There is nothing wrong with Slavery

[Fledgist]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]Why, why do you only focus on Africans only as slaves? Since we are speaking about whether the bible condoned slavery or not, how can you leave out the Israelites being slaves under the Pharoahs of Egypt??? Not fair!! Now which fallacy are you guilty of?? One sided-argument IF you ask me.

Slavery is/was wrong period!! Most of slavery mentioned as far as I remember occurred in the Old testament. Jesus, the Christ who came after, and is mentioned in the New Testament, came not only to fulfil many prophecies from the Old Testament, BUT also to clarify/purify the laws of old, hence slavery and anything wrong that would be condoned under old Testament law, would by his coming be abolished...that was one purpose of his coming.

The PROBLEM is, FAKE christians, unkind, wicked, unloving, wicked "so-called" christians who used the Bible to encourage and perpetrate slavery were just that, un-Christ-like, unchristian, wicked and evil...FAKE!!![/qb]

While I quite agree that slavery is wrong, the point here is whether the Bible contains a condemnation of slavery as an institution. It does not. Many quite sincere Christians have considered slavery legitimated by the many references to its legitimacy in the Bible (Paul's injunction, in Ephesians, to slaves to obey their masters because it was right to do so comes to mind).

[MissMention]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Funny how all those whose voices are usually the loudest proclaiming the virtues of the Good Book are collectively silent....maybe they're all frantically scouring their Bibles... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[rufian]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by MissChin:
[qb]Funny how all those whose voices are usually the loudest proclaiming the virtues of the Good Book are collectively silent....maybe they're all frantically scouring their Bibles... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

Yes man, me a wander a when dem a kum in.
Jedi weh yu? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[dahjah]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]Why, why do you only focus on Africans only as slaves? Since we are speaking about whether the bible condoned slavery or not, how can you leave out the Israelites being slaves under the Pharoahs of Egypt??? Not fair!! Now which fallacy are you guilty of?? One sided-argument IF you ask me.

Slavery is/was wrong period!! Most of slavery mentioned as far as I remember occurred in the Old testament. Jesus, the Christ who came after, and is mentioned in the New Testament, came not only to fulfil many prophecies from the Old Testament, BUT also to clarify/purify the laws of old, hence slavery and anything wrong that would be condoned under old Testament law, would by his coming be abolished...that was one purpose of his coming.

The PROBLEM is, FAKE christians, unkind, wicked, unloving, wicked "so-called" christians who used the Bible to encourage and perpetrate slavery were just that, un-Christ-like, unchristian, wicked and evil...FAKE!!![/qb]

The Africans who were takin' into slavery are the very same ppl who were called Israel.
They just don't know it any more, somebody has stolen their birthrite.

[rufian]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

straight up dahjah. dem know, dem a preten [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[dahjah]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

who know?
most a dem nuh believe, dem really believe seh dem ppl ovah deh a de real israel. Dem get bline up by dem bline pastor.

[neutral]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

admittedly a very interesting topic,...
during slavery the churches justified slavery by saying that blacks were not people,they were heathens,and therefore "god" required them to be treated as such.
the church was the biggest advocate of slavery,
indeed the most illustrius religious institutions standing today was built on the very backs of slaves,and the revenue from the slave trade.

If I may be so bold,I would even venture to suggest that without religion,the african slave trade would not have been possible.
It was as a direct result of so-called missionaries and their cheap baubles and bibles that the african slave trade began.

[Dyoll]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]Slavery is/was wrong period!! Most of slavery mentioned as far as I remember occurred in the Old testament. Jesus, the Christ who came after, and is mentioned in the New Testament, came not only to fulfil many prophecies from the Old Testament, BUT also to clarify/purify the laws of old, hence slavery and anything wrong that would be condoned under old Testament law, would by his coming be abolished...that was one purpose of his coming.[/qb]

Christians consider the Old Testament as part of the sacred cannon, and certainly it was God, (according to the Bible) who gave the guidelines as to how slaves were treated and indeed how the institution of slavery was regulated. This raises the question: Is there an evolution in God's morality with respect to slavery in the era of the New Testament? If so, what does this say about one of those 'attributes' of God - immutability? The Psalmist said that with God, there is no variability. He is supposedly the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Most, if not all christians now see slavery as morally wrong despite its practice in 'biblical' times, and also, inspite of the fact that there is no expressed prohibition in the Bible against the practice. The question now is: do you consider God to be the source of morality?

