There is nothing wrong with Slavery

[NYer]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

[helping sukuna out here with what jedi said]

Now back on topic - Does an immutable God change His mind after to make slavery an immoral practice? Lets go back to the beginning of time when the first man sinned. Was it His original plan that man would become the slave of other men? But as demonstrated time and time again by the disobedience of mankind, they followed their own understanding and did as they pleased.

Just want to ask for clarification here - are you saying that the Bible does NOT condone slavery but that bad people ignored what the bible said and enslaved people anyway? It sounds like you're saying that but I'm not sure. Of course my follow-up question, if that is what you meant, is where in the bible is God saying NOT to take slaves that these people are ignoring that and doing as they please?

Now in the New Testament Jesus came to do away with that, by the release of bondage not to the body but of the mind taken captive to sin, which is where the real slavery begins.

This looks like a dodge - I think the original topic (correct me if I'm wrong sukuna) is asking about slavery - the kind where a person belongs to another person and has to do what they say - in the bible. Mental slavery is an interesting issue but I think beside the question here.

Sin (greed, lust, idolatry) is what lead man to want to own another mans soul, those things began in the heart of a man.

...with encouragement from the Bible (and thus God, right?), is the point I think.

Now we talk about slavery of the past but now we are all free thanks be to the Victory in Christ. The word says "But do you not know that that which you present your bodies to, to become slaves, that thing will be your master." I see a different type of slavery very prevalent today, and that is the slavery to this worlds passing goods, sin in other words. So while we are concerned about the past practice of human physical bondage to sin we seem to be overlooking the obvious, which is our present day bondage to sin of the most hienous kind. Paul writing to the Corinthians had this to say "Are you a slave? Don't let that worry you--but if you get a chance to be free, take it. And remember, if you were a slave when the Lord called you, the Lord has now set you free from the awful power of sin. And if you were free when the Lord called you, you are now a slave of Christ. God purchased you at a high price. Don't be enslaved by the world." (1 Cor. 7:21-23). "Whom Christ has set free shall be free indeed."

Now Dyoll in my estimation God has not changed one iota. He gave men freedom to choose and it would appear made allowances for their circumstances over time, as seen in the time of the early settlement of the Israelites. But God's concern has always been the heart of mankind. The heart is where sin begins. The heart is what becomes the real slave. Slavery to sin is what Christ came to do away with and there is where the evolution of man begins. Our God remains immutable and unchanged in His resolve to win His people back from bondage and slavery to sin.

[jedi]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by NYer:
[qb][helping sukuna out here with what jedi said]

Now back on topic - Does an immutable God change His mind after to make slavery an immoral practice? Lets go back to the beginning of time when the first man sinned. Was it His original plan that man would become the slave of other men? But as demonstrated time and time again by the disobedience of mankind, they followed their own understanding and did as they pleased.

Just want to ask for clarification here - are you saying that the Bible does NOT condone slavery but that bad people ignored what the bible said and enslaved people anyway? It sounds like you're saying that but I'm not sure. Of course my follow-up question, if that is what you meant, is where in the bible is God saying NOT to take slaves that these people are ignoring that and doing as they please?

Now in the New Testament Jesus came to do away with that, by the release of bondage not to the body but of the mind taken captive to sin, which is where the real slavery begins.

This looks like a dodge - I think the original topic (correct me if I'm wrong sukuna) is asking about slavery - the kind where a person belongs to another person and has to do what they say - in the bible. Mental slavery is an interesting issue but I think beside the question here.

Sin (greed, lust, idolatry) is what lead man to want to own another mans soul, those things began in the heart of a man.

...with encouragement from the Bible (and thus God, right?), is the point I think.

Now we talk about slavery of the past but now we are all free thanks be to the Victory in Christ. The word says "But do you not know that that which you present your bodies to, to become slaves, that thing will be your master." I see a different type of slavery very prevalent today, and that is the slavery to this worlds passing goods, sin in other words. So while we are concerned about the past practice of human physical bondage to sin we seem to be overlooking the obvious, which is our present day bondage to sin of the most hienous kind. Paul writing to the Corinthians had this to say "Are you a slave? Don't let that worry you--but if you get a chance to be free, take it. And remember, if you were a slave when the Lord called you, the Lord has now set you free from the awful power of sin. And if you were free when the Lord called you, you are now a slave of Christ. God purchased you at a high price. Don't be enslaved by the world." (1 Cor. 7:21-23). "Whom Christ has set free shall be free indeed."

