WHY do they teach that ...

**servant** · 12-17-2002, 03:59 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Fledgist; ”If you are questioning my honesty, I'll thank you to do it to my face.”

As one of several here who have had their honesty questioned by you, all without the courtesy you now wish to have extended in your direction, let me say this.....don't hold your breath.

Slither for cover all you want under your "How dare you?" response. This feeble attempt to deflect guilt is chracteristically transparent and sophomoric.

Here’s a little advice for the next time you are tripped up by your own words : this response works best when there's some actual ambiguity involved.

WW, that Latinos or Asians for that matter, may make up a significant part of the population in some inner cities notwithstanding, the point is that they are all racial minorities. And speaking of what the point is, your statement that it is "racist (of anyone) to blanket-statement call "ALL young Black males" (or ANY OTHER group) ANYTHING!!" is exactly what I am driving at. Fledgist would have us believe that the term "Inner city youth" merely refers to "a generation".

This from a man who questions the honesty of other posters.

**Mutty** · 12-17-2002, 04:58 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Originally posted by Fledgist:

If so, I apologise.

However, you need to explain a long tradition of interpreting it exactly thus.

-----------------------------------------------
From Mutty:

No prob.

Now I am not sure where and when this idea started that God cursed Ham and thus black people. You've got me there. All I know it had to have begun with someone who simply disliked black people and found this as a great tool to use even though the scripture is VERY clear about what went on.

Now you and Servant can begin the fistacuffs. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

**kthydvs** · 12-17-2002, 05:59 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Black people descend from Cush not Canaan. "The sons of cush were seba and havilah and sabtah and raamah and sabteca" (Gen.19:6,7). later references to cush are usually equivalent to ethiopia. seba is later used when referring to another prople in the eatern part of africa and evidently close to ethiopia Isiah 43:3.

The idea the Black people are cursed comes from the misinterpretation of Genesis 9:25 where Noah is quoted as saying "cursed be canaan. let him become the lowest slave to his brother". It says nothing about skin colour. the curse was evidently because Ham's son canaan had performed some shocking act deserving of a curse. Canaan's descendents were lighter-skinned people living to the east of the mediterranean sea. because of their depraved practices, demonistic rites, idolatry and child sacrifices, they came under divine judgement and God gave to Israel the land occupied by the canaanites (Gen.10:15-19). not all the canaanites were destroyed; some were put at forced labour, in fulfillment of the curse Josh. 17:13

**Mutty** · 12-17-2002, 06:36 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Originally posted by Kumba:
[qb]Black people descend from Cush not Canaan. "The sons of cush were seba and havilah and sabtah and raamah and sabteca" (Gen.19:6,7). later references to cush are usually equivalent to ethiopia. seba is later used when referring to another prople in the eatern part of africa and evidently close to ethiopia Isiah 43:3.

The idea the Black people are cursed comes from the misinterpretation of Genesis 9:25 where Noah is quoted as saying "cursed be canaan. let him become the lowest slave to his brother". It says nothing about skin colour. the curse was evidently because Ham's son canaan had performed some shocking act deserving of a curse. Canaan's descendents were lighter-skinned people living to the east of the mediterranean sea. because of their depraved practices, demonistic rites, idolatry and child sacrifices, they came under divine judgement and God gave to Israel the land occupied by the canaanites (Gen.10:15-19). not all the canaanites were destroyed; some were put at forced labour, in fulfillment of the curse Josh. 17:13[/qb]

Thank you!

**wonbyone** · 12-17-2002, 06:41 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Thank you, Kumba. It is great to see people reading and learning instead of taking what others say as "gosple". Pardon the pun.

The unexpected twist to people checking things out for themselves is that instead of detracting from the writings in the bible we are able to learn. It also shows that we are not as "impressionable" as some would say. Of course by definition impressionable means that we are easily impressed, influenced or molded.

An interesting point on Ethiopia is that it is not the same Ethiopia that we envision in modern times. Ethiopia is the Greek name for the ancient nation south of Egypt, comprising the upper Nile region of Africa which includes part of the Sudan. Cush is its Hebrew name. Todays Ethiopia (Abyssina) is in the horn of east Africa.

Perhaps the reason for the racial implications is the bible passage that says that the people were tall with smooth skin that could not be changed (Is. 18:7 and Jer. 13:23). The reference was to not being able to change ones ways. The passage in Jeremiah says " Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?". We often use the same phrase today sometimes substituteing "can a tiger change its stripes?".

**dahjah** · 12-17-2002, 07:58 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Nice Kumba once agaim mi like yuh reasoning.

Still mi neh si how ppl believe dat de tree sons are of a different race as taught by many ministers.

I still stand by this as it is writen in simple english with no need to read between any lines:-->

Genesis 5:32
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

This is why they are triplets--> he was 500 years old, you can only be 500 for one year and he begat these three in the same year.

**kthydvs** · 12-17-2002, 08:17 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Reading that same scripture in Genesis 5:32 it says "And Noah got to be five hundred years old. After that Noah became father to Shem, Ham and Japheth". The record shows that Noah reached 500 yrs of age in 2470BCE and the deluge came about in his 600th year. Already married at the time of the flood (Gen:6:18) Shem is stated to have fathered his first son, Arpachshad, two years after the flood when he (Shem) was 100 years old. This would mean that Shem was born when Noah was 502 yrs old (2468BCE) and since Ham appears to be referred to as the youngest son (Gen9;24), Japheth would logically be the first born son to Noah, when he was 500 yrs old.

