A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

[Diplomat]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:

Originally posted by BIGGAHVIEW:
Dem no believe innah God but dem spend most a di time trying to prove there is not one. Why waste yu time?.And why would you care if others do. No fi dem worries..
Some ppl just need to be heard a guess.

Nine times out of ten it is the other way round. It is religious ones who spend their time and effort converting or trying to prove that their is a god. I never worry about it till I am asked.

Are you kidding? Have you counted the number of threads in this forum started by non believers taking issue with Christians and God?

[bigbooie]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by BIGGAHVIEW:
[qb] Dem no believe innah God but dem spend most a di time trying to prove there is not one. Why waste yu time?.And why would you care if others do. No fi dem worries..
Some ppl just need to be heard a guess.
[/qb]

Nine times out of ten it is the other way round. It is religious ones who spend their time and effort converting or trying to prove that their is a god. I never worry about it till I am asked. [/qb]

Nine times outtah ten huh? WOW!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by CEW:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:

Originally posted by BIGGAHVIEW:
Dem no believe innah God but dem spend most a di time trying to prove there is not one. Why waste yu time?.And why would you care if others do. No fi dem worries..
Some ppl just need to be heard a guess.

Nine times out of ten it is the other way round. It is religious ones who spend their time and effort converting or trying to prove that their is a god. I never worry about it till I am asked.

Are you kidding? Have you counted the number of threads in this forum started by non believers taking issue with Christians and God? [/qb]

Well #1 I have been around longer than just now.
Maybe it is the fact that the same person who you then invited non-Christians to the torture chamber when he was a Christian is the same person (or so I understand) is not a Christian anymore (please correct me if I am wrong), that same person now routinely starts topics questioning Christianity.
Not only that, his erstwhile Christian friends seems to be beside themselves and are busily spinning topics off (based on talking points) generated by his Alpha Posts at very high rates.

#2 I was not basing my answer solely on the goings-on in this forum. Most combatants here have well used bloody swords, the tips of which are broken in their fellow enemy-combatants hide, so every once in a while they sharpen them and return to fray to open old wounds. In the real at least in the Western Hemisphere our lives are ordered according to the Christian Format therefore in ordinary course of work or play these questions come up.

Like when I visited my used Camera Equipment Supplier at the Flea Market with whom I was dutifully spending my loot. He out of the Blue, (well not quite the news on the TV showed the Paki Military busily hunting Muslims), he asked me if I like Terrorists, (maybe because I look like one I don’t know), I said if by that you mean religious fanatics who go around blowing up things because God told them to the answer is no!

He concurred but asked if I believe in God.... I said no, he almost choked on his coffee.
I still get lens at reasonable prices but he warns my GF that I have a strange thing about God. Good thing he discovered my transgressions before we became friends.

Yes nine times out of ten it is the saved ones that choke on our belief or lack of belief.

[bigbooie]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

exactly what do you beleive?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by BIGGAHVIEW:
[qb] exactly what do you beleive? [/qb]

Well...that there is no God and never was a God.

[bigbooie]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

So how do you think you got here or your mother and so forth?

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Fledgist,

Hope you didn't hold your breath. source

Introducing "With Union", The Christian History of the Constitution of the United States Of America
Volume II
Christian Self-Government with Union
Compiled by Verna M. Hall