Now Dyoll in my estimation God has not changed one iota. He gave men freedom to choose and it would appear made allowances for their circumstances over time, as seen in the time of the early settlement of the Israelites. But God's concern has always been the heart of mankind. The heart is where sin begins. The heart is what becomes the real slave. Slavery to sin is what Christ came to do away with and there is where the evolution of man begins. Our God remains immutable and unchanged in His resolve to win His people back from bondage and slavery to sin.

[/qb]

(((NYER))) Nice that you are helping Sukuna out.
Please reread what I said again and what ever you think I mean that is what I mean.

[britisha]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by sukuna:
Slavery is a taboo topic too eh?

For you it is obviously, for you are afraid of the glaring truth, why? Why? Hoisted with your own petard? Sure it is a bitter pill for you to swallow, but hey!!

but we are definitely on different levels madame. Clear out. Me exposed when you know me. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I'd be damned if I used this board for me talent manifestations, never hear bout university? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] But bamboozling is a pleasure.

Somebody tell me how

I would NEVER wish to know you sukuna, I've seen enuff; yu can bet the house on that. As for your allegations of drinking and/or being drunk, *I* can bet that YOU know more on this topic/behavioural practice than I do. It is sooo self-evident here.

Throughout the bible slavery is practiced and there is nothing said againt it. So how come we make such a big fuss because we were slaves. Given that we go by God's word - the Bible?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
brings about some mad hen to say on this full moon:

Here it is peeps, Sukuna calling her original post, the post of a mad hen.~~~~~ Waiee,~~~~ can always count on this board for some real comedy. That was YOUR post eddieboo that I commented on, what happened here? Amnesia is setting in? A classic case of chat, chat, chat, til yu chat pere faaawt.

Consult a dictionary for the meaning of sophisticated. I was not implying fancy - one more proof
vrb. trn 3:

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=sophisticated

You are defeating the purpose of discussion. Slavery in the Bible, not in Africa, not in Jamaica, not your persona, get it yet? End

Ohh, cudda fool me, so all your earlier references to colonization and robbing of religion and goods were related to bibical slaves? Ohhh, excuse mi, mek mi guh look ina di bible agen!!

Here is another of your quotes:

However, in African cultures slavery is well developed and sophisticated.

For the sake of the board: Here is one meaning of "sophisticate" accdng to Oxford: Involve (subject) in sophistry: mislead (person) thus: deprive person, thing of simplicity

If you here are not singing the praises of slavery in Africa, then what are you doing? Cum here, lean yu aise yahsoh....whedda yu think seh slavery in Africa is sophisticated, non-sophistcated, well-developed or not well developed or whatever glamour you wish to ascribe it....lissn to mi, it is wrong....W-R-O-N-G...aniboddi reading your posts will come away with the conclusion that you prefer African slavery over other types of slavery....black on black slavery....mek mi spell it out fi yuh.... A cunning twist on semantics, but we can see right through it. I will not lend any more embellishment to your thread by further response, but you may wish to enlighten the board, since you are the only one that attended a UNIVERSITY....waiee.... as to what you really mean.

[NYer]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by jedi:
Please reread what I said again and what ever you think I mean that is what I mean.

Thought so, thanks [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[accepted77]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

One of the reasons why there are not more christian responses to this posting is that this topic have been thrashed out here some time ago.

Mutty in a very eloquent piece showed how the Bible used by white planters to justify negro slavery contain the same passages used by the Quakers and the anti-slavery movement to set up the moral framework for the abolishment of negro slavery.

It is verses from the same Bible being used today to buy out slaves in the Sudan and other African countries.

Jedi rightly showed that chattel slavery practised in the Old Testament was an economic means of repaying a debt and one could sell oneself into slavery up to the year of Jubilee.

You see Isreal as a theocracy was ruled by the preisthood, each transaction in property was an agreement before a preist.

There was no 'parol evidence' by the evidence of two witness all agreements were legally binding.

So I agree to pay you for my new house that you built and the storms destroyed my harvest. I worked for you to repay my loss, further crop losses could render me homeless and I therefore sold myself and my family to you to prevent us living destitute and having a regular meal provided by you, of course, who I now called 'master'.

Call it privatised welfare.

But every 'fifty moon years' came the year of Jubilee, every slave was freed and all property seized to pays debts returned to its former owners.

Slaves were also made of captured nations. This appears to be a borrowed custom from the nations surrounding Isreal.

It was much more preferable to death and since the conquerers pillaged and burn the property and homes of the losing city, private welfare again was more suitable than destitution.

Later I will deal with why God "winked" at these practises. The Bible however decreed how welfare was to be distributed to these POW slaves.