[britisha]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

ASo? The New Testament handle slavery same as the old. Abraham is not fake, Lot is not fake, Moses not fake, Paul is definitely not fake.

Back to Abraham, Lot and Moses. Dem a Christian?


To Sukana, ainke neh whi yu ke tkengi biout, whey yu seh?

[britisha]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Funny how all those whose voices are usually the loudest proclaiming the virtues of the Good Book are collectively silent....maybe they're all frantically scouring their Bibles...

Funny fi chrro, nutting a likkle brillo pad cyaan fix; or is it Comet? I say leave it to brillo, brillo, Misss chin, BRILLO!!

[jedi]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by Dyoll:
[qb]

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]Slavery is/was wrong period!! Most of slavery mentioned as far as I remember occurred in the Old testament. Jesus, the Christ who came after, and is mentioned in the New Testament, came not only to fulfil many prophecies from the Old Testament, BUT also to clarify/purify the laws of old, hence slavery and anything wrong that would be condoned under old Testament law, would by his coming be abolished...that was one purpose of his coming.[/qb]

Christians consider the Old Testament as part of the sacred cannon, and certainly it was God, (according to the Bible) who gave the guidelines as to how slaves were treated and indeed how the institution of slavery was regulated. This raises the question: Is there an evolution in God's morality with respect to slavery in the era of the New Testament? If so, what does this say about one of those 'attributes' of God - immutability? The Psalmist said that with God, there is no variability. He is supposedly the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Most, if not all christians now see slavery as morally wrong despite its practice in 'biblical' times, and also, inspite of the fact that there is no expressed prohibition in the Bible against the practice. The question now is: do you consider God to be the source of morality?[/qb]

There was not expressed prohibition against divorce either in the Old Testament, these laws were given by Moses, for as Jesus said he Moses gave in to the demands of the stubbornness of these people. But now as I understand it slavery in those times in no way can be compared to what the black man suffered at the hands of his European masters. When I asked the question, why did our ancestors sell us into slavery to begin with, because remember the white man didnot know the terrain well so he paid in guns and goods to have our ppl. captured by our own ppl. and brought to be taken as slaves? The response I get is that slavery has been around since the beginning of time. Part of the booty taken when a country was conquered by its foes was to take the women and children mostly into slavery. Now according to what I understand this was a widespread practice everywhere, but they had no idea that the slaves taken for the new world would be treated the way they were treated.

Now back on topic - Does an immutable God change His mind after to make slavery an immoral practice? Lets go back to the beginning of time when the first man sinned. Was it His original plan that man would become the slave of other men? But as demonstrated time and time again by the disobedience of mankind, they followed their own understanding and did as they pleased. Now in the New Testament Jesus came to do away with that, by the release of bondage not to the body but of the mind taken captive to sin, which is where the real slavery begins. Sin (greed, lust, idolatry) is what lead man to want to own another mans soul, those things began in the heart of a man. Now we talk about slavery of the past but now we are all free thanks be to the Victory in Christ. The word says "But do you not know that that which you present your bodies to, to become slaves, that thing will be your master." I see a different type of slavery very prevalent today, and that is the slavery to this worlds passing goods, sin in other words. So while we are concerned about the past practice of human physical bondage to sin we seem to be overlooking the obvious, which is our present day bondage to sin of the most hienous kind. Paul writing to the Corinthians had this to say "Are you a slave? Don't let that worry you--but if you get a chance to be free, take it. And remember, if you were a slave when the Lord called you, the Lord has now set you free from the awful power of sin. And if you were free when the Lord called you, you are now a slave of Christ. God purchased you at a high price. Don't be enslaved by the world." (1 Cor. 7:21-23). "Whom Christ has set free shall be free indeed."

Now Dyoll in my estimation God has not changed one iota. He gave men freedom to choose and it would appear made allowances for their circumstances over time, as seen in the time of the early settlement of the Israelites. But God's concern has always been the heart of mankind. The heart is where sin begins. The heart is what becomes the real slave. Slavery to sin is what Christ came to do away with and there is where the evolution of man begins. Our God remains immutable and unchanged in His resolve to win His people back from bondage and slavery to sin.

[britisha]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Christians consider the Old Testament as part of the sacred cannon, and certainly it was God, (according to the Bible) who gave the guidelines as to how slaves were treated and indeed how the institution of slavery was regulated. This raises the question: Is there an evolution in God's morality with respect to slavery in the era of the New Testament?

