we are here now [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] }

3. Send down a nice plague to wipe out the Canaanites before bringing your people in?

{Jedi: Naw...Jesus was still in the making and they figured into the long term goals for mankind's future salvation.}

4. Have your people come in and butcher the entire population without impunity and take over their land?

{Jedi: Actually it went more like this..."Lead the people into the land knowing that they were less than capable of defeating their foes... and then go before them and slay their opponents this way the world would know that they were God's chosen people and He was the one and only Almighty God."}

Applying your sense of conscience and considering you have ALL POWER, which would you have chosen to do? [/qb]

All of he above. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[msgoody2shoes]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]

Originally posted by msgoody2shoes:
[qb]

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]

Accepted, you mentioned my name and I will ask one simple question. Could God have handled it a better way? [/qb]

Like CEW said to our understanding, we cannot know because we don't know all the pieces in play.

Question?
Jesus death for our sins, could God have handled it another way???

I once heard this story.....

In a Siberian village there ruled a King who was the strongest and biggest man in his tribe.

His rule was kind but the punishment of any crime was swift and harsh.

It so happened that his clan complained to him of a theif in their midst, daily they set traps for the theif but the theif always was found to be one step ahead of the traps.

Eventually the theif was traced to the King's own household, his mother.

Justice demanded punishment and the tribesmen gathered to see whether the King's justice would be harsh and swift.

His mother was bought before the tribe to be beaten a beating that would surely cause her death.

The King gave the order but before the whip could descend he bounded to his mother and bared his back for the strokes. He took the full punishment of his law and bore the brunt of his justice.

Could it have been done any other way, God said No and I believe him "twice" because like this King he did not excuse himself from his law or his Justice. [/qb]

Hello Accepted. This was beautiful! Reminds me of the discussion I had with my Bible study teacher today about threads in this forum. As he said, it is not for us to question the way God chooses to operate, it is for us to believe it. This is hard to do for an unbeliever or a person who has become disenchanted with Christianity. The ways of the Lord are past finding out. Hence the saying, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it".It is really not given to us as believers to answer for what God chooses to do and why/how. After all, God created us. We answer to Him, He does not answer to us. [/qb]

No my dear. I have ALWAYS questioned and will ALWAYS question. I do not care who it is. These are not questions about quantum physics. These are about atrocious acts that our very God-given consciences are supposed to revolt against so I want to know WHY or WHAT was the sense in going about slaughtering people and other stupid commands made by the Hebrew god?

Faith is a cop out not to think and/or question. As Christians, you are taught to question other people's religion, apply reason and discernment and reject or accept accordingly. How many Christians are willing to believe Gabriel came down and fill Muhammad's mouth with words or Mithra was born of a virgin in a cave? These things are rejected based on questioning and reason and even biases. Why should you stop short of questioning God and the Bible when you question everything else? Sorry, this man don't work that way. I'm not asking God to tell me how he makes a rose blossom. I'm asking simple, reasonable questions.

It has always fascinated me that Christians will come up with the most creative answers like one guy telling me that Noah's ark had a large indoor pool when I asked how was it possible for animals that needed water to survive (alligators, corcodiles, amphibians, hippos, etc) survived on the ark. Where he came up with this one I have NO clue. However, when a Christian does not know the "mind of god" on a subject or is confronted with an embarrasing or uncomfortable passage the old "His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts" line is thrown out as the end all. I don't go for that! [/qb]

Fair enough, Love. Have a good day!
MG2S

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Jedi you can always borrow some of my medication.

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Jedi I find this interesting:


{Jedi: Actually it went more like this..."Lead the people into the land knowing that they were less than capable of defeating their foes... and then go before them and slay their opponents this way the world would know that they were God's chosen people and He was the one and only Almighty God."}

So you really feel that there was no other way, huh?

Now as far as I can tell, Israel was the aggresor. The only foe they had were the ones they themselves created - the Canaanites. The Canaanites did not dclare war on them, bother them oe entice them to war. It was Israel who first scandalized them (the propoganda), then tried under Moses to not force the people out of the land, but to actually exterminate them off the face of the earth because God said so. Granted, there may have been truth to the matter that they were some vile people (if the bible is to be believed and is not just a propaganda tool), but they were not bothering Israel with it and with thinking like that, it sets a bad precedent that if you or I find something revolting, we can, with God's approval, eliminate it like say an abortion clinic with a nice home made bomb. After all, the Egyptians were not choirboys either.

