Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by TG:
Oh Fledge Portia was returned first reclaiming ground from Peter, that means the next PNP President will be a woman the next Prime Minister of Jamaica might be a woman.

[qb]Originally posted by Fledgist:
Just wait till PJ steps down, and the core of the PNP shows Portia what they think of her! [/qb]

I am sure you have heard about the new region 7 involving Paul Burke, I wonder who they will back. They came out strongly against what they called the West Kingston effect, yet it is been built around your friend Omar, Paul Burke, Ronnie Twit, men who cannot say they have not delve into the Garrison type Politricks.

{Fledgist: I have a lot of respect for Paul. His mother -- for whom I have even more respect -- brought him up right. OTOH, Paul is as involved as anyone else in politics as usual.}

Heard about PJoke's new gaff?
What for it I will post it when it comes out in print.

[/qb]

He confused Stalin and Mussolini again? [/qb]

No he was complaining about the lack of disrespect being shown to him.... he then launch into a speech to tell the faithful gathered in the Arena what he should be respected for:

I give more people land
I build more houses
More people graduate from school today
More people have cell phone
More people have car
....and more man have gal!

Of course I was waiting for him to say more man have more man!

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

....and more man have gal!

That's right up there with B-R-E-D-A and "Wi don't come fe bow and scrape".

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb]

....and more man have gal!

That's right up there with B-R-E-D-A and "Wi don't come fe bow and scrape". [/qb]

You mean right down there. He prefaced this delivery of nonsense with, I am a humble man and man of humility, first off he is not quite a man and secondly the laundry list of supposed accomplishment the he rolled off does not demonstrate anything but bragging. It is also filled with half-truths, sexism and outright lies.

[e. luce]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

More people have cell phone
More people have car
....and more man have gal!

Ah, yes these are the things that make any country great...please tell me he's kidding.

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by westcoastlioness 2:
[qb]

More people have cell phone
More people have car
....and more man have gal!

Ah, yes these are the things that make any country great...please tell me he's kidding. [/qb]

He has withdrawn his remarks. He held a press conference where he withdrew the remarks, he said he was misunderstood.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by westcoastlioness 2:
[qb]

More people have cell phone
More people have car
....and more man have gal!

Ah, yes these are the things that make any country great...please tell me he's kidding. [/qb]

Westcoaslion, stats of that type are used as indicators of the extent and rate of technological development and technology diffusion. They are a basis for comparing the development of various countries.

I had collected some data for Jamaica and was about to collect for the other countries when this thread was ABRUPTLY moved. Here is the data for Jamaica. I will post the data for the other 4 countries later this evening:


Human development index trend


Human Development Index, 1975 0.690
Human Development Index, 1980 0.693
Human Development Index, 1985 0.695
Human Development Index, 1990 0.723
Human Development Index, 1995 0.736
Human Development Index, 2001 0.757

Infrastructure

Jamaica

Telephone mainlines and cellular subscribers (per 100 people), 1990 4.5

Telephone mainlines and cellular subscribers (per 100 people), 2001 44.9

Sri Lanka

Telephone mainlines and cellular subscribers (per 100 people), 1990 0.7

Telephone mainlines and cellular subscribers (per 100 people), 2001 8.0

-------

Jamaica

Telephone mainlines (per 1,000 people), 1990 45

Telephone mainlines (per 1,000 people), 2001 205

Sri Lanka

Telephone mainlines (per 1,000 people), 1990 7

Telephone mainlines (per 1,000 people), 2001 44

Priorities in Public Spending

Jamaica

Total debt service (as % of GDP), 1990 14.4
Total debt service (as % of GDP), 2001 8.3

Sri Lanka

Total debt service (as % of GDP), 1990 4.8
Total debt service (as % of GDP), 2001 4.5

-----

EDUCATION

Jamaica

Public expenditure on education (as % of GDP), 1990 4.7
Public expenditure on education (as % of GDP), 1998-2000 6.3 6

Sri Lanka

Public expenditure on education (as % of GDP), 1990 2.6
Public expenditure on education (as % of GDP), 1998-2000 3.1

Distribution of Wealth Jamaica


Share of income or consumption (%) - Poorest 10% 2.7
Share of income or consumption (%) - Poorest 20% 6.7

Sri Lanka

Share of income or consumption (%) - Poorest 10% 3.5
Share of income or consumption (%) - Poorest 20% 8.0

Jamaica

Share of income or consumption (%) - Richest 20% 46.0
Share of income or consumption (%) - Richest 10% 30.3

Sri Lanka

Share of income or consumption (%) - Richest 20% 42.8
Share of income or consumption (%) - Richest 10% 28.0

----

Jamaica
Inequality measures - Ratio of richest 10% to poorest 10% 11.4
Inequality measures - Ratio of richest 20% to poorest 20% 6.9

Sri Lanka

Inequality measures - Ratio of richest 10% to poorest 10% 7.9
Inequality measures - Ratio of richest 20% to poorest 20% 5.3



Tuff Gong, as we can see Jamaica HAS grown in a number of areas. We'll have the data to compare Jamaica's data to the other countries shortly.