Feature Article
By Mary-Elaine Swanson


Since the publication of The Christian History of the Constitution of the United States of America, Volume I: Christian Self-Government, compiled by Verna M. Hall, many thoughtful readers have rejoiced in rediscovering their unique American Christian heritage as revealed in its pages. What they learned often confirmed deeply held convictions about the Christian foundations of our self-governing institutions. Its scholarly documentation helped teachers and students to understand (sometimes for the first time) the profound influence of Christianity upon our early Founding Fathers and upon the Framers of the United States Constitution.
Now, since the celebrations of the Bicentennial of the Constitution (1787-1791/1987-1991), there seems to be an increased desire to learn how our American union came into being and what our Founders intended to achieve in the unique national/ federal system of government they gave us. There also appears to be a renewed desire to learn more about the character of the men who gave us our Constitution.
Finally, there is an awareness that if we are to hand down to the next generation the unique blessings of liberty, self-government and union that our forefathers bequeathed to us - and which they saw as the work of Divine Providence - we must understand the Christian origins of these blessings.
It is surely appropriate that during this Bicentennial period a Study Guide should at last appear for Volume II of the Christian History of the Constitution series - Christian Self-Government with Union, also compiled by Miss Hall, the Founder of the Foundation for American Christian Education in San Francisco. This rich collection of historical documents dealing with the development of American union extends the work she began in Volume I, which dealt primarily with the development of self-government on the North American continent.
As Felix Morley explained in his Introduction to Volume II: "Although a unit in itself, Volume I was, in a sense, a preliminary compilation. Its documentation of the development of self-government begins with the Christian idea of the nature of man and terminates with the Declaration of Independence."
When, in 1965, Rosalie J. Slater wrote her book, Teaching and Learning America's Christian History: The Principle Approach, it added a new dimension to the usefulness of Miss Hall's compilation. In Teaching and Learning, Miss Slater used the historical materials in Volume I to teach students seven fundamental principles by which our forefathers lived. Her book also gave the reader two valuable courses for adults. (See Teaching and Learning T & L, p.59 and p.303)
In 1978, Rus Walton, President of Plymouth Rock Foundation, produced Fundamentals for American Christians, a Study Manual which documented Biblically some of the principles that were presented in Miss Slater's book. Mr. Walton emphasized the direct link that exists between Biblical principles and precepts and the individual American's liberty, self-government and right to hold property; the Bible as "the political textbook" of early Americans; and the need for American Christians today to restore and rebuild the republic's eroded foundations under God's guidance.
In 1981, the Mayflower Institute published The American Covenant - the Untold Story by Marshall Foster and Mary-Elaine Swanson which traced the covenantal roots of the Constitution, utilizing the historical documentation found in Volume I. The book dealt with several of the principles outlined in Teaching and Learning - God's Principle of Individuality, the Christian Principle of Self-Government, "Conscience is the Most Sacred of all Property," and The Christian Form of OUT Government. The goal of the authors was to prepare thousands of Americans to think more deeply about how the Hand of God and the truths of God's Word contributed to our early American character and our Constitution and to offer practical suggestions on how to restore the foundations of both the American character and the Constitution to their original Biblical basis.
The circulation of the books produced by Plymouth Rock Foundation and the Mayflower Institute have increasingly opened up new avenues for the study of Volume I and its companion book, Teaching and Learning - in Christian day schools, home schools and adult study groups in churches and homes.
Now, James B. Rose, President of the American Christian History Institute, has published his Guide to American Christian Education, as the fruitage of his many years of teaching the Principle Approach to parents and children, while Headmaster of the first Principle Approach school and later through his adult seminars and institutes. His book will enable parents and teachers to take hold of this unique teaching method predicated upon America's Christian history and government and put it to work in the home and the school.
Meanwhile, however, there has remained a rich vein of historical research in Volume II that has been largely untapped, but which is equally vital for Americans to understand before the original basis of our American union can be restored. As Felix Morley explained: "Now, Volume II carries this promising undertaking a stage farther. While its predecessor concentrated on the development of the idea and practice of self-government, this book is primarily concerned with the growth of the spirit of unity among Americans. It is a unity, the reader will soon discover, that is built from the ground up in the setting of Christian fellowship." (See Introduction, p. XXI)
Over the years since Vol. II first appeared in 1962, there have been suggestions that a Study Guide be produced enabling the student to explore its riches and apply its lessons to our time. It is perhaps providential that this has not happened until now. It has taken time for Christian History, Vol. I, to leaven and permeate the thinking of American Christians on the important first lesson our Founding Fathers had to learn (one which should be no less important to us today) - the principle of Christian Self-government
Those who have studied Vol. I understand that there is no better time than now, during these Bicentennial years, to study the second important lesson our Founding Fathers learned so well: the Biblical balance between Christian self-government and union. The United States of America was founded as a union that acknowledged and protected individual liberty and self-government under law. It also protected the integrity and independence of the individual states at the same time as it enabled them to act together cooperatively for their general concerns.
The Christian spirit of unity in defense of Christian self-government, as expressed in our early history, is beautifully documented in Vol. II. In its pages we learn that this spirit of unity enabled Americans to bring forth their unique national/federal union under the Constitution.


