Three Lost Days

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by Jedi:

The significance of Christs death cannot be undermined as He:

b)He was resurrected on the third day a thing that no one else had done so that it is said that He was the "First born from the dead.
He had done the impossible, he overcame the wall of separation between life and death. In otherwords He conquered death.

Matthew 27:51
....and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection (death actually) they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by Tuesday's Child:

The point is what had to be accomplished beyond the physical agony which NO man has been called upon to do or can be called upon to do.

Right! These are battles by gods. Not people like you or I. Jesus was god in a man's body, so he could suffer death like a man, but as a man he could do all kinds of supernatural things that normal men can't do.

Originally posted by Tuesday's Child:

The weight of the sins of the world upon Him and the crushing moment of separation from the Father is where the pain really lied.

This separation from the Father is another point that we often hear, but I have trouble with. These are three heads of the same being. They are all god, and yet it seems that God The Father gets the most love. But that doesn't make sense, does it, because they all know the outcome with their super power of omniscience? Even Jesus knew what the outcome would be. There was no guessing, only some human fear, but his mind wasn't really human... or am I, or are we slipping into anthropomorphism?

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by accepted:

40 Jesus as a man did not have all knowledge, he faced the unknown of what sin and death would be like in ways you and I cannot fathom. There was a trust in his father that he would be able to take up his life, but first he had to face this as a man.

When you say that we normal folks can't fathom what their thinking and feeling was like. It's kind of a conversation stopper. He wanted us normal people to trust him, like he trusts his father. Blindly.

Originally posted by accepted:

You have not believed the report, so I would not be surprised if you do not understand this, for it requires a disernment of sin as God sees it, sin is anti whatever God is for in him is no darkness. He is Light and light is pure.

This is true. I have not believed the report. I do not believe that an all powerful being would want worship, or require sacrifices.

Originally posted by accepted:

In a real sense Jesus did the impossible, he reversed a direct command from God. This is the real magic that you like to dismiss. With God nothing is impossible.

Unhuh, well that's how it goes with the supernatural beings of our universe. They do what they want to do. No rules!

[Diplomat]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]... At anyrate I do not wish to turn this into a debate. [/qb]

Huh? It is a bit too late for that now don't you think? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Are you implying that your responses are not open for scrutiny/questioning/debate for clarification/correction?

Originally posted by Jedi:

[qb]When Christ died he descended into the place of the dead, He removed the curse of damnation to death of the souls of the many righteous who had died as believers before His death (He led the captives free).

"But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? (Ephesians 4:7-9)[/qb]

My final thoughts...
It is important to understand this verse as a fulfilment of Psalm 68:18, and the context in which it is used. Matthew Henry states: "David prophesied of the ascension of Christ; and the apostle descants upon it here, and in the three following verses. When he ascended up on high. We may understand the apostle both of the place into which he ascended in his human nature, that is, the highest heavens, and particularly of the state to which he was advanced, he being then highly exalted, and eminently glorified, by his Father. Let us set ourselves to think of the ascension of Jesus Christ: that our blessed Redeemer, having risen from the dead, in gone to heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high, which completed the proof of his being the Son of God. As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Judges 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands. And he gave gifts unto men: in the psalm it is, He received gifts for men. He received for them, that he might give to them, a large measure of gifts and graces; particularly, he enriched his disciples with the gift of the Holy Ghost.. Just about any Bible Commentary you can find supports this understanding of the text quoted.

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]Isaiah 42: 5 This is what God the LORD says-
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 "I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. [/qb]

The entire chapter of Isaiah 42 speaks of a prophecy concerning the Messiah, and can be broken down into five parts. I. A prophecy of the Messiah's coming with meekness, and yet with power, to do the Redeemer's work (Isa 42:1-4). II. His commission opened, which he received from the Father (Isa 42:5-9). III. The joy and rejoicing with which the glad tidings of this should be received (Isa 42:10-12). IV. The wonderful success of the gospel, for the overthrow of the devil's kingdom (Isa 42:13-17). V. The rejection and ruin of the Jews for their unbelief (Isa 42:18-25).