[Diplomat]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
Faith is a cop out not to think and/or question. As Christians, you are taught to question other people's religion, apply reason and discernment and reject or accept accordingly. How many Christians are willing to believe Gabriel came down and fill Muhammad's mouth with words or Mithra was born of a virgin in a cave? These things are rejected based on questioning and reason and even biases. Why should you stop short of questioning God and the Bible when you question everything else? Sorry, this man don't work that way. I'm not asking God to tell me how he makes a rose blossom. I'm asking simple, reasonable questions.

It has always fascinated me that Christians will come up with the most creative answers like one guy telling me that Noah's ark had a large indoor pool when I asked how was it possible for animals that needed water to survive (alligators, corcodiles, amphibians, hippos, etc) survived on the ark. Where he came up with this one I have NO clue. However, when a Christian does not know the "mind of god" on a subject or is confronted with an embarrasing or uncomfortable passage the old "His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts" line is thrown out as the end all. I don't go for that!

And in all honesty, you won't. You have dismissed the essence of the Christianity - faith in God and in the finished work of Christ - and having done so, what else is there? I'm afraid you are presenting situations asking for Christians to refute your statements. That is rather disingenuous. What I think you are missing is the recognition that the strength with which you hold your convictions, based on any number of sources you have read, is no different than the strength with which Christians - and people of other faiths - embrace what they believe. As I mentioned in another thread, we all look at the same things and come away with different conclusions. No one has all the answers, and that is where we can either choose to exercise faith and accept the things we do not understand/know, or we can continue to spend the rest of our lives searching for tangible answers.

Incidentally, your statement that "Faith is a cop out to not think and/or question" is erroneous. The Bible is filled with servants of God who questioned/challenged Him on any number of issues. In the New Testament, you need look no further than at Peter, the ruffneck disciple.

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
Faith is a cop out not to think and/or question. As Christians, you are taught to question other people's religion, apply reason and discernment and reject or accept accordingly. How many Christians are willing to believe Gabriel came down and fill Muhammad's mouth with words or Mithra was born of a virgin in a cave? These things are rejected based on questioning and reason and even biases. Why should you stop short of questioning God and the Bible when you question everything else? Sorry, this man don't work that way. I'm not asking God to tell me how he makes a rose blossom. I'm asking simple, reasonable questions.
It has always fascinated me that Christians will come up with the most creative answers like one guy telling me that Noah's ark had a large indoor pool when I asked how was it possible for animals that needed water to survive (alligators, corcodiles, amphibians, hippos, etc) survived on the ark. Where he came up with this one I have NO clue. However, when a Christian does not know the "mind of god" on a subject or is confronted with an embarrasing or uncomfortable passage the old "His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts" line is thrown out as the end all. I don't go for that!

And in all honesty, you won't. You have dismissed the essence of the Christianity - faith in God and in the finished work of Christ - and having done so, what else is there? I'm afraid you are presenting situations asking for Christians to refute your statements. That is rather disingenuous. What I think you are missing is the recognition that the strength with which you hold your convictions, based on any number of sources you have read, is no different than the strength with which Christians - and people of other faiths - embrace what they believe. As I mentioned in another thread, we all look at the same things and come away with different conclusions. No one has all the answers, and that is where we can either choose to exercise faith and accept the things we do not understand/know, or we can continue to spend the rest of our lives searching for tangible answers.
Incidentally, your statement that "Faith is a cop out to not think and/or question" is erroneous. The Bible is filled with servants of God who questioned/challenged Him on any number of issues. In the New Testament, you need look no further than at Peter, the ruffneck disciple. [/qb]

Thank you CEW. It is interesting that you bring those last few sentences up because you jogged something in my mind I remember I used to tell people. Whenever someone came to me and said, "you'er not supposed to question God because not all things you can understand and his wasya are higher than your ways and blah blah blah" I would ask, "well were the bible saints any better than I that they could ask questions and I could not? Paul questions and so did Jeremiah and others. So I will continue to ask.

As for me posting things for people to refute, that may be a point, but it's also to bring awareness and challenge minds. If my experience was worth anything, I know the common response will be for some to affirm how strong they are in their faith because after all in their minds, I am one sent from the devil to try to deter people from the faith, but I feel within myself I am doing someone a service by causing them to at least think outside the box or I am voicing what others are afraid to say or think for fear they will be met with resistance and scorn which matters not to me.

