Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

[Dr.Dudd]

Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja
published: Wednesday | November 2, 2005

Petrina Francis, Education Reporter

A MAJORITY of Jamaicans think parliamentarians should deliver their speeches in Gordon House in the local dialect, patois in order to communicate better with the public.

This is according to an islandwide survey, which was conducted recently by the Jamaica Language Unit at The University of the West Indies, Mona.

According to the findings of the survey, "people who understand English will understand patwa (patois) but not vice versa",

"Piipl no tuu ondastan di spiiki spoki ... Most Jamaicans speak patwa," said a respondent from an eastern parish.

One thousand men and women between the ages of 18 and 80 plus years, from rural and urban centres across Jamaica were surveyed.

When asked whether or not Jamaican (patois) was a language 80 per cent of respondents agreed. A further, 69 per cent felt it should be made an official language of Jamaica alongside English and 71 per cent of the population would like to have bilingual schools.

According to the Language Unit, "79 per cent of Jamaicans polled declared themselves speakers of both Jamaican and English, thereby recognising the bilingual nature of the language situation in the country". There was little variation in responses across all age groups.

Only 10.9 per cent and 10.5 per cent respectively of the entire population polled declared themselves to be speakers of English only or Jamaican only. Slightly more women (11.8 per cent) than men (10.0 per cent) declared themselves to be speakers of English only.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

This is so illogical,it is not funny.
Since they include stats that shows that only 10% of Jamaicans speak Patois only,how is this logical?
Are they going to justify the use of a language that will benefit that 10%. People who speak pnly patois (which I doubt) can't read (because education is done in english)
Would it be better to teach these people to read,and solve the problem of them not understanding english?
This is one more reason why common sense should not be use to make these important decision,and surveys are usually popularty of a topic judged ny common sense.

[barosa]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Couldn't agree with you more Doc. If "people who understand ENGLISH will understand PATWA (patois) but not vice versa", then why is it even being discussed as a possibility. unless the purpose is to isolate Jamaicans from the rest of the English speaking world... It is shortsighted to have these surveys giving them answers that knew in advance they'd get. There is a place for "Jamaican Patwa" but ENGLISH must be taught and encouraged to be spoken, even if we get some "speakie spokie" in so doing.

Officially, Jamaica is an English speaking country. A fact that we should be grateful for, since every other language group on the planet is learning it so they can benefit from its widespread acceptability as the language of business, commerce, technology and besides, it is the most universally spoken... Why would they even want to mislead Jamaica's population that they could get by without learning even the rudiments of proper English?

----------------
In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

I disagree.

Making patois an official language doesn't mean that english is going to disappear. Jamaica isn't necesarily going to become mono-lingual. Look at Puerto Rico (where both Spanish and English are official but most people speak Spanish) and Haiti (where both French and Kreole are official). Puerto Rico has been a US dependency for since 1898 so why do they still speak spanish in the main? Because it's part of their culture and history and they are proud of it.

It don't think the fact that only Jamaicans speak Jamaican is reason enough to speak of our language with disdain. Nowhere speaks Swedish but Sweden. Nowhere speaks Finnish but Finland. Nowhere speaks Welsh but Wales. Nowhere speaks Irish but Ireland. The fact that only we speak Jamaican is no need to eradicate it unless we hate ourselves. We can gain the benefits of english literacy while having a healthy respect for our local tongue.

Remember, the only languages that have proliferated are those with powerful armies behind them. Latin spread and gave birth to French, Portuguese, Romanian and Italian because of the conquests of Rome. English spread more recently and is giving birth to unique languages for the same reason. English was a bastard language during the Norman Conquest of England when French held sway.

The notion of a language being better than another is all ideology. All human languages are equal for the need that they have evolved to fill. We might be better at teaching english if we didn't treat patois as broken english. CXC results tell us that the current approach isn't being all that successful. Patois has grammar, tenses etc and we should leverage most Jamaicans' ready knowledge of it to enforce the equaivalent concepts in english.

It is a valid and active means of communication within our culture and we should recognize that rather than hyproctically marketing 'irie' t-shirts and reggae to foreigners while denigrating our language at home. The change in attitude this poll seems to indicate is good news to me.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

They introduced the same paralelle language in Haiti in the late 60's and what happened is that instead of studenrs being educated in both language,it evolve to the easiest language wnich is Creole. Well the result is that the majority of sunsiquently educated Haitians,does not understand French. They essentually are illiterate outside of the country. Not on;ly that,their education is limited to only knowledge available in Creole.
During the 80's I had the experience of meeting many young Haitiabs that came to Jamaica to kearn English,but had to fiest learn french,because it was impossible to teach a language to a person that does not understand the labnguage you are communicating in.

the main difference with Haitian immigtants in The US and Jamaican immigrants,is that Jamaicans speak and understand english to a much greater degree than Haitian immigrant,and as a result can immidiately take advantage of higher education on landing in the country.
I reminded me of an economic principle,that stated that bad money will always drive out good money if any attempt is made to have them co-exist in circulation.
It is the same will happen more and more students will be taught on only patous,and eventually it will drive out the more difficult language,and Jamaicans will eventually be taught in patois,and will essenrually be illiterate outside of the country.
How long they have been trying to quiet us,and in one fell swoop the UWI that dompletely the social fabric of the country want to do it now.
Eveluating patois will cause essentual illiteracy.
As I say one must aquire knowledge of reprocussion before making statement based on what others are saying.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Then when they staff al the hotels with speakers of the languages of the guests,there will be very few JaMAICANS employed.
Colonialism through the back door,if you ask me.
Though you did not!!