Again, it is important to understand scriptures in context, and the prophecy/prophecies they are fulfilling. Taken by themselves, they do not always faciliate an appreciation for what is being represented.

Great discussion guys, and very respectful despite the obvious differences in opinions. Kudos to all who took part.

[jedi]

Re: Three Lost Days

Huh? It is a bit too late for that now don't you think? Are you implying that your responses are not open for scrutiny/questioning/debate for clarification/correction?
Not at all. My hope is that we can come to an understanding, i.e be on the same page where this is concerned, and not enter into a heated debate.
I am not in total disagreement with you at all I am only trying for us to be clear as to what the scripture says in that regard.

The original question if I recall correctly which I posed was regarding the matter of what Christ did when he was in hell. Now you said "he kicked butt" Mntgal disagreed with your summation. I countered by saying that Christ released those formerly dead before his coming (the righteous) from captivity to eternal death which is probably what you meant. Now you came back with another explanation and I said that I still found it a bit confusing. I also stated that Christ triumphed over spiritual death. Here is another passage of scripture that supports that claim.

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[4] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison--"(1Peter:3)


I am sorry I donot have my commentary available but that is precisely what it says, that this verse 19, was taken to mean that Christ went down to hell and spoke deliverance to those who where dead.

I believe this taken in conjuction with Isaiah 42:7 in particular are quite within context both for the scripture and for the present discussion. As your commentary so correctly states it prophesies Christ's commission which was in part:

" to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness."

Now I brought this up only because you asked me to give scripture references. I also have a newer commentary than Matthew Henry which I will gladly bring back to the discussion which supports the above (I am away from home at the moment). At the same time bear in mind also that there are many commentaries out there and some have changed and give differing viewpoints since Matthew Henrys commentary which is older.

See also Matthew 27:52-53
"52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." This would seem to add validity to my position.

As to the other comment on Ephesians 4:7-9 you are quite possibly correct if you are going by that commentary, I would like to check the newer commentaries just to confirm that.

I just want to add here that since we are I hope of the same belief that there is in my mind to be no division between us. I have always strived to be supportive and encouraging of other believers. I am a firm believer that a house divided against itself cannot stand. I sincerely hope that you donot think that I am being offensive, but am in total agreement that the scriptures must be handled correctly in as much as we are able to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning each other, or searching the scriptures together to find an answer to a question of complexity, after all these things are commended by the word of God.
However since we are in a forum that thrives on heated debate, the Christians here have as far as I have known avoided debating with each other in such a manner as to portray an image of quarelling with eachother, not to give the opposition "fuel" so to speak. If you stick around you will shortly come to find out who those are. So with all that we do if we are children of the Most High let us do it peaceably and with brotherly love and kindness. If I portrayed differently to you please accept my apologies. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[jedi]

Re: Three Lost Days

Here is John Gills Exposition of Isaiah 42:

Verse 7. To open the blind eyes,.... Of the idolatrous Gentiles, who were spiritually blind, and knew not the wretchedness of their case; the exceeding sinfulness of sin; their need of a Saviour, and who he was; as they did, when their eyes were opened by means of the Gospel sent among them, through the energy of the divine Spirit; for this is a work of almighty power and efficacious grace:

to bring out the prisoners from the prison; who were concluded in sin, shut up in unbelief, and under the law, the captives of Satan, and held fast prisoners by him and their own lusts, under the dominion of which they were:

and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house: of sin, Satan, and the law; being under which, they were in a state of darkness and ignorance as to things divine and spiritual. The allusion is to prisons, which are commonly dark places. Vitringa, by the "prisoners," understands the Jews shut up under the law; and by those in "darkness" the Gentiles, destitute of all divine knowledge.

Although this version speaks of the living, I am still of the opinion that those who were dead former to his coming were included among those that were "shut up in prison" (eternally doomed).