Excerpt from the Study Guide to The Christian History of the Constitution, Vol. II; Christian Self-government with Union, by Mary Elaine Swanson. Published with permission by the American Christian History Institute. [/qb]

Curiously, no 'Christian principles' are enumerated above. This is not in the least surprising.

Individual liberty is not, for example, a Christian principle -- it lacks warrant in both Christian scripture and tradition. Nor, for that matter, is freedom of religion.

The founders of the US refused to establish a church, prohibited religious tests, and prohibited Congress from legislating about religious beliefs.

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Fledgist,

On the Genealogy of Morals

PREFACE

1

We are unknown to ourselves, we men of knowledge—and with good reason. We have never sought ourselves—how could it happen that we should ever find ourselves? It has rightly been said: "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" [Matthew 6:21]; our treasure is where the beehives of our knowledge are. We are constantly making for them, being by nature winged creatures and honey-gatherers of the spirit; there is one thing alone we really care about from the heart—"bringing something home."
.

source

Without a doubt you are familiar with these works. My point is though he goes on to berate everything christian, buhdist, etc about morals, in the preface he admits it has been rightly said, and then quotes Mathew. [/qb]

And this signifies?

[Fledgist]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by accepted:
[qb] Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers

http://www.legallibraries.com/Christiani...0801052319.html



Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers
by Authors: John Eidsmoe
Released: July, 1995
ISBN: 0801052319
Paperback

Sales Rank: 6,339
List price: $26.99
Our price: $18.35 (You save: $8.64)




Book > Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers > Customer Reviews:


Average Customer Rating:

Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers > Customer Review #1:
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The Best Book Ive Read in Years!

This is the best book I have read in years. This book takes the reader up close and personal with the ideals, dreams, and thoughts of the founding fathers. The founding fathers were not perfect, but their dream for "one nation under God", a nation founded upon the principles of the Bible, was the best ever embarked upon by mankind. This book traces the development of earlier thinkers such as John Locke who outlined the basic rights of people. The book takes each part of the constitution and shows its early formation from dreams of peasants to reality in America. Ultimately, the book takes each of the more outstanding founding fathers, from Thomas Jefferson to John Jay and Patrick Henry, quoting from original sources what their true thoughts were concerning God, the Bible, and Christianity, and how they applied their beliefs to the framework of America. If you want to know more about our founding fathers and their true thoughts, read this book, fully documented, rather than depending upon modern history revisionists. I cannot over-emphasize the importance and greatness of this book!


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Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers > Customer Review #2:
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The Book Should Be Read Before Reviewed...

*Christianity and the Constitution* is a sober, careful overview of the historical and intellectual foundations of the Framers of the US Constitution, particularly in regard to how the Christian worldview influenced their view of man, his nature, the role, purpose and scope of government, etc.
Eidsmoe copiously documents his work from the primary materials and related scholarly secondary materials. His case is substantive and conclusive. Were *all* the Framers devout Christians? No. Were most of them Christians? Yes. More importantly, it is documented that the intellectual and philosophical foundations of their worldview and the American culture in general was overwhelmingly Protestant Christian, and this weighed heavily in their work.

Regarding a "reviewer" asserting, and I quote, "Indeed, it was a concession by Jefferson which allowed the word God into our Constitution. Many may feel this is a wonderful book, but that does not mean that it is accurate," one cant help but sense the irony in their statement and their comment regarding accuracy.

[a] Thomas Jefferson had nothing to do with the writing or ratification of the US Constitution--he was in France at the time on a diplomatic mission, so he didnt offer "concession" pro or con regarding the inclusion of the word "God" in the Constitution;

[b] The word "God" does not appear in the US Constitution. As such, their comments regarding Jefferson taking part in the Constitutional Convention are predicated upon ignorance, as such their comment regarding Jeffersons "concession" are likewise predicated upon their ignorance of the subject, and finally their assertion that the word "God" does appear in the text of the Constitution also displays they are not only ignorant of the history of the Constitutional Convention and its participants, but also ignorant of the content of the US Constitution itself.