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] They introduced the same paralelle language in Haiti in the late 60's and what happened is that instead of studenrs being educated in both language,it evolve to the easiest language wnich is Creole. Well the result is that the majority of sunsiquently educated Haitians,does not understand French. They essentually are illiterate outside of the country. Not on;ly that,their education is limited to only knowledge available in Creole.

You seem to have made the evaluation that French is better than Kreole. What is the basis for that? The schools in Haiti taught in French and most of the people learn Kreol natively. It's a discriminatory system. That is the basis of illiteracy. The language that the people speak from their cradle isn't recognized so they have no voice.

This is nothing new. In Europe important government documents etc were kept in Latin long after the people in general started speaking vernaculars derived from but different from Latin. There was objection to putting the Bible in languages that people actually spoke. The man who first translaed the Bible to english did so under penalty of death.

During the 80's I had the experience of meeting many young Haitiabs that came to Jamaica to kearn English,but had to fiest learn french,because it was impossible to teach a language to a person that does not understand the labnguage you are communicating in.

Yeah, and if you were teaching Japanese people you'd have to learn Japanese. The only reason the Haitians had to learn French first is due to the ideology that Kreole is inferior/incomplete French. Why didn't you learn Kreole in order to communicate with them? Why shouldn't Hatian children be taught in Kreole if it's the language they learn from the cradle?

the main difference with Haitian immigtants in The US and Jamaican immigrants,is that Jamaicans speak and understand english to a much greater degree than Haitian immigrant,and as a result can immidiately take advantage of higher education on landing in the country.

Knowing the language of power is advantageous. Hispanics have trouble in the US not becuase spanish is inferior but becuase they don't know the language of power. That shouldn't suggest that Spanish is the root of poverty and should be eradicated in lands where it is spoken as part of their culture.

I reminded me of an economic principle,that stated that bad money will always drive out good money if any attempt is made to have them co-exist in circulation.
It is the same will happen more and more students will be taught on only patous,and eventually it will drive out the more difficult language,and Jamaicans will eventually be taught in patois,and will essenrually be illiterate outside of the country.
How long they have been trying to quiet us,and in one fell swoop the UWI that dompletely the social fabric of the country want to do it now.
Eveluating patois will cause essentual illiteracy.
As I say one must aquire knowledge of reprocussion before making statement based on what others are saying.

You don't seem to believe that people can be bilingual. Many people are. In fact, people from all over the world and from places not traditionally associated with english learn it along with their native tongue. Jamaicans will speak patois whether it's official or not. The only difference is when we pretend it doesn't exist we exclude others and devalue ourselves. We also impede further development of the language such as a standard writing system etc.

I believe that official recognition of Jamaican (Patois) is inevitable. It is the language of Jamaica. This is a fact.

[mari]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by Dr.Dudd:
[qb] During the 80's I had the experience of meeting many young Haitiabs that came to Jamaica to kearn English,but had to fiest learn french,because it was impossible to teach a language to a person that does not understand the labnguage you are communicating in.

[/qb]

I disagree. I have made the experience that the quickest way to learn a language is from someone who does not understand your own language, because if you want to communicate, you have to learn.

I've seen language classes with people from e.g. ten different countries, speaking ten different languages. The language teacher communicates only in the language being taught, because it would be impossible for him/her to communicate with all the students in their own language even if he could.

Everyone goes to school to learn his/her own language properly, and there are many bi/multilingual countries in the world. Switzerland speaks French, German and Italian, Belgium speaks French and Flemish, Canada French and English etc. Most people from these countries are bi/multilingual and there is no problem with this.

I think Recognizing patois as a language and teaching it in our schools would most positively be the same.

[Guest]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Bway, mi like yuh stylee Andronian. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70365-flirt.gif[/img]

[barosa]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by Andronian:

I disagree.

Making patois an official language doesn't mean that english is going to disappear. Jamaica isn't necesarily going to become mono-lingual. Look at Puerto Rico (where both Spanish and English are official but most people speak Spanish) and Haiti (where both French and Kreole are official). Puerto Rico has been a US dependency for since 1898 so why do they still speak spanish in the main? Because it's part of their culture and history and they are proud of it.