[jedi]

Re: Three Lost Days

Here is the NLT commentary on 1 Peter 3:1-20
(Taken from the New Living Translation Commentary)

The meaning of preaching "to the spirits in prison" is not completely clear, and commentators have explained it in different ways. The traditional interpretation is that Christ, between his death and resurrection, announced salvation to God's faithful followers who had been waiting for their salvation during the whole Old Testament era. Matthew records that when Jesus died, "tombs opened. Many bodies of godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead after Jesus' resurrection. They left the cemetery, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people" (Matthew 27:52-53). A few commentators think that this passage says that Christ's Spirit was in Noah as Noah preached to those imprisoned by sin (but now in hell) Still others hold that Christ went to Hades to proclaim his victory and final condemnation to the fallen angels imprisoned there since Noah's day (see 2 Peter 2:4)

In any case, the passage shows that Christ's Good News of salvation and victory is not limited. It has been preached in the past as well as in the present; it has gone to the dead as well as to the living. God has given everyone the opportunity to come to him, but this does not imply a second chance for those who reject Christ in life.

[Diplomat]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]However since we are in a forum that thrives on heated debate, the Christians here have as far as I have known avoided debating with each other in such a manner as to portray an image of quarelling with eachother, not to give the opposition "fuel" so to speak. If you stick around you will shortly come to find out who those are. So with all that we do if we are children of the Most High let us do it peaceably and with brotherly love and kindness. If I portrayed differently to you please accept my apologies [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [/qb]

Hey, no harm done at all. I do not and would not participate in "quarelling", and as I stated, I found this particular discussion very respectful despite the differences.

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]Although this version speaks of the living, I am still of the opinion that those who were dead former to his coming were included among those that were "shut up in prison" (eternally doomed)[/qb]

OK...now I see the basis for our difference. As a writer, I use Gill, Henry, among others, in addition to a number of Bible Dictionaries but on this particular point, as I do not share the expressed opinion, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[fOrTyLeGz]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by Jedi:

I am still of the opinion that those who were dead former to his coming were included among those that were "shut up in prison" (eternally doomed).

Originally posted by Jedi:

The significance of Christs death cannot be undermined as He:

b)He was resurrected on the third day a thing that no one else had done so that it is said that He was the "First born from the dead.
He had done the impossible, he overcame the wall of separation between life and death. In otherwords He conquered death.

Matthew 27:51
....and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection (death actually) they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

This happens when Jesus dies on the cross. Not AFTER he rises from the dead three days later. Did these risen saints have to die again?

[jedi]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by fOrTyLeGz:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:

I am still of the opinion that those who were dead former to his coming were included among those that were "shut up in prison" (eternally doomed).

Originally posted by Jedi:

The significance of Christs death cannot be undermined as He:

b)He was resurrected on the third day a thing that no one else had done so that it is said that He was the "First born from the dead.
He had done the impossible, he overcame the wall of separation between life and death. In otherwords He conquered death.

Matthew 27:51
....and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection (death actually) they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

This happens when Jesus dies on the cross. Not AFTER he rises from the dead three days later. Did these risen saints have to die again?[/qb]

(((Forty)))the above quote used in conjuction with my statement was yours orignally don't get confused. (btw-that is an incorrect reference)

To answer you question "did these risen saints have to die agian?" my guess would be that they were in spiritual bodies and could not die again. The bible is not clear on that. As it stands the question still remains as to what Christ did when He descended into hell/sheol. The commentaries are divided on the question and unless the Bible specifically states a thing we are sort of left in a state of guessing. My gut feeling is that what CEW says is partially correct-that he Christ took the devils captive and on His resurrection made an open display of them. I have taken it to mean that He overcame spiritual death and released those formerly dead before His death from eternal damnation that is He removed the curse of death, thus making a mockery of satan and his angels. See my statement above with reference to the bible expostion on 1 Peter 3:18-20 and Matt.27:52-53.

What is certain is that He did overcome death and that through Him the way has been made clear for those who believe in Him to come to salvation. He has removed the curse of eternal death because of the curse of sin and the law for all time. Read further up. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[jedi]

Re: Three Lost Days

Here is something I found that seems to add a little more light to the question of what did Christ do in Hell:

FIRST PETER 3:15b-20a "Christ Preached To The Spirits In Prison. What Does This Mean?"