These conquered slaves had only the right to live, fight or work as their lives were spared. They could however buy themselves out of slavery of a benevolent master.

That the prodical son considered selling himself to his 'own' father as a hired servent for food and shelter shows how deep this culture was ingrained.

The Bible in speaking about polagamy specifically warns "in time before God winked at the ignorance of man, but now commands every man to repent".

Men were always intended to have one wife as God set up in Eden, but as the patriarch's took to themselves concubines and maidservants and wives (plural) God supposedly did not rain punishment on them, it is believed because they were building a people and inbreeding would not make a very sucessful "chosen poeple", but after the numbers reached 'take off velocity' so to speak, he said enough is enough.

The Bible does record God caused Joseph to go to Egypt so he could make a Nation out of "Abrahams tribe of sheepherders", along the way they became slaves but when they left Egypt 400 years later they were "master builders".

Simarily one of the foundation themes of the Bible is free will, fredom as we know it is a biblical concept, the preamble to the constitution " all men are created equal and imbubed by their creator with Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is as biblical in origin as John 3:16.

Britisha makes mention of transendence.

Mutty recently quoted "christianity is easier spoken than liven".

Not everyone who says Lord,Lord is a christian.

We really stretch the word christian when we ascribe it to white slave traders.

Is it not the same bible which says you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

[MissMention]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Woooooooooooooieee if mi laugh mi ded, thank you partners Jedi and Fledg, and Britisha and Sukuna, the part I enjoyed most was to read about eight posts all completely ignoring each other lol....Sukuna mi haffi laugh bout di bit whe yu call Britisha mad hen an a yuself yu a talk lol.....

[fiver]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

[rufian]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by MissChin:
[qb]Woooooooooooooieee if mi laugh mi ded, thank you partners Jedi and Fledg, and Britisha and Sukuna, the part I enjoyed most was to read about eight posts all completely ignoring each other lol....Sukuna mi haffi laugh bout di bit whe yu call Britisha mad hen an a yuself yu a talk lol.....[/qb]

Me glad yu amusing yuself [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But comprehension has always been a weakness on this board. A discussion for me is over with a threader when we are on different roads. Miss Chin, how does saying some mad hen calls myself one [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[rufian]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by accepted77:
[qb]One of the reasons why there are not more christian responses to this posting is that this topic have been thrashed out here some time ago.

Mutty in a very eloquent piece showed how the Bible used by white planters to justify negro slavery contain the same passages used by the Quakers and the anti-slavery movement to set up the moral framework for the abolishment of negro slavery.

It is verses from the same Bible being used today to buy out slaves in the Sudan and other African countries.

Jedi rightly showed that chattel slavery practised in the Old Testament was an economic means of repaying a debt and one could sell oneself into slavery up to the year of Jubilee.

You see Isreal as a theocracy was ruled by the preisthood, each transaction in property was an agreement before a preist.

There was no 'parol evidence' by the evidence of two witness all agreements were legally binding.

So I agree to pay you for my new house that you built and the storms destroyed my harvest. I worked for you to repay my loss, further crop losses could render me homeless and I therefore sold myself and my family to you to prevent us living destitute and having a regular meal provided by you, of course, who I now called 'master'.

Call it privatised welfare.

But every 'fifty moon years' came the year of Jubilee, every slave was freed and all property seized to pays debts returned to its former owners.

Slaves were also made of captured nations. This appears to be a borrowed custom from the nations surrounding Isreal.

It was much more preferable to death and since the conquerers pillaged and burn the property and homes of the losing city, private welfare again was more suitable than destitution.

Later I will deal with why God "winked" at these practises. The Bible however decreed how welfare was to be distributed to these POW slaves.

These conquered slaves had only the right to live, fight or work as their lives were spared. They could however buy themselves out of slavery of a benevolent master.

That the prodical son considered selling himself to his 'own' father as a hired servent for food and shelter shows how deep this culture was ingrained.

The Bible in speaking about polagamy specifically warns "in time before God winked at the ignorance of man, but now commands every man to repent".

Men were always intended to have one wife as God set up in Eden, but as the patriarch's took to themselves concubines and maidservants and wives (plural) God supposedly did not rain punishment on them, it is believed because they were building a people and inbreeding would not make a very sucessful "chosen poeple", but after the numbers reached 'take off velocity' so to speak, he said enough is enough.

The Bible does record God caused Joseph to go to Egypt so he could make a Nation out of "Abrahams tribe of sheepherders", along the way they became slaves but when they left Egypt 400 years later they were "master builders".