It's thoughts that I put out here that brings the Biggahviews and Jambrits out to also voice their opinions and/or objections when under other circumstances you may have never seen them here. It has even brought back MsGoody and has other Christians scurrying around to search their scriptures.

While it may be annoying to some and frustrating to others, it takes naysayers like me to make this forum of any interest I think. Jedi would not have anything to do ( [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] ) and some Christian peeping in would have never known their "god of love" was actually not so loving in his early days.

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

CEW you are right about that "faith" thing though. You made a very good point that some people choose to accept some things by faith whereby other people will question it and without answer ignore or disbelieve. Kinda like my mother and wrestling back in the day. This woman was convinced with all her heart that it was real straight across the board. I even showed her Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair (mortal enemies during their act) hanging out at a Chicago Bulls game years ago, next to each other laughing and even doing joint interviews with the TBS press. They were in town for a monumental battle where the loser would be banned from the sport. Despite proof to the contrary, my lady resisted the idea that it was all just an act. LOL!!!
It just came natural to smile or laugh when we would see her hooting and hollaring in the living room ("lick im! Nack im dung! He too wicked!") and we (my brothers and I) would even ask her questions about some of the ridiculous bad acting (guy flies over the top rope and is out cold, but miraculously recovers to throw enough blows and even win the match). She used to get mad at us for scoffing and questioning because what she saw and believed we saw entirely different based on looking at surrounding evidence and evidence within the act itself (guys talking to one another throughout the match to make sure they are on the same page for the next move.)

[Diplomat]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Mutty: I feel you on the wrestling thing, but given that it is all entertainment, nothing that happens in the squared circle surprises me. I saw a behind the wrestling program recently, and it was interesting how the WWE people actually sat down and planned the details of each 'match'. It was hilarious.

Back to the subject of faith though. Most sincere Christians will tell you there are lots of things in and about the Bible they don't understand. Then again, I do not know of any Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, or anyone who has all the answers to questions around their beliefs, or lack thereof. I am reminded of a Winston Churchill quote: "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth. And most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if nothing had happened." Maybe we all have seen Truth - to some degree - at some point in our lives. The problem seems to lie in our interpretation of what we see. I guess like Pilate, we constantly ask ourselves: "What is truth?" I seem to recall his wife Claudia, in the movie The Passion, told him: "If you cannot feel truth, I cannot tell it to you." Could it be that Truth is not something we can logically explain? The Christian accepts that Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life." Who is to say that s/he is wrong in accepting that?

[WitchyOoman]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Fledgist, how much will you charge me for a "thinking-contract"? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I want to pay you quarterly, and have you do ALL my thinking FOR me here on j'com - okay? How much and how often must I pay you for your services, then? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/704555_dwl.gif[/img] I wanna hire you with a signed contract before everybody else does... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


(Damn embarrassing typos. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] )

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Jedi would not have anything to do

Since when does Jedi need something or someone to help her find something to do or say? I have thought on many occasions that you are probably getting more attention than you deserve.

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Jedi l:
[qb] Jedi would not have anything to do

Since when does Jedi need something or someone to help her find something to do or say? I have thought on many occasions that you are probably getting more attention than you deserve. [/qb]

That's not my fault darling.

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb] Jedi I find this interesting:


{Jedi: Actually it went more like this..."Lead the people into the land knowing that they were less than capable of defeating their foes... and then go before them and slay their opponents this way the world would know that they were God's chosen people and He was the one and only Almighty God."}

So you really feel that there was no other way, huh?

Now as far as I can tell, Israel was the aggresor. The only foe they had were the ones they themselves created - the Canaanites. The Canaanites did not dclare war on them, bother them oe entice them to war. It was Israel who first scandalized them (the propoganda), then tried under Moses to not force the people out of the land, but to actually exterminate them off the face of the earth because God said so. Granted, there may have been truth to the matter that they were some vile people (if the bible is to be believed and is not just a propaganda tool), but they were not bothering Israel with it and with thinking like that, it sets a bad precedent that if you or I find something revolting, we can, with God's approval, eliminate it like say an abortion clinic with a nice home made bomb. After all, the Egyptians were not choirboys either. [/qb]

Seems to me some men sailing in boats came to this side of the world and exterminated a whole bunch of people who were going about their merry affairs worshipping their gods on totem poles and sending up smoke signals to one another. Now 2000 odd years later here we are you and I arguing about God's blood thirsty ways over the internet of all things. Food for thought huh?