(Pastor Drew Worthen, Calvary Chapel Port Charlotte, Fl.)

1PET 3:18 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
19 through which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,..."

There's a lot here in these verses which we need to take careful note of. First, Peter brings in the suffering of Jesus and makes it clear that His suffering for the Father was not in vain. It had a purpose. Sometimes we lose sight of this in our lives. Trials and tribulations have a purpose and as we're willing to follow Christ He will use the circumstances in our lives to bring glory to His name.

In the case of Jesus, His suffering was designed to be for other people. And Peter tells us what kind of people these are; unrighteous people, which includes all mankind. We have no righteousness in ourselves to bring to God and lay at His feet to allow us entrance into His presence.

Only Christ's righteousness on our behalf will ever do. But it's precisely because of His righteousness that we have access to the Father. Notice that Peter says in verse 18, "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." That's the reason Christ came; to bring us to God as ones who are declared not guilty because of Christ's righteousness.

Peter then explains that this process of taking our penalty for sin involved the sinless Christ dying for sinful man, but he then shows how this same Jesus was raised from the dead. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit.

This doesn't mean He physically died but was raised only in the Spirit as though He were some sort of phantom. His physical body was laid in the tomb and His physical body was raised from the tomb.

In fact, we know that Jesus was raised with a body because on one occasion He had breakfast with His disciples. But this body was a body which was spiritual in nature, with none of the physical limitations our bodies have. And we know that one day we will receive a resurrected body like our Lord's.

1CO 15:42 "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."

The point Peter is making in our text is that Christ was resurrected by the power of the Spirit and is now contrasting His physical life, before the resurrection, with His post-resurrection existence.

It was the agency of the Holy Spirit which brought about the resurrection. And it was in the power of the Spirit, as well as His post-resurrection life, which enabled Jesus to go and make proclamation to the spirits in prison.

But the end of verse 19 has confused people over the years regarding our Lord's state between His death and resurrection and what He was doing during that time. Some have taken the position that what Jesus was doing was going down in the nether-world where the souls of men were located and that He preached the gospel to them and led them out as they accepted His payment for them.

Now whenever we come to a verse which seems a little confusing we must do a number of things. We must look at the context. We must look at other portions of Scripture which deal with similar teachings, and we must arrive at conclusions where the whole counsel of God's word is brought to bear on any particular area.

Now, in our text of 1Peter, the context has to do with suffering and living because we've been given life in the Spirit through faith in Christ. This life in Christ was brought about as a result of Christ dying in our place and then being raised to life.

That's the context and so for Peter to abruptly change gears and introduce something which has no relation to the context is to misunderstand the point of the passage. The point of the passage is not to teach about the intermediate state of the dead, but to comfort believers who have life in the Spirit.

How was he going to comfort them by relating Christ's death and subsequent resurrection? By showing Christ's victory over death and how that proclamation would verify the very work He was sent into the world to accomplish.

With that said let's go back to our text and look at this portion and ask some questions. The first question we might ask is who are these spirits? Do they belong to human beings or to fallen angels?

What do we know about these spirits? Well, we know that they are in prison, but where is this prison? When did Christ preach to them and what was His message? These are all legitimate questions which need to be answered before we decide what is being said.

Now, as I mentioned earlier, some believe that during those three days in the grave the Spirit of Jesus went and preached the gospel to these spirits. The problem with that is that the Greek language makes a connection between verse 18 and 19, which makes a contrast between being put to death in the flesh, and being made alive in the Spirit, in which He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison.

However, "In the Spirit" does not necessarily refer to the time between His death and resurrection. Dr. Kistemaker in his commentary on 1Peter makes the point that "scholars are of the opinion that the word body signifies Jesus' earthly life so the word spirit refers to His resurrected life. The term spirit, then, relates to the spiritual sphere of Christ's post-resurrection existence."

Dr. Heibert in his commentary quotes Mounce who asserts, "The point that Peter makes is that by means of the resurrection, Christ passes into a new and fuller life. Previously He had experienced the limitation of physical existence. Now He enjoys the freedom of a spiritual mode of existence."