Their review is as such moot and worthless. Read the book for yourself, study its sources and dont permit prejudiced dislike and religious bigotry to poison the well of this informative book.


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Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers > Customer Review #3:
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A bit simplistic

John Eidsmoes book is definately relevant to any inquiry into the relation between the Church and the Civil magistrate, particularly in regard to that relation at the founding of the constitution. The naive assumption that politics operate in an epistemic vaccum is, hopefully, washed away by Eidsmoes presentation of general philosophical and religious precommitments of our nations early politicians.
I believe Eidsmoe is a bit optomistic in regard to the orthodoxy of the faith of the constitutional founders, definately underplaying the Masonic influence on their views. Whatever their particular views, Christians should hardly claim them in defense of a thoroughly anti-christian covenantal document that established the *people* as the Sovereign of the nation. Vague references to God hardly establish a Christian nature to the document, though undoubtably, as Eidsmoe states, the structure itself can obviously be attributed to the Presbyterian model of government.

With that said, the book is, in the end, worth reading. Particularly the 22nd chapter, "Into the Third Century: Where does the US go from Here?" Eidsmoe, likely unintentionally, evidences the futility of a covenantal document that establishes human autonomy as Sovereign by its thorough subjectivism. Eidsmoe demonstates this with a number of penal examples (what *exactly* is the normative referant for cruel and unusual punishment today?)

After reading this book, I would highly recommend Gary Norths "Political Polytheism" to supplement it with a little Biblical orthodoxy (keep in mind, Eidsmoe is a dispensationalist - *gag*)


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Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers > Related Products
Original Intent: The Courts, the Constitution, and Religion
Faith of Our Founding Fathers
The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America
Americas God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations
The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness
Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence
Why the Religious Right Is Wrong: About Separation of Church and State
Light and the Glory
The Myth of Christian America : What You Need to Know About the Separation of Church and State [/qb]

Note that none of the above actually provides evidence that the US Constitution was founded on Christian principles.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by BIGGAHVIEW:
[qb] So how do you think you got here or your mother and so forth? [/qb]

Think about it. Is this really important?
If that question was as important as it is made out to be (in reply to lack of belief), wouldn't you think that man would haul an pull up and spend every effort to determine that rather than making wars based on their beliefs?

No I don't worry about where I came from or my mom for that matter.

[JesusDread]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

TuffGong, yu say yu no believe ina God, very brave of you but that don't make God non-existent, it only makes you pityful because even the Devil knows there is a God.

Yu think if I say I don't believe in oxygen because I can't see or touch it means were all just gonna run out of air? Chill out my yute, while we are sympathetic with your misgivings about God, we can't help you on your trip to hell, you got to help yourself. Bon voyage!

[Mutty]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Wow!

[Tuff Gong]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by JesusDread:
[qb] TuffGong, yu say yu no believe ina God, very brave of you but that don't make God non-existent, it only makes you pityful because even the Devil knows there is a God.

Yu think if I say I don't believe in oxygen because I can't see or touch it means were all just gonna run out of air? Chill out my yute, while we are sympathetic with your misgivings about God, we can't help you on your trip to hell, you got to help yourself. Bon voyage! [/qb]

Just cool DreadJeezas I am not trying to separate you fram yu God.
I don't have one and don't need one.

[Guest]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by BIGGAHVIEW:
[qb] So how do you think you got here or your mother and so forth? [/qb]

Think about it. Is this really important?
If that question was as important as it is made out to be (in reply to lack of belief), wouldn't you think that man would haul an pull up and spend every effort to determine that rather than making wars based on their beliefs?

No I don't worry about where I came from or my mom for that matter. [/qb]

Who says we are not hauling and pulling up
to try and determine that? So why are we spending billions of taxpayer dollars to explore what is "out there in space" isn't it because we want to know what or who else is out there and possibly to find a link to how we got here?

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: A moral dilemma for Ex-Christians???

Originally posted by JesusDread:

...while we are sympathetic with your misgivings about God, we can't help you on your trip to hell, you got to help yourself. Bon voyage!

How many times have we read this cheerful rebuke from our Christian brothers and sisters? What glee they seem to feel in their secure knowledge that their loving god will punish non-believers, once they are dead (but not really dead), forever.

_