I fail to see what you are disagreeing with! No one is saying that "Jamaican Patwa" should not become an official language if Jamaicans desire it be so. At the moment it is not there yet for obvious reasons and besides, no one is against people being bilingual or multi-lingual. See the part (italic) of your quote in response to Doc:

You don't seem to believe that people can be bilingual. Many people are. In fact, people from all over the world and from places not traditionally associated with english learn it along with their native tongue. Jamaicans will speak patois whether it's official or not. The only difference is when we pretend it doesn't exist we exclude others and devalue ourselves. We also impede further development of the language such as a standard writing system etc.

I believe that official recognition of Jamaican (Patois) is inevitable. It is the language of Jamaica. This is a fact.

-----------------
We shall see but a little way if we require to understand what we see : Henry David Thoreau

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

You seem to have made the evaluation that French is better than Kreole. What is the basis for that?

French is better than Kreole.
In that lanbuage is a tiil of communication and knowledge aquaystion.
there is a much wider audience to communicate inm Fremch that there is in Kreole,and there is a greater repository pof knowledge assessible in French than there is in Kreole.
how ould you like to chose to learm either of those language as a tool of economics.or music,or culture,ot hjistory,whay about geogtaphy. Do you think you could finmd as large a volume of texts written in Kreole in iether of those areas,as you could find in french?

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

there is a much wider audience to communicate inm Fremch

Well all a wi fi jus ki back wi mout now an jus staat learn chinese. More people speak chinese than any other language so if you want to communicate with the most people...learn chinese.

and there is a greater repository pof knowledge assessible in French than there is in Kreole. how ould you like to chose to learm either of those language as a tool of economics.or music,or culture,ot hjistory,whay about geogtaphy. Do you think you could finmd as large a volume of texts written in Kreole in iether of those areas,as you could find in french?

This wasn't always the case for French. In fact, if latin coservatives had their way it would never have been the case. Hell, even english was once viewed as being unsuitable for expressing the knowledge that can be expressed in French.

There's no intrinsic property of any language that makes it superior to any other. They are always capable of expressing anything the speakers wish to express. These evaluations are usually based on money, politics, racism, social status etc. Since the people who speak creole languages in the caribbean (like the hatians) are usually poor and relatively powerless their languages are viewed with the same contempt the people are viewed with.

Your first language is not something you're formally taught. You almost inherit it from hearing people around you speak it. So if Hatians speak Kreole, they ought to be literate in it and facilities of the state should be made available in it. It's kind of twisted to say: your language is bad, here is a better one....lol, when it has been serving the people for centuries! Reminds me of what the slave masters did to the Africans...

The advantage of learning a new language is to communicate with people currently outside of your realm of mutual comprehensibility. That's the advantage of knowing english. That's why I'm learning Spanish, not because English and Patois have some expressive deficiencies. Therefore, I don't see how officially recognizing and supporting a language that we already speak in, sing in, perform plays in and recite poems in can be a bad thing.

[Andronian]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by BlackStar:
[qb] Bway, mi like yuh stylee Andronian. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/70365-flirt.gif[/img] [/qb]

Mi love argue tu much.
Yu can imagine how it used to get mi inna trouble wid some a mi tiicha dem... [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

All in all, mi like a spirited discussion.

[mountaingal]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Originally posted by Andronian:
[qb] I believe that official recognition of Jamaican (Patois) is inevitable. It is the language of Jamaica. This is a fact. [/qb]

true. i've noticed myself that when you say something to Jamaican children in Standard English and say the same thing in patwa, the comprehension level is significantly higher for patwa. i've also said before on the board that i've spoken to Jamaican teachers who find it helps their students to explain "harder" subjects in patwa, in accompaniment to the reading of the English text.

In my opinion, what's preventing the work to take patwa all the way to a standard language are ingrained colonial attitudes towards it - about it being a lesser language and related to illiteracy. also, it's a language born out of our slavery experience, and i think that still causes shame.

[Dr.Dudd]

Re: Majority favour patois as an official language of Ja

Well all a wi fi jus ki back wi mout now an jus staat learn chinese. More people speak chinese than any other language so if you want to communicate with the most people...learn chinese.
This is very childish. Why would a language that is as widely used even be included in this conversation.
How many countries speak "Chinese"?
and just incase you are not aware,there amre many languaues spoken in China,and all chinese does not speak one language,neither dose more than a few lingusits speak all the shinese language.
they are ,orec likely to speak English.
Insidentally this is mot a hogh schol denate,it is about reality and the future on Jamaica. I know that some of you really have motices other than what ius the best for the majority,abd of coutse creatibg a fivision in language is the most effective way,since race division does seem to be so effective.
This talk anout teaching patois,smack of the old days of teaching the slaves that education make people vile,and beong illiterate is beyyer for them
hpow many of you would honestly send youchild ro be educvated in a language that is only spoken in one country,even id it is Chimese??.