Heibert then says, "the contrast is between Christ's death as a real man here on earth and His risen life as the glorified Lord. Flesh and spirit thus denote two successive spheres of existence of the incarnate Christ. Made alive in the spirit does not refer to Christ disembodied - the period between His death and resurrection."

And so to be made alive in the spirit, which is His resurrection, is the condition in which He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison.

But who are these spirits? Peter doesn't spell it out. But what's interesting is that he does not say the spirits of men. He simply says, spirits. We know these spirits are in prison and we know these spirits disobeyed long ago during the days of Noah. However, we are told some interesting things about spirits who are mentioned in other portions of scripture as it relates to prison.

In fact, Peter himself gives us a glimpse into what he was talking about here in our text as he explained in his second epistle to many of these same people.

He wrote in 2PE 2:4 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
9 ..... then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment."

Jude gives us some additional insight in Jude 1:6 "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home - these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

The idea of being bound with chains carries with it the idea of imprisonment. It doesn't necessarily mean physical chains but rather restraining. God has graciously restrained the activity of the demons in this world. It doesn't mean they have no influence it simply means that they cannot run rampant, and are still subject to God. That should encourage all of us.

We read in Luk.8:29 "For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.
30 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him.
31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss."

The abyss is a place of restraining where they could not pursue their demonic work, and it's a place of torment. The abyss and hell are the same place as you put 2Pet.2:4 along side of Luk.8:29-31.

We also see it in REV 9:1 "The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss."

Leading up to this judgment we read in REV 20:1 "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time."

REV 20:11 "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Hades is the place from which all rebels against God are taken and given up to be delivered into the Lake of Fire. Hades is the same as hell or the abyss. It is from this location that they are taken after the Great White Throne judgment. This final judgment places all rebels in the Lake of Fire forever with Satan as the ringleader.

So what does all of this have to do with Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison? The only spirits in prison who are identified as such are demons, but it would also include those who have died not trusting God for their salvation.

For this we go to LUK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In hell, (Greek Hades) where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"

This would also agree with what the writer of Hebrews said in HEB 9:27 "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

If this is the case then Jesus could not have been going to preach the gospel to these spirits with the idea of bringing them out of this place, since all who have rejected God die and a judgment ensues with their being placed in Hades or hell. There are no second chances after death.

Sometimes it's pointed out that there are these holding areas for all people which would include a special place for O.T. saints called Abraham's bosom or as the NIV puts it Abrahams side.

Again, the Scriptures make it clear that there are only two places, of either being in the presence of God or being separated from God. Regarding Abraham's bosom it must be pointed out a bosom doesn't imply a place of residence but being with Abraham at his side. And where was Abraham after his death?

HEB 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God."

What city is that? HEB 11:13 "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. (Ie. physical land promised)
16 Instead, they were longing for a better country - a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

Abraham died and went to the city whose architect and builder is God. He went to heaven to be with God and for anyone who died after him they would have gone to join Abraham at his side, which is Abrahams bosom. They went to heaven.

If Abraham's bosom were a place of residence in holding until heaven were opened up after Christ came then what happened to the saints before Abraham? Where did they go?

No, the saints of old understood that at death they went to be in the very presence of God. Listen to David. PSA 16:9 "Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure,
10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
11 You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

This psalm is certainly Messianic in nature, but it was also a real expectation for David when he wrote it. PSA 49:15 "But God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself. Selah"

PSA 73:23 "Yet I am always with you; you hold me by my right hand.
24 You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will take me into glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
26 My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever."

Of course we know that today if we die in Christ we will come face to face with our Savior. Paul says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." That's the hope we have in Christ. Those outside of Christ don't have that hope.

So, what was the message Christ brought to these spirits in prison? Well, we're not told specifically. What's interesting about this however is that the word preached, which is the way the NIV puts it, is the Greek word kerusso, which means to herald. The NAS uses the word proclamation.