Dyoll, since you preambled this snippet with a piece from my post, I will take the liberty to attempt to offer a response. From reading your previous posts you seem to negate the existence of God, therefore, on that basis, which "God" are you speaking of? If it is the "God" as per christian definition, I'm afraid you lost me with that question? Why would any morality undergo an evolution? Explain for me, please.

If so, what does this say about one of those 'attributes' of God - immutability? The Psalmist said that with God, there is no variability. He is supposedly the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

What are we talking about here Dyoll? The law(s) of Moses or the "attributes" of God? While the practice of slavery was abominable, so were the other practices of adultery, fornication and much more as outlined in the Old Testament: one must and has to see all this in accordance with the customs and mores of the times then.

IMHO, all abominations that were practised then, were the result of sin, plain and simple. I agree with the psalmist, re "God being the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow." This is not an easy concept to fathom, especially if one does NOT believe in this deity.

This is very astute on your part to ask this, for if one answers "NO" (that God is not always the same), then you and yours would have ammunition to say that God is a changing "God;" one second this, and the next minute that!!...so what kind of God is that!!

Don't confuse what I said about Jesus, the Christ coming not only to die for our sins, but to abolish old laws as well as to fulfil. Here's and example, Mark 10:2...."and the Pharisees coming to him, asked him tempting Him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife?"

(4) But He answering said to them: What did Moses command you? Who said: Moses permitted to write a bill of divorce and to put her away.

(5) To whom Jesus, answering said: Because of the hardness of your heart***, he wrote you that precept....unto verse

(9) What therefore, God hath joined together, let no man put assunder."

Is God changing here? Look at the context that all this is said, look at the concept behind Moses writing them such a law, as now explained by Jesus, the Christ. Does that mean that God didn't sacntify the institution of marriage? Look at the play on the word "lawful." These people were tough, accdng to the bible, and were into game playing, hardeining their hearts and trying to trick Jesus.

Most, if not all christians now see slavery as morally wrong despite its practice in 'biblical' times, and also, inspite of the fact that there is no expressed prohibition in the Bible against the practice. The question now is: do you consider God to be the source of morality?

--------------------
"I think. Therefore I am."

You will again, have to define what you mean by morality. This is a very subjective term, ie what is moral and just to one, may not seem moral and just to another.....so where does God comes into this? Is morality contingent on the Bible, how would one explain this contingency to a Muslim? Got mi? The issue here, is not whether God is moral or not. If God is good, by definition, wouldn't I be contradicting myself to say that God is immoral? Come oon man, give me a little credit... Man has a conscience that should guide him to know what is right and what is wrong, and on this basis know how to act, Dyoll...unfortunately, this doesn't always seems to be the case..

To approach this discussion from the angle, whether God is moral or not, will take it off track, down another road, where most of these threads end up anyway.

Thanks for the post, very cleverly outlined.

***key words...."hardness of heart." this is the problem in the world today, the hardness of man's heart.

[dahjah]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]ASo? The New Testament handle slavery same as the old. Abraham is not fake, Lot is not fake, Moses not fake, Paul is definitely not fake.

Back to Abraham, Lot and Moses. Dem a Christian?


To Sukana, ainke neh whi yu ke tkengi biout, whey yu seh?[/qb]

Pual is the biggest fake [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
evryting Jesus seh fe do Paul seh de opposite, an unno a follow him. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[jedi]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by dahjah:
[qb]

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]ASo? The New Testament handle slavery same as the old. Abraham is not fake, Lot is not fake, Moses not fake, Paul is definitely not fake.

Back to Abraham, Lot and Moses. Dem a Christian?


To Sukana, ainke neh whi yu ke tkengi biout, whey yu seh?[/qb]

Pual is the biggest fake [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
evryting Jesus seh fe do Paul seh de opposite, an unno a follow him. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [/qb]

Ahh sah!!!

[rufian]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by dahjah:
[qb]

Originally posted by britisha:
[qb]ASo? The New Testament handle slavery same as the old. Abraham is not fake, Lot is not fake, Moses not fake, Paul is definitely not fake.

Back to Abraham, Lot and Moses. Dem a Christian?


To Sukana, ainke neh whi yu ke tkengi biout, whey yu seh?[/qb]

Pual is the biggest fake [img]/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
evryting Jesus seh fe do Paul seh de opposite, an unno a follow him. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [/qb]

dahjah, mi tell yu say dem israealites know. Na uncover su much detail a wa yu a deal wid? yu waan fe mash up de discussion? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Tink a paul wan fiak?