Simarily one of the foundation themes of the Bible is free will, fredom as we know it is a biblical concept, the preamble to the constitution " all men are created equal and imbubed by their creator with Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is as biblical in origin as John 3:16.

Britisha makes mention of transendence.

Mutty recently quoted "christianity is easier spoken than liven".

Not everyone who says Lord,Lord is a christian.

We really stretch the word christian when we ascribe it to white slave traders.

Is it not the same bible which says you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.[/qb]

So [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

In the bible, not Christians. Every religion holding the bible is not a christian religion.

[rufian]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

To Britisha

One big HEH [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Keep going, looking good. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] If you think these bits can define personalities go on boh.

You have no idea from where I am coming from(oh god for fear of mind poverty - I mean with the discussion ).
I challenge you to debate on West Indian slave culture and you will know who is suffering and who can face facts. But your response will definitely be it is a waste of time even though you keep on responding.
It would wiser to refrain from too many interpretations.
One more time, how does me saying:

I'd be damned if I used this board for me talent manifestations, never hear bout university?
coverts to

since you are the only one that attended a UNIVERSITY.

or drunk to many whites

to

by britisha

I would NEVER wish to know you sukuna, I've seen enuff; yu can bet the house on that. As for your allegations of drinking and/or being drunk, *I* can bet that YOU know more on this topic/behavioural practice than I do. It is sooo self-evident here.

So that implied I called you a drunkard and you call me a drunkard? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I tried to tell you, I am not that primitive in mind. You don't comprehend, you don't comprehend. Don't sweat it.

The meaning of sophisticated implied by me towards African slavery according to dictionary.com taken from the American Heritage dictionary is:
To make more complex or inclusive; refine.

Back to the topic, I see similarities in which slaves were treated in EXODUS 21, just an example:

King James Version Exodus

21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
21:9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
21:11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
21:27 And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
21:32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

[Fledgist]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by jedi:
[qb][
The word struthonian is your invention it does not appear in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

(Fledgist: You searched every dictionary of the English language? In any case, I did not invent the word (it was coined by Arthur Koestler). I stated I did not, earlier, btw.}

You have a very poor memory for your own posts.

As a matter of fact I do have an excellent memory, and I seem to recall that you condemned yourself with your own mouth, I simply reminded you that you will give an account of every idle word that proceeds out of it. But then what is your concern anyway, after all there is no such place as hell.[/qb]

True, there isn't. There also isn't any such place as heaven.

[RollinCalf]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

["There also isn't any such place as heaven."]

And the last time I had some stew peas and a cold Red Stripe while in St. Ann I could have sworn....

[Fledgist]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by RollinCalf:
[qb]["There also isn't any such place as heaven."]

And the last time I had some stew peas and a cold Red Stripe while in St. Ann I could have sworn....[/qb]

And while listening to Beethoven's Ninth I inhabit, briefly, another plane -- alas, an illusion....

There are moments so perfect that one wants to say with Goethe's Faust, o moment stay, thou art so fair, but, sadly, real life has a habit of intruding...

[jedi]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

(Fledgist: You searched every dictionary of the English language? In any case, I did not invent the word (it was coined by Arthur Koestler). I stated I did not, earlier, btw.}

Jedi: That's why this phrase was coined "falla fashin dawg nevva bwile good soup"

[/QUOTE] As a matter of fact I do have an excellent memory, and I seem to recall that you condemned yourself with your own mouth, I simply reminded you that you will give an account of every idle word that proceeds out of it. But then what is your concern anyway, after all there is no such place as hell.[/qb][/QUOTE]True, there isn't. There also isn't any such place as heaven. [/QUOTE]

The existence of a thing does not depend on anyone's belief. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Fledgist]

Re: There is nothing wrong with Slavery

Originally posted by jedi:
[qb]

(Fledgist: You searched every dictionary of the English language? In any case, I did not invent the word (it was coined by Arthur Koestler). I stated I did not, earlier, btw.}

Jedi: That's why this phrase was coined "falla fashin dawg nevva bwile good soup"

{Fledgist: You can't accuse me of neologism and slavish imitation at the same time. Like all Christian fundamentalists, you lack both logic and honesty.}

As a matter of fact I do have an excellent memory, and I seem to recall that you condemned yourself with your own mouth, I simply reminded you that you will give an account of every idle word that proceeds out of it. But then what is your concern anyway, after all there is no such place as hell.[/qb][/QUOTE]True, there isn't. There also isn't any such place as heaven. [/QUOTE]

The existence of a thing does not depend on anyone's belief. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]

Why don't you find out what's there, then come back and tell us?