Now the reason that this word is so interesting in our text is that this is not usually the word used to describe the proclamation of the gospel. In fact, the word used to describe the preaching of the gospel is the word euaggelizo which is where we get our English word evangelize.

This is the word Peter uses in 1PE 4:6 "For this is the reason the gospel was preached (euaggelizo) even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

Here in 1Pet.4:6 he's not talking about sharing the gospel with corpses in the grave, he's talking about those saints who are now dead, but who had the gospel preached to them and are now living in regard to the spirit, as they are with the Lord.

Why then, didn't Peter use the same word "preach" (euaggelizo) for Jesus when He went to the spirits in prison in 1Pet.3:19? In all likelihood it was not because He was going to share the gospel with demons or with those who willfully disobeyed as in the days of Noah to bring them into paradise, but to (kerusso) herald His victory over the grave and demonstrate that He is the King of kings and Lord of lords.

COL 2:13 "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

Christ heralded his victory to these rebellious spirits. He demonstrated that He has disarmed the powers and authorities and made a public spectacle of them. He promised Satan back in the Garden of Eden that He would crush his head and destroy the power of sin and death. He has come through with His promise and has heralded that even among the authorities and powers He overcame.

It is appointed for men to die once and then they are judged. These spirits in prison, spoken of in our text, are there because of their rebellion. They do not get a second chance of receiving the gospel. But Christ is the One who is heralding His victory and making a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

If this is the sense in which Jesus went to the spirits in prision then Satan and his followers get to see the victorious Lord up close and personal and to understand in no uncertain terms that there is only One Lord, One God and One Savior of men, the man Christ Jesus who has fulfilled His promise made back in the Garden of Eden to send a Savior born of a woman who would crush the head of Satan.

I would say at this point that the idea of Jesus going to speak to these spirits in prison in a literal sense is not the only explanation for this passage. Some have taken it to mean that Jesus, in the Spirit, or through the agency of the Spirit, spoke to those who were formerly disobedient during Noah's days and gave them an opportunity to heed Noah's proclamation, and be saved from the flood.

This is entirely possible, but to suggest that Jesus Christ is not free to move within His own created spiritual sphere, even the sphere of spirits who were formerly disobedient in the days of Noah, after He paid our debt on the cross and rose from the dead, is to not allow Jesus to be God over all His creation.

Some of these passages can be difficult to understand but one thing which is not difficult to understand about this passage is that Jesus Christ has conquered death and sin and He has made proclamation with His resurrection from the dead.

Christ's victory is our victory and this is the point Peter is making to these suffering Christians. 'I have overcome the grave and you are more than conquerors in Me. Take heart, I am alive and you are My people to enjoy My fellowship forever more.'

1Cor.15:54 "When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

May we exclaim with David: PSA 17:15 "And I - in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness.
18:1 I love you, O LORD, my strength.
2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold."

[Diplomat]

Re: Three Lost Days

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]Here is something I found that seems to add a little more light to the question of what did Christ do in Hell:

FIRST PETER 3:15b-20a "Christ Preached To The Spirits In Prison. What Does This Mean?"

(Pastor Drew Worthen, Calvary Chapel Port Charlotte, Fl.) ....Why then, didn't Peter use the same word "preach" (euaggelizo) for Jesus when He went to the spirits in prison in 1Pet.3:19? In all likelihood it was not because He was going to share the gospel with demons or with those who willfully disobeyed as in the days of Noah to bring them into paradise, but to (kerusso) herald His victory over the grave and demonstrate that He is the King of kings and Lord of lords.

COL 2:13 "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

Christ heralded his victory to these rebellious spirits. He demonstrated that He has disarmed the powers and authorities and made a public spectacle of them. He promised Satan back in the Garden of Eden that He would crush his head and destroy the power of sin and death. He has come through with His promise and has heralded that even among the authorities and powers He overcame... [/qb]

Amen! Excellent piece, and one that reflects my convictions on the issue.

[Mutty]

Re: Three Lost Days

Interesting Jedi for two reasons. One, that the pastor is from a Calvary Chapel on the west coast of Florida. I go to one here on the east coast of Florida. Secondly, in your reply, you included a scripture I actually had a post created for but deleted. That is the scripture in I Peter 3:19.