**fOrTyLeGz** · 12-17-2002, 08:43 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Tim and Witchy, you all do a good job presenting your picture of what happened there in that family so long ago. But Ham didn't tell everyone, he only told his brothers.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

How could Noah know (on waking) that Ham had told his brothers, and so also know "what his younger son had done unto him.(?)"

And, even so, is it a reasonable response that Noah then said "(25), Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."?
He should have apologized, and thanked his sons for covering him. but he got furious!

**Fledgist** · 12-17-2002, 08:48 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Originally posted by servant:
[qb]Fledgist; ”If you are questioning my honesty, I'll thank you to do it to my face.”

As one of several here who have had their honesty questioned by you, all without the courtesy you now wish to have extended in your direction, let me say this.....don't hold your breath.

{Fledgist: Frankly, this sudden access of virginity is less than amusing. Your lack of honour is palpable.}

Slither for cover all you want under your "How dare you?" response. This feeble attempt to deflect guilt is chracteristically transparent and sophomoric.

{Fledgist: Nice try.}

Here’s a little advice for the next time you are tripped up by your own words : this response works best when there's some actual ambiguity involved.

WW, that Latinos or Asians for that matter, may make up a significant part of the population in some inner cities notwithstanding, the point is that they are all racial minorities. And speaking of what the point is, your statement that it is "racist (of anyone) to blanket-statement call "ALL young Black males" (or ANY OTHER group) ANYTHING!!" is exactly what I am driving at. Fledgist would have us believe that the term "Inner city youth" merely refers to "a generation".

This from a man who questions the honesty of other posters.[/qb]

You are, pretty directly, lying about what I have said, and seeking to tar me with your own brush. I find that pretty disgusting (and I find your 'comparison' of me to that fellow-Christian of yours, Trent Lott, even more disgusting.

You are trying, with complete dishonesty, to make a matter of taste one of racism. That is fundamentally dishonest, and reinforces my view that Christians lack all honour. After all, it takes a great deal of chutzpah for someone belonging to a religion forced on his enslaved ancestors to then turn around and pose as the defender of inner city youth.

If you have a reply, you can make it to my face.

**Fledgist** · 12-17-2002, 08:50 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Originally posted by Mutty - The return:
[qb]Originally posted by Fledgist:

If so, I apologise.

However, you need to explain a long tradition of interpreting it exactly thus.

-----------------------------------------------
From Mutty:

No prob.

Now I am not sure where and when this idea started that God cursed Ham and thus black people. You've got me there. All I know it had to have begun with someone who simply disliked black people and found this as a great tool to use even though the scripture is VERY clear about what went on.

Now you and Servant can begin the fistacuffs. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

You mean he tells lies, and then seeks to avoid the consequences?

**jedi** · 12-17-2002, 08:59 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

If you have a reply, you can make it to my face.

How about the Madison Square Gardens Arena then all of Jam. Com can come and spectate [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

**Mutty** · 12-17-2002, 09:01 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Originally posted by King dahjah:
[qb]Nice Kumba once agaim mi like yuh reasoning.

Still mi neh si how ppl believe dat de tree sons are of a different race as taught by many ministers.

I still stand by this as it is writen in simple english with no need to read between any lines:-->

Genesis 5:32
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

This is why they are triplets--> he was 500 years old, you can only be 500 for one year and he begat these three in the same year.[/qb]

If they are not the fathers of the various races of people, then where did all these races of people come from Dahjah? The Bible clearly tells us, in fact, goes out of its way to tell us who there sons were and we have history to point us to the areas where these sons settled and populated. If after the Flood there were no people upon the earth and Japheth had a son by the name of Magog, FOR EXAMPLE, and that son settled around the Black Sea and his other sons settled west of that which would be modern Europe, it would stand to reason that the people who live there now who can trace their roots back to that area would be a race of people descended from Japheth. You can them apply the same logic to Ham and Shem's sons.

Take a look here, ok?

http://hammer.prohosting.com/~victorm/shemhamjapheth.html

**Fledgist** · 12-17-2002, 09:08 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]If you have a reply, you can make it to my face.

How about the Madison Square Gardens Arena then all of Jam. Com can come and spectate [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

YOu can come to my house, and tell me what you think of me to my face. Of course, you won't.

**fOrTyLeGz** · 12-17-2002, 09:13 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Tim and Witchy, you all do a good job presenting your picture of what happened there in that family so long ago. But Ham didn't tell everyone, he only told his brothers.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

How could Noah know (on waking) that Ham had told his brothers, and so also know "what his younger son had done unto him.(?)"

And, even so, is it a reasonable response that Noah then said "(25), Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."?
He should have apologized, and thanked his sons for covering him. but he got furious!

**jedi** · 12-17-2002, 09:22 PM

Re: WHY do they teach that ...

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Jedi:
[qb]If you have a reply, you can make it to my face.

How about the Madison Square Gardens Arena then all of Jam. Com can come and spectate [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/qb]

YOu can come to my house, and tell me what you think of me to my face. Of course, you won't.[/qb]

Of course not--if anyone is going anywhere it is you the challenger. Plus there is travelling costs involved, cheapskate. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] -

( anywayz this is a nice post soh mi naw mash it up wid yuh. Gallang back goh fite servant)

Sorry DJ [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

WHY do they teach that ...

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