The site has a lot of other indicators check it out. Feel free to continue without me and post any stats that grab you.

Jamaica

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_JAM.html

Malaysia

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_MYS.html

Singapore

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_SGP.html

Sri Lanka

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_LKA.html

Barbados

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_BRB.html

To show you what the bottom of the heap looks like:

Sierra
Leonehttp://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_SLE.html

Niger

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/cty_f_NER.html

Just as an aside, I am surprised that Jamaica is ranked lower than Mexico in a lot of these listings. When I went to Acapulco in the 1980s, one would see whole families including babies sleeping on the street in front of the poshes hotels. Now maybe this has changed, I don't know. I have never seen conditions like that in Jamaica. Any boardites who have been to places like Bombay can testify to the fact that we ain't seen nothing yet in terms of poverty. I'll share a story about that when I get back.

Jamaica has it's problems but we really need to put things into perspective in terms of global development.

Will add more info about other countries tomorrow. Good night.

[Wardob]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

After been away from the board for a while, it is good to return and find such an excellent and edifying topic, and if I might say so well done Tropicana and I hope it (the topic) will be placed in the Archives

Tuff, it’s good to see you are back at your best
I know you do not need my endorsement on what you have written in this or any other post, but I must tell you, you have done a great job explaining where we are and what got us there.
But I must say your explanation and factual account of the Manley era is excellent and well written and not because of my know politics but simple because what you wrote is first hand knowledge, you were there, no one told you so, you saw it, you felt it and more important you wrote the truth

It would be great to sit back and read the continuation of dialogue between you and Dr. as Dr have state some facts that no one cannot deny (not even me), no one can disagree with and I quote Dr:-

“He simply wanted to change the world economic policies, that forces countries like Jamaica to supply raw materials to developed countries at almost nothing.
Jamaica was supplying Bauxite at 10c US per ton then Norman Manley raised it to US$5 per ton.
Then the companies would short report the tonnage. This was only one aspect of the sort of underhanded act by the companies that controlled our resources.”

So there it is the two sides of Michael Manley.

Statement such as that made by the PM is not unusual at conference, they are used to excite the crowd, remember Mass Hugh saying?

“ If a man go to im bed an im woman say, im na get nothing tonite, im say a Shearer fault”

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Wardob:
[qb] It would be great to sit back and read the continuation of dialogue between you and Dr. as Dr have state some facts that no one cannot deny (not even me), no one can disagree with and I quote Dr:-

“He simply wanted to change the world economic policies, that forces countries like Jamaica to supply raw materials to developed countries at almost nothing.
Jamaica was supplying Bauxite at 10c US per ton then Norman Manley raised it to US$5 per ton.
Then the companies would short report the tonnage. This was only one aspect of the sort of underhanded act by the companies that controlled our resources.”

So there it is the two sides of Michael Manley.[/qb]

There was no dialogue. I am sure you meant Michael Manley and not Norman Manley. I never quarreled with the statement above. I wasn't an advocate for the Bauxite Companies, if they were lying about tonnage then measures should be taken against them. Did these measures include casting all businessmen as crooks, like Manley did?

Where I lived there was nowhere else in Jamaica that so many Chinese Grocery Shops were concentrated when Manley came to power and started ranting against the businessman thugs came from all over to harass them. Eventually they moved from selling stuff behind barriers to leaving entirely.

So while he wanted fairer world trade he did not mind destroying internal trade and marginalizing people based on race and class.
Most of Menlie promsises was populist programs that were ill researched. Most could, should or was not implemented properly.

Have DR Dudd ever tried discussing any subjects on this Board where we are not entirely in agreement with him.
So I suppose that Singapore is a fascist country and Barbados is racist right?

[qb]Statement such as that made by the PM is not unusual at conference, they are used to excite the crowd, remember Mass Hugh saying?

“ If a man go to im bed an im woman say, im na get nothing tonite, im say a Shearer fault” [/qb]

This is quite different from the Sexist statements that paint women as a chattel of men that he PJoke have the power to give to them.

He caused more Man fi have Gal.
Added to the fact that he distributed more scarce goods and spoils.

Answer this question as well in the face his so-called values and attitudes program.
The furor over the child abuse, child neglect, and idiots like Ernie Smith and Sharon Hay-Webster making fools of themselves about the events surrounding the neglect of children’s homes, would a thinking person make such a statement in present day Jamaica?

[Tuff Gong]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tropicana:
[qb] Jamaica has it's problems but we really need to put things into perspective in terms of global development.[/qb]

This is the mantra the ones among us who want to accept mediocrity. Consider your statement above what direction do we now turn when we accept that we have some problems and why worry everyone have similar problems.

Phillip Paulwell Ministry of Commerce, Science and Technology said that Jamaica is hostile to investors.

Today the murder rate moved to 702, seven more that this time last year. (One of those murders today involved an instrument of progress the cell phone).

Two Journalists from Fox News was in Jamaica doing a Special on the Sniper.
Scotland Yard plus media from Britain was in Jamaica investigating a murder of the 7-year-old Jamaican girl recently.