Now I have presented an exposition on Genesis 6 which a few people did not agree with. In fact, my interpretation may have sounded far fetched; incredulous if you will, but you will be suprised how many biblical scholars actually agree with the findings I have. Later on I went on to elaborate on the Book of Enoch (I Enoch) and its actual benefits to understanding New Testament theology. Of course a red flag went up because it is not often found in our western Bibles. However, the Ethiopian Church maintains the book and has maintained the book since whenever. Rome had a problem with the book. Pretty much the same problems our sensitive western minds have. This despite the fact the book was revered in the time of Christ, quoted from, and much of its language was used in the New Testament. Copies of the book were also found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls proving it's antiquity.

In any event, the scripture in I Peter 3:19 is actually a repitition of or at least has I Enoch 12:24 in mind. It reads:

Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves 5 wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness 6 of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, the murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain."

To give some background (Genesis 6 skips a lot of details). 200 angels (Watchers) were given authority to watch over the earth. As men multiplied and the earth increased in female population, these angels lusted after them and came to earth and took them as wives (this is where Genesis 6 begins and where numerous ancient myths and legends also come in). These divine beings taught men "forbidden knowledge" reserved for heaven, knowledge men were not equipped to handle and would only use for evil and corrupt themselves with unheard of evils. The crossbreeding union also produced powerful beings (called "giants" in Genesis 6 or "men of renown") which gave basis to the hero gods of ancient literature. The children of the union eventually began to create havoc on the earth coupled with the perverse knowledge men had aquired "from the gods who came down" or the Nephilims...those who fell from heaven.

Genesis skips over the details of the evil that was going on and only sums it up by saying the imagination of man was corrupted to only one gear - constant evil. However, the book of Enoch elaborates on the details. For this grave sin, God pronounced judgment upon these "fallen angels" and their offspring. The archangel Michael was ordered to round all of them (just the angels) up and bind them in a place of torment known in the Greek as Tartarus which has become synonymous with the word "hell." The scripture referring to hell as being a place initially created for Satan and his angels comes to mind. In fear, the angels called upon Enoch to mediate for them (the book of Enoch sheds light on the biblical account that Enoch "walked with God" because it shows Enoch was a pretty busy man who was actually shown mysteries). Enoch went to God on behalf of the angels but their petition was rejected and Enoch was told to go back and preach to these spirits in prison. It was NOT a preaching of a second chance but a preaching of their utter and eternal destruction. Later on the Great Flood rid the earth of their far reaching corruptions.

So when Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison, he was simply reiterating the judgments. Their work in the days of Noah and prior was to avert the promises of God by corrupting man beyond redemption hence preventing the need for Jesus and making God a liar. They obviously failed and Jesus preached to them his victory over their futile attempts. Note very carefully that the particular spirits he preached to are linked to a particular period...Noah's time. These were the "angles that sinned" (II Peter 2:4) and those who "kept not their first estate" (Jude 6). Note in both sciptures these beings are said to be reserved in chains which confirms Enoch's account as read here:

...' And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go,
bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves
with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all
their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one
another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved
ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys
of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their
consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever
is consummated. - Enoch chapter 10

[jedi]

Re: Three Lost Days

Well (((CEW))) see I am willing to be open minded about this, and thanks (((Mutty))) for that explanation, now I only have one question that is bugging me. The question of Matt.27:52-53 can either of you guys clarify that for me. You see I have never heard of that particular angle on the subject. I have always heard preached that He Jesus went down to hell and loosed those who were formerly dead but had died in rightousness and awaited His coming to release them from eternal death pretty much granting salvation the same as for the living. Now there is mention above that those who died prior to His coming went directly to heaven, that opens a whole new can of worms in my mind. Any thoughts either of you?

[Mutty]

Re: Three Lost Days

I won't even pretend to know what that was all about. The only thing I can think of was that it was just a symbolic representation of what the resurrection was and is all about.