Add that to the rest of the historic political and social problems how can we rise up out of our problems continuing on our present path and with the kind of thinking that says everyone have problems, we are not alone.

Shouldn't it be we are not concerned with the world’s problems?
Shouldn’t we be saying, the world events must modulate our responses to our problems but essentially we intend to deal with our problems irrespective of what is going on in the world?

That is why it is dangerous just look at raw stats in a vacuum.
For instance every development have an opportunity cost. What it the opportunity costs of the individual owning cars, cell, phones, driving on new highways and graduating from Universities?
What was held back, what was advanced, what are the benefits accuring from these advances?

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Tuff Gong, I posted those stats because you had objected to the term "Growing Pains" and asked "where is the growth?" I wanted to demonstrate that there has been growth in many areas. There have also been some areas in which we have fallen behind.

Please show me where I have said or even IMPLIED that we are to accept mediocrity. Accepting the fact that we have some serious problems AND so do some other countries AND we are better off than many is NOT the same thing as accepting mediocrity and not worrying about our problems. We are not even in the bottom half when it comes to our ranking in the HDI index. That should tell you something. According to UNESCO stats that I posted before, we are actually doing better than a lot of developing countries. I will try and find those stats again. It just helps put things in perspective. We are NOT the worst nation on earth and FAR from the bottom of the barrel in terms of the living conditions we provide (or fail to provide) for our citizens. Travel to Mumbai (Bombay) for one hour and you'll see EXACTLY what I am talking about.

The place was SO run down and people were living in these...don't even know what to call them, tents all over the place in front of the high rises. These were really low so one had to stoop down to enter. I think I have some photos.

Anyway, I thought "surely there must be some nice areas" so I said to my colleague when we were en-route to an appointment "we've seen a lot of one side of Mumbai, when we are coming back can we take another route and see the other side of town. She responded "Oh no, we couldn't do that. The other side of town is really run down." I nearly fainted because I couldn't picture anything worse than what I had already seen. It was worse than ANYTHING I had ever seen in Jamaica and I have been to some pretty roung parts of Kingston.

So what is my point? I think we have got to stop running down our country as if it's the worst place on earth. It isn't. We need to face our problems (such as the escalating violence and skyrocketing murder rate) head on and attempt to resolve them. BUT, we ALSO need to remember that there has been much improvement compared to how our forebearers lived. We must learn to count our blessings because we do have them in abundance. Look at how quickly the country recovered from Gilbert...I am talking the land the trees, etc. I visited a cousin way up in the hills of St. Mary and she described to us what things were like in that aread after Gilbert. All of the trees and vegetation had come back so nicely, one would never have known of the devastation that was there a few years earlier. Now if this isn't a blessing, I don't know what is.

I have posted stats to show areas that have actually improved over the years. One figure that would be telling is the extent of rural electrification. I remember a time when my grandmother's house had no electricity or indoor plumbing. My son's grandfather on his father's side only got those conveniences in the 1980s if memory serves me correctly...bottom line...he now has them. Yes, we face some HUGE challenges, but, we have also made some HUGE strides. From what I have seen in my travels, things could be a LOT worse. It's a HUGE wake up call that we need to take SWIFT action as things COULD get a lot worse.

[Wahalla]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Love these strides...

We are world class in debt..
We top the league in murder
we are up there in pesticide residues in produced food..
we have made great strides in enviromental protection
We equal Ethopia in per capital car deaths
We have increase the number of roads...and miles of electric cable...

Frankly quality of life seems to have consistently fallen year on year.., There is more cars on the road

Oh and literasy has improved or was Jamal a failure....

But then I am born negative

[Fledgist]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by Fledgist:
[qb]

Originally posted by Tuff Gong:
[qb]

Originally posted by TG:
Oh Fledge Portia was returned first reclaiming ground from Peter, that means the next PNP President will be a woman the next Prime Minister of Jamaica might be a woman.

[qb]Originally posted by Fledgist:
Just wait till PJ steps down, and the core of the PNP shows Portia what they think of her! [/qb]

I am sure you have heard about the new region 7 involving Paul Burke, I wonder who they will back. They came out strongly against what they called the West Kingston effect, yet it is been built around your friend Omar, Paul Burke, Ronnie Twit, men who cannot say they have not delve into the Garrison type Politricks.

{Fledgist: I have a lot of respect for Paul. His mother -- for whom I have even more respect -- brought him up right. OTOH, Paul is as involved as anyone else in politics as usual.}

Heard about PJoke's new gaff?
What for it I will post it when it comes out in print.

[/qb]

He confused Stalin and Mussolini again? [/qb]

No he was complaining about the lack of disrespect being shown to him.... he then launch into a speech to tell the faithful gathered in the Arena what he should be respected for:

I give more people land
I build more houses
More people graduate from school today
More people have cell phone
More people have car
....and more man have gal!

Of course I was waiting for him to say more man have more man! [/qb]

I dunno. I used to know a young lady whom PJ was sweet on. But this was decades ago.

[Tropicana]

Re: Post Independence Cross Country Comparisons

Moderators, if possible, please preserve this thread on the main board for a while longer. I want to do some more work on